Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: Anonymous 2 ( )
Date: June 12, 2018 02:05PM

Teacher Says He Was Forced to Resign After Refusing to Call Transgender Student by Preferred Name

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Heidi GWOTR ( )
Date: June 12, 2018 02:54PM

One word. Good!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Turd ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 02:05PM

Yes, by all means let's tyrannize everyone into submission.
This pick-your-own-pronoun fascism is a pile of horseshit.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: MCR ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 02:26PM

Absolutely wrong. I've a friend named, Jared--named after Jaredites. Now, if I were his teacher and refused to call him Jared on the grounds that Jeredites never existed, and I called him something else that suited me more, I should be fired. If you're a teacher, you call kids what their parents tell you to call them. You don't get to dictate other people's families.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: jthomas ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 03:06PM

I agree while at your job. But places like Canada who have already passed laws and even some parts of the US trying to pass laws that you can be fined and even jailed for using the wrong pronoun when addressing people. Thats insane, and a violation of OUR first amendment.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2018 03:07PM by jthomas.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 03:31PM

Do you have examples of these "laws" I'd really like to know what they really say since nothing of what you've said would pass even the first court case.

ETA: Keep in mind that all kinds of laws are proposed, many of them have major constitutional issues. it doesn't mean that they will make it to actually being a law. An those laws that have constitutional issues are usually thrown out by the courts very quickly (you can use any of many attempts to violate the separation of church and state as examples). There are very few and rare cases where freedom of speech is limited, names and pronouns would not fall in any of those categories, and attempts to "legalize" such a thing would almost certainly fail in any court. Which is why I'm very curious as to what you're talking about, because it sounds like fodder for Fox News mis-interpreting something that's probably unrelated.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2018 04:20PM by Finally Free!.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 04:19PM

I'd like to see those examples, too.

This is another argument that seems incredible.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 05:07PM

Thank you for providing this source, which enables us to check the argument.

Having done so, I am not convinced. You may be right, but so far it doesn't seem so. The law is designed to protect people from discrimination based on their gender identity. It only applies, incidentally, to the government and industries within the government's direct purview.

The notion that the law dictates the use of pronouns traces back to a single professor: Jordan Peterson of the University of Toronto. The consensus is that his reading is incorrect, that the law does not dictate the use of pronouns. I have looked but can find no court case that supports Johnson's interpretation of the law. If you can provide such, I would be grateful. As for now, however, there appears to be little foundation for Johnson's assertion that the law requires people to use certain pronouns in certain situations.

You mentioned that some US states have also passed laws governing the use of pronouns. I'm skeptical of that, too, since it would be unconstitutional. But if you have evidence, I'd like to see it.

Thanks, sincerely, for providing the link. It makes meaningful discussion possible.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 12:01PM

I'm from the US, so I'll admit that I don't have a full understanding of how this law and how it applies to their notion of Free Speech.

That disclaimer said...

According to Wikipedia:

"The law amends the Canadian Human Rights Act by adding "gender identity or expression" as a prohibited ground of discrimination.[7] That makes it illegal to deny services, employment, accommodation and similar benefits to individuals based on their gender identity or gender expression within a federal regulated industry. A person who denies benefits because of the gender identity or gender expression of another person could be liable to provide monetary reimbursement. This prohibition would only apply to matters within federal jurisdiction."

As far as I can tell based on this, and other sources, this does not in any way make misstating a pronoun an illegal act. It does make gender expression protected under Canada's discrimination laws. To say that "you can be fined and even jailed for using the wrong pronoun" seems like an exaggeration.

However, again, I'm not all that familiar with Canadian Law, but this doesn't sound like Free Speech is impeded at all.

I really would be interested to hear about the laws that are proposed in the US, if there really are any laws that have a shot at becoming law that somehow blocks free speech, I'd be interested to see how they plan on accomplishing that. What I suspect is that there are laws being proposed to make Gender identification a protected class similar to what Canada seems to be doing (similar to how race is a protected class). This seems an obvious extension of existing laws protecting against discrimination based on sex. If that's the case, then I'm all for it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 01:01PM

This seems right. There is no evidence, that I can see, that Canada has banned the use of any pronouns.

I can't find, either, any suggestion that any state in the US is considering such--and even if something like that were attempted, it would be unconstitutional.

The article on Canada boils down to a single source, and subsequent events do not substantiate his claim. It appears there is nothing to this story.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: sbg ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 10:33PM

I had a teacher who insisted my given was a nick name and changed it to suit her beliefs. I just refused to answer. When she called my parents in for a conversation she was set straight. Teachers do NOT get to rename students. My idiot teacher was working in the 1960’s

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 05:02PM

Teachers always fall back on school district policy. You don't even have to think about it. And if for some reason you think the policy is wrong, there are official avenues to protest it (i.e. through your union or the school board.)

Part of the problem is the English language. Other languages can have gender-neutral pronouns, but English does not. Instead we sometimes recruit the very awkward "they" and "their" when referring to one person. I would like to see English introduce an appropriate gender neutral pronoun. That might help some people who prefer not to have to select between he/she, or him/her.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 12, 2018 03:02PM

Look for the word "essentially" in the following sentence.

"John Kluge, the former orchestra teacher at Brownsburg High School, says he was essentially fired for refusing to call a transgender student by their preferred name."

But, Ms. Brown, I essentially did my homework.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: June 12, 2018 11:56PM

I have met a number of trans-people, and I don't envy them. There have been some who transitioned very well. You would never guess, on meeting them, that they had started out in the other gender. But there are a LOT of people on the other side of the equation.
I will never forget the guy (well, he started out as a guy) who spent THOUSANDS of dollars on gender-reassignment surgery and plastic surgery, trying to go from M to F.

But the odds were massively against him. He was well over 6 feet tall, and he had the beginning of male-pattern hair loss. No matter how hard he tried, his deep voice would never have passed for female.

I heard through the grapevine that after about a year of trying to pass for female, plus being mostly unemployed, the individual eventually committed suicide.

Professionally, I dealt with people in accordance with their expressed gender preference. I think that is only decent manners.

I don't think it's a matter of "going through a phase." Most people are aware, before they even go to school, which gender they are. Finding yourself in a body that doesn't correspond to your beliefs about yourself strikes me as tragic.

I've heard people say, "Oh, he/she is just trying to get attention." I don't think so. The attention you tend to get in this situation is not generally what anyone would want.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: lachesis ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 12:07AM

Seriously? There’s a religion that dictates what names you can call people? Makes the Mormon coffee thing look small in comparison.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 01:26AM

"Kluge, 28, said he submitted a tentative resignation letter last month because officials threatened to fire him. Kluge attempted to rescind his resignation on May 25, but it was already being processed."

You don't send a "tentative" resignation letter. You resign or you don't. He was in violation of school district policy for the next school year. So he would have been fired eventually. It sounds like he regrets not making this a legal and/or political fight.

What surprises me is that one news article said that there are several transgender students in the school's orchestra. I wouldn't think it would be that common.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: nevermojohn ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 01:53AM

So, I guess he also doesn't call people by their nick names.

Funny how losing your paycheck can change your attitude about treating people politely.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 02:15AM

I don't think he changed his attitude. He might be a better fit in a religious school.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 02:12AM

The whole proper labeling thing is weird.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: NevermoinIdaho ( )
Date: June 15, 2018 08:45AM

Seems simple enough to me - call people what they want to be called.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: FNQ sparky ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 08:38AM

Just another self righteous religion nutter banging the gong about his religious beliefs
He's paid by a school to do a job of teaching music to students, it's not his call on how to address students
If he has religious problems, leave them in the car park before coming to work, no one should be affected by his attitude, particularly a abhorrent sexist and disrespectful one.
Good to see fairness prevail and he's out of the picture
Sad that these types are so full of themselves, they can't see the error of their ways.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Aquarius123 ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 12:19PM

That is so ridiculous. A gigantic douche like he is should not be teaching.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: midwestanon ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 04:42PM

This whole thing reeks of this guys incompetence, wishy-washiness, and being a massive boob.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Aquarius123 ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 12:10PM

midwestanon Wrote:
> This whole thing reeks of this guys incompetence,
> wishy-washiness, and being a massive boob.

A massive boob!!!! Hahahahahaha

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 04:54PM

If a student says he or she goes by Billy instead of William or Becky instead of Rebecca or Debbie instead of Deborah, does that violate a religious belief?

No, it doesn't.

The most likely reason is that for some reason he'd rather not have trans kids in his class but he can't do that so he makes up some religious excuse.

Think about it.

If someone kept calling you something that you objected to you'd wonder why they were doing it -- just to annoy you.

This has nothing to do with religion.

It's just an excuse.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: matt ( )
Date: June 15, 2018 08:46PM

I knew someone who decided he would rather be a woman than a man and went through gender reassignment surgery.

After about two years, he decided that his gender reassignment surgery had been a mistake so he had to have corrective surgery to re-reassign himself as a male.

He changed his name and his sexual designation twice.

I felt very sorry for him, as it really caused terrible problems for him, with his health.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 15, 2018 08:50PM

Giving everyone freedom to make their own life choices doesn't mean that they will make the right decisions for themselves. The question is whether they, or society or some other "other," are better situated to try.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In

Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 ********  ********  **     **  ********   ******** 
 **    **     **     **     **  **     **  **       
     **       **     **     **  **     **  **       
    **        **     **     **  ********   ******   
   **         **     **     **  **         **       
   **         **     **     **  **         **       
   **         **      *******   **         **