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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 04:29PM

Pyschiatrist says i am very religiously conflicted and am at a mental road block that i can not seem to get passed. Thanks for stating the obvious. So she gave me a phone number to a christian based counselor to help me sort things out to help me figure out who i really am and what i believe in. Always liked the idea of what christ should have been, not the handshake guy he became. Anyone that puts pharisee type of people in their place and not be a sellout handshake guy gets my respect. Don't like what christ became though, real or not. He had potential though to be someone great.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 06:20PM

ziller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> in b 4 ~ good idea OPie ~
>
>
> https://youtu.be/HMzZYkEGywI?list=PLMdRLqaXxozoRDu
> 47nzyO_wJeqOh7ihSj

Might as well, got nothing to lose.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 05:35PM

Another option might be finding a counselor who is either exmo or used to working with exmos.

Keep in mind that you don't have to figure out what you do or do not believe all at once. It can be a journey. But do keep in mind that Christianity was around (and functioning very successfully) long before Mormonism came along.

A good place to start is with the New Testament. This is the bedrock of mainstream Christianity. Read it to get the faithful understanding of what Jesus means to mainstream Christians. Then if you wish, read some commentary by New Testament scholars such as Bart Ehrman, which will give you another point of view.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 06:18PM

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another option might be finding a counselor who is
> either exmo or used to working with exmos.
>
> Keep in mind that you don't have to figure out
> what you do or do not believe all at once. It can
> be a journey. But do keep in mind that
> Christianity was around (and functioning very
> successfully) long before Mormonism came along.
>
> A good place to start is with the New Testament.
> This is the bedrock of mainstream Christianity.
> Read it to get the faithful understanding of what
> Jesus means to mainstream Christians. Then if you
> wish, read some commentary by New Testament
> scholars such as Bart Ehrman, which will give you
> another point of view.

New testament was always my favorite of any scriptures growing up. It actually made more sense than any of the others.

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Posted by: BYU Boner ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 09:51PM

Badass, be careful with the “Christian” counselor. Some so-called Christian counselors are very judgmental. If you sense judgment or non-support for you as a person, drop that counselor.

Any good counselor should help you come to an understanding of YOUR values, hopes, and beliefs. If, in the course of things, you identify with a faith tradition, make sure it aligns with who the real Badass is. I love you, man! The Boner.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 10:10PM

BYU Boner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Badass, be careful with the “Christian”
> counselor. Some so-called Christian counselors are
> very judgmental. If you sense judgment or
> non-support for you as a person, drop that
> counselor.
>
> Any good counselor should help you come to an
> understanding of YOUR values, hopes, and beliefs.
> If, in the course of things, you identify with a
> faith tradition, make sure it aligns with who the
> real Badass is. I love you, man! The Boner.

Why would my psychiatrist recommend this boner? I don't really know totally who the badass actually is without the mind screw in his head. She said they could dissect my thoughts because half of me is against the other half. Both halves are different. They both believe different things. I think one side is the brainwashed side and the other side is the logical side or something. I have no clue what to do sometimes man i am just going off of what the professionals say to do. The christian counselor could know how my mind got programmed a certain way my psychiatrist said. Maybe some experience in cult deprogramming.

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 10:11PM

Edited for clarity: My concern is that you might swap one belief system for another without addressing the one you left first.

How can I say this without pissing people off?

I often wonder how people can think themselves out of one belief system only to embrace another one that is also, um, hard to believe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2018 10:15PM by Beth.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 10:17PM

Beth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Edited for clarity: My concern is that you might
> swap one belief system for another without
> addressing the one you left first.
>
> How can I say this without pissing people off?
>
> I often wonder how people can think themselves out
> of one belief system only to embrace another one
> that is also, um, hard to believe.

Whatever it is it has to be strong.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 12:22AM

I agree with Beth. How about an unaffiliated therapist?

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 02:02AM

That’s assuming that you can fully extract yourself from Judeo Christian culture, even if you leave Mormonism behind. It’s so ingrained that you might as well roll with the good parts.

Just because you got food poisoning doesn’t mean all food is bad.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 03:35AM

Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That’s assuming that you can fully extract
> yourself from Judeo Christian culture, even if you
> leave Mormonism behind. It’s so ingrained that
> you might as well roll with the good parts.
>
> Just because you got food poisoning doesn’t mean
> all food is bad.

That's what she was kind of saying keeping the good parts that made me my actual self and cutting out the garbage.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 04:06AM

As much as I hate to admit it, Mormonism trained me to want to “do the right thing”. I got some mileage out of that. I never imagined doing the right thing would involve blowing apart my belief system and rebuilding it from scratch.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 01:00PM

Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As much as I hate to admit it, Mormonism trained
> me to want to “do the right thing”. I got some
> mileage out of that. I never imagined doing the
> right thing would involve blowing apart my belief
> system and rebuilding it from scratch.

The right thing was ingrained in me as well. I swear i was too good to demean myself by playing dress up and doing handshakes. The badass deserves more than that crap.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 01:24PM

It’s got to be the height of irony that they carve “The glory of God is intelligence” into the very building where they do all that stupid shit.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 01:31PM

Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It’s got to be the height of irony that they
> carve “The glory of God is intelligence” into
> the very building where they do all that stupid
> shit.

Hahaha exactly!! The GLORY of god is intelligence, now lets all act like a bunch of idiots with an IQ of 5.

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Posted by: BYU Boner ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 10:23PM

Just a guess—maybe to help you find a resolution regarding religion. From your posts, you seem to be conflicted about God/religion. My hope for you is clarity regarding your views. You may decide all religion is bullshit; you may determine that you do have faith in a higher power. Or, you may come to very different conclusions.

What my concern is, I do not want you to be bullied by either position. Sort things out according to your views. True friends will accept and love you for who you are—not what your views are on religion.

Mormonism taught us that love is very conditional—that we must believe and act according to Mormon teachings or we’d be damned and become unloveable apostates—fuck that!

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 11:46PM

BYU Boner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just a guess—maybe to help you find a resolution
> regarding religion. From your posts, you seem to
> be conflicted about God/religion. My hope for you
> is clarity regarding your views. You may decide
> all religion is bullshit; you may determine that
> you do have faith in a higher power. Or, you may
> come to very different conclusions.
>
> What my concern is, I do not want you to be
> bullied by either position. Sort things out
> according to your views. True friends will accept
> and love you for who you are—not what your views
> are on religion.
>
> Mormonism taught us that love is very
> conditional—that we must believe and act
> according to Mormon teachings or we’d be damned
> and become unloveable apostates—fuck that!

Based on my life i should not believe in anything to be honest. I do want to believe in a higher power that supports me for a change even if there isn't one. Lord knows it seemed like god favored my family over me for most of my life. Them and that stupid religion. I always hoped their god would get caught up in his own glory and get sideswiped by someone that gave a crap and started supporting guys like me for a change. It's always been clear that i will have to become my own god if i am to get well totally. Nobody can do it for me.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 01:57AM

If the therapist is liberal and accepting, it could be a good thing to explore the issue. Be careful of dogmatic and controlling people. Maybe you can find out a little bit more about the new therapist from the one you are seeing now. Give it a try. If it isnt a good fit, stop going after you have given it a fair chance.You dont have to decide what you believe right now. Take your time and dont rush into anything

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 03:39AM

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the therapist is liberal and accepting, it
> could be a good thing to explore the issue. Be
> careful of dogmatic and controlling people. Maybe
> you can find out a little bit more about the new
> therapist from the one you are seeing now. Give it
> a try. If it isnt a good fit, stop going after you
> have given it a fair chance.You dont have to
> decide what you believe right now. Take your time
> and dont rush into anything

Alright i won't rush this, i am more curious more than anything of what she can do that is different than what i have already done. Like has she helped people that were born in a cult before type of thing.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 12:21AM

BYU-B: "Any good counselor should help you come to an understanding of YOUR values, hopes, and beliefs."

This was my central thought but he can say it shorter.

This is pivotal. It's not about what others believe or think - even the best of counsellors can't truly get into a client's head. What people with strong beliefs (religious or secular) think best for you may turn out not to be so. I have found that all too often people can say the worst things.


BAA: Why would my psychiatrist recommend this boner? I don't really know totally who the badass actually is without the mind screw in his head.

I think this is something you could do at least partially on your own (finding yourself; it's actually a quest that most people make - separating from one's upbringing and striking out on their own to discover the world). Not saying to ditch counselling but rather than being a passive recipient, take independent action as well. There is a whole world out there, in reality and online, in which there is plenty of information to help inform oneself. You can be at least a 50/50 partner with your therapist and ideally even the one in control where you take what helps and push the rest aside (although with reason for your choices).


BAA: "She said they could dissect my thoughts because half of me is against the other half. Both halves are different. They both believe different things. I think one side is the brainwashed side and the other side is the logical side or something."

Dissection - sounds painful. I don't really get what she's saying. Many of us are complex, with many conflicting thoughts and desires. I wouldn't actually take it literally, that your brain is divided into two in terms of beliefs or knowledge, as if therapy is going to "fix" one side and banish the other.

You said, "...i am just going off of what the professionals say to do."

Uh - see BYU-B's comments again. I suggest taking charge of the therapy in terms of you listening to suggestions but making a rational decision yourself, based on thought and information and careful selection, as to what makes the best sense to you. I would NOT just follow a suggestion because they gave it. It's like you're saying you know nothing and they know everything. Take suggestions. Do research. Think it over. Talk to others - possibly in different discussion arenas. Etc. So you can make the best choices for yourself, not just from what the therapist postulates for you. It's not entirely her job to come up with the best way forward. Some input and thought from you would likely be more beneficial for you for several reasons.

"The christian counselor could know how my mind got programmed a certain way my psychiatrist said. Maybe some experience in cult deprogramming."

That was the second thought I had, in addition to the first one I mentioned above. That is a good idea - the cult deprogramming thing. If you talk to someone about that you may be amazed at how helpful it can be. I believe that gaining information and understanding can go a long way towards sorting out for yourself what happened, why, and how to deal with it. I think someone mentioned that the other day and it sounds good.

As for the Christian counsellor idea, you say they "could know". Exactly. Perhaps they wouldn't. If your counsellor, who knows you at least somewhat by now, thinks it is a good idea, s/he could ask around and check her resources and find someone who would be on point for you to talk to, which would be a lot more helpful than saying they may, they might, they could. Your therapist should not, imho, send you off blindly somewhere on the basis of "maybe they could" help. She should have a reasonable expectation that the person she recommends is qualified in the area she thinks you need. Whether even that person will help you is something nobody will know until you try it.

I'll say again for the second time today, I'm not an expert by any means, in anything at all really. But. I would be cautious about going to someone merely on the basis of what their brand of religion is, or just because they have one. In fact, if it were a therapist of mine who recommended that, my spidey senses would go off. That's because it indicates somewhat to me that your counsellor maybe doesn't understand your issues or the reasons for them or what to do in which case that suggestion could be very counterproductive. I mean that perhaps, s/he thinks it's a good idea to try it, without the counsellor knowing that it could make things worse in your case.

It's not unknown that a counsellor wouldn't know how to proceed or just isn't the best fit or most valuable resource for a certain client. I would not 100% count on the therapist to make the best suggestion and then you just follow it because it was the therapist who made it. I'd put some thought into the idea myself and maybe determine/find the best type of helper for my needs. You may have to go through a few to find one that suits you.

I think I know what Beth is saying above (hi Beth!) I had that thought too (if we're on the same wavelength). It kind of clangs that s/he thinks because you were in a "cult" then a Christian can help you. This is the second reason I get the sense your therapist may not know much about "cults" or growing up Mormon. It is a specialized area and a counsellor doesn't necessarily know a lot in-depth about every type of problem clients come in with, so I'm not faulting her/him. But just because a therapist is a Christian or has any other religious faith, does not mean they can know how to help you because you are "conflicted" over religion, as your current therapist says. Rather, anyone, atheist or religious, who is trained to help people with that particular type of issue would be a good professional to consult.

Too, you may get a lot of insight quite quickly just from reading online about cults. A lot of people here through the years have said that type of info really helped them to understand their situation.

You seem desperate for information and insight. There's a lot of it out there. It might be amazing how much a little knowledge could help you. Look it up! Try Steven Hassan re cults. A former RfM poster, Blair Watson, wrote about cults, if I'm recalling correctly. Eric (board owner) may have preserved his work in the archives. Check it out.

When I as a Mormon convert was "conflicted" due to not believing some of the stuff and not making any friends (both making me feel bad about myself - until I realized at last that it's not you, stupid!) the bishop sent me to the church psychologist. Silly me, I attended. Hated the guy on sight. Things didn't improve. He ate his supper at his desk all through our session! Uh huh. Real interested. He, in turn, became hostile with my first sentence ("I have a problem with the church"). Guess he took it personally. He was unfriendly and miserable through the whole 35 minutes he gave me. Not helpful. His first response to me was "We're not working from a position of strength here". That makes me laugh now.

The bishop did me a favour actually as after that uncomfortable session, I went out the church doors, skipped across the lawn, and told myself "I don't have to go back". What a revelation. Crazy how something so simple and obvious took me three yrs to figure out. I had felt compelled to stay, despite having numerous bad experiences in the church, because I gave too much weight to having been baptized. I felt bound by my commitment. Once those ties loosened, it was easy to leave and instantly no more need for a follow up psych appointment. Miracle cure.

When I subsequently returned to the denomination I was going to prior to my Mormon interlude, the pastor (who I didn't know) immediately pulled out his Bible and started reading scripture to me. I was lucky that he was informed about Mormonism and also was quite middle-of-the-road despite his more fundamentalist church. But. Not so many people realize how just diving into their beliefs doesn't help when a person needs expert counselling or even deprogramming (I didn't need either, fortunately for me, but many who have left controlling groups do. Lucky for me I wasn't exposed for long and had had a pre-mo life to refer back to so the LDS programming didn't take for me anyway).

My point is that obviously a Mormon bishop is going to recommend seeing a Mormon counsellor. A Christian probably thinks a fellow Christian is best. Maybe an atheist therapist would say avoid them all! But there are many fabulous therapists out there who can be objective no matter their own beliefs. The trick is to find one like that. A tall order perhaps. Might take visiting a few or getting an informed recommendation.

See? Told ya BYU-B was quicker.

But that's what I think, with a few detours.

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 01:09AM

Hi, Nighty!

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 01:38AM

Beth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi, Nighty!

Really smart. I just need an expert on children born in cults and what it did to their thinking processes or something. How to reverse it all or something. Undo what the cult did basically so i can live a somewhat normal life if possible.

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Posted by: exminion ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 04:24AM

Best. Advice. Ever. From Boner and Nightingale!

There's nothing to add, except that my spidey senses are going off about your therapist. Find a new one who will be neutral.

When I left the cult, I new which parts of it that, for me, were absolutely unbelievable, and there were enough of those lies, for me to reject the cult and the culture and most of the Mormons, themselves. Not to mention the Mormon abuse we suffered. This was so traumatic, that I made the deliberate, calming decision to continue to believe in the God of the New Testament. Not the MorGod, because there's a huge difference. Not the Mormons' interpretation of the teachings of Christ, either. Mormonism was defunct. Gone!

You want instant gratification, Adam, and finding a personal belief system might take years. Ten years out, and I'm still working on it. I have attended many churches and all were better than the Mormon church! No cults, of course. I've taken a little bit of insight from some of them, including Judaism and Buddhism. I've been studying philosophy, which has helped open my mind to other ideas. Each new idea that can be applied to bettering my life and helping others has made me more confident, stable, and peaceful.

Like everyone says, all this helps you learn more about yourself. The first important thing I learned is that I have PTSD, and not depression. Has your therapist given you a diagnosis?

The second important thing I learned is that I'm better off NOT joining another religious group. Going to church triggers my flashbacks too much. I can still pray, life a good life, teach my kids and grandkids morals, ethics, kindness, love, and all that good stuff. Who needs organized religion?

My therapist is a Psychiatrist, an MD, who is highly respected. He was recommended to me by a trusted friend, who is a child psychiatrist. I honestly couldn't tell you what religion he is! I do know he is NOT Mormon, and never was. I do know that he thinks Mormonism is a hoax, and is big business, and that's about it. Being a psychiatrist in SLC, he has worked with many adults who are and were Mormons. My problems I have are problems found in and out of religions: PTSD, anxiety, child abuse, spousal abuse, criticism, lack of love, blame and guilt, abandonment, fear, superstition, toxic relationships, authoritarian parents, psychopaths trying to use/destroy me, pain management. Wow, that's enough, without going into the specific Mormon lies, the Mormon social structure, the shunning, and petty junk like that. Hah, that's what RFM is for.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 01:13PM

exminion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Best. Advice. Ever. From Boner and Nightingale!
>
> There's nothing to add, except that my spidey
> senses are going off about your therapist. Find a
> new one who will be neutral.
>
> When I left the cult, I new which parts of it
> that, for me, were absolutely unbelievable, and
> there were enough of those lies, for me to reject
> the cult and the culture and most of the Mormons,
> themselves. Not to mention the Mormon abuse we
> suffered. This was so traumatic, that I made the
> deliberate, calming decision to continue to
> believe in the God of the New Testament. Not the
> MorGod, because there's a huge difference. Not
> the Mormons' interpretation of the teachings of
> Christ, either. Mormonism was defunct. Gone!
>
> You want instant gratification, Adam, and finding
> a personal belief system might take years. Ten
> years out, and I'm still working on it. I have
> attended many churches and all were better than
> the Mormon church! No cults, of course. I've
> taken a little bit of insight from some of them,
> including Judaism and Buddhism. I've been
> studying philosophy, which has helped open my
> mind to other ideas. Each new idea that can be
> applied to bettering my life and helping others
> has made me more confident, stable, and peaceful.
>
> Like everyone says, all this helps you learn more
> about yourself. The first important thing I
> learned is that I have PTSD, and not depression.
> Has your therapist given you a diagnosis?
>
> The second important thing I learned is that I'm
> better off NOT joining another religious group.
> Going to church triggers my flashbacks too much.
> I can still pray, life a good life, teach my kids
> and grandkids morals, ethics, kindness, love, and
> all that good stuff. Who needs organized
> religion?
>
> My therapist is a Psychiatrist, an MD, who is
> highly respected. He was recommended to me by a
> trusted friend, who is a child psychiatrist. I
> honestly couldn't tell you what religion he is! I
> do know he is NOT Mormon, and never was. I do
> know that he thinks Mormonism is a hoax, and is
> big business, and that's about it. Being a
> psychiatrist in SLC, he has worked with many
> adults who are and were Mormons. My problems I
> have are problems found in and out of religions:
> PTSD, anxiety, child abuse, spousal abuse,
> criticism, lack of love, blame and guilt,
> abandonment, fear, superstition, toxic
> relationships, authoritarian parents, psychopaths
> trying to use/destroy me, pain management. Wow,
> that's enough, without going into the specific
> Mormon lies, the Mormon social structure, the
> shunning, and petty junk like that. Hah, that's
> what RFM is for.

We have a lot in common. I was eventually diagnosed with PTSD but it is definitely of a religious kind of PTSD. I get triggered just driving by churches let alone being in one. I was mad at god for a long time but in my mind yesterday i realized this anger is not helping me. I want to be as healthy as my therapist and i think that i can do it with more time. She made me realize that maybe i should team up with the god of the new testament to get through all this. Doing things alone is just way too tough. I barely know who i am really besides a survivor of the worst circumstances. You can label any characteristic about me but that really is not who i am. I keep it simple these days, i'm just a man in physical pain trying to get out of physical pain.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 06:17PM

First, a friendly point: You don't have to quote an entire post to respond to it, BAA. Just hit the 'reply' option rather than the 'quote' option. Unless you want to quote the whole thing, that is.


You said:

>She [therapist] made me realize that maybe i should team up >with the god of the new testament to get through all this.

Please tell us that is not a direct quote from her. "Team up with the god of the new testament"?

It would seem to be more prudent to go to an objective therapist first. You could hopefully get recommendations for one who knows about cults and religious conflict without themselves having a horse in the race (i.e. don't want to get you into their faith brand; many people, therapists included, don't realize how damaging it can be to gloss over the effects of a traumatizing religion and go straight to another one). This is why sites like RfM can be of so much help - posters here know how it is to be Mormon as well as ex-Mormon. When you describe certain incidents at church, triggers as an exmo, things that bug you, etc, many will get you without much explanation from you, unlike taking an hour to recount one piece of info to a nevermo counsellor. (However, nevermos can be of tremendous help too, giving a different perspective on things).

As an aside, when I was a JW (joined in my mid-teens after I left home) I worked in a medical clinic where one of the MDs, a fervent born again Christian, was desperate to convert me to his beliefs. I attended church with him for a long time. Little did I realize how fundamentalist it was. Both things messed with my head, JW and BAC. Same thing after LDS. I headed straight back to an EV church. As I mentioned earlier, the minister there dived right into his Bible to de-convert me from Mormonism. (I was pretty much gone already after I left. That was my decisive step and I didn't need anything else to convince me to go). Interestingly, the first thing we discussed was the question of "authority". I spoke of the bishop's authority (for some strange reason; I can't remember why now). The EV minister replied, "We [Christians] get our authority from the Bible". It sent my thoughts in a different direction, which was good for me. That's what I mean about nevermos having different takes on things.

But you have to watch out it's not just someone with an urgent need to convert you. Even well-meaning people who don't have the expertise to understand about cults or fundamentalist-type belief systems are not necessarily the ones to go to in a situation like yours.

Objectivity plus knowledge. That's what I would look for. Humans do tend to skew towards recommending their own beliefs to "help" others, even trained psych professionals in many cases.

I stand by my advice from before: Do some quick reading yourself, as one step towards taking charge of your own recovery. Check out all the info available easily online re cult recovery. (I don't consider LDS or even JW to be cults in the strictest sense but many here do). It's amazing how even one insight, one thought someone writes, can be so enlightening and that leads on to more knowledge and steps towards self-recovery.

Of course, you still would do well to follow medical advice, which includes seeing a psychiatrist as well as a psychologist or other similar counsellor, if that is recommended and if it's helping you or holds the promise to do so.

It can be a long process, as others have said, but if you set meaningful goals and pay attention to small victories and celebrate them you can perhaps pay some attention to other aspects of life as you go along. Definitely don't put all of life on hold waiting for some magical recovery to arrive at a specific time. Many posters here have said they know from vivid personal experience that it doesn't happen that way. I've seen many replies to you lately saying that it's a long process but meanwhile life can go on.


> Doing things alone is just way too tough.

You have your medical team. You have your psych helpers. Your meds. Your medical treatments. Your roommate (for company, although he's got his own issues). Lots of well-intended support from people here (as I mentioned once before, more than I've seen almost anybody else receive, ever).

But. I would recommend you seek out other resources (the cult recovery online blurbs, recommended books by established experts) plus even other discussion boards that deal specifically with the issues most central to you. RfM is not necessarily the best place for daily check-ins re ongoing medical/psych treatment. All we can do here is give our personal experiences without specific medical advice. Often when someone is hurting they don't want to hear or know about another's pain. It can be counterproductive for all parties. There's a limit to what anyone here can say or recommend. Some of it is up to you to choose what will help the most, based on rational thinking though. So that would not include anyone with their own axe to grind, so to speak, like my MD pal or others through the years who want to fix me by taking me to church. It often does not answer the central issues. Adding more religion on top of toxic experiences, at least in the beginning, can be a big mistake.


> i'm just a man in physical pain trying to get out of physical
> pain.

A good indication of how there are several parts to all this. One, the physical. Two, the psychological. Three, the religious aspects. Four, ??

Seeing a religious counsellor will not diminish your physical pain, obviously.

Sticking with the medical team for the physical issues will be of most benefit, obviously.

You can't be in a rush, with all the many aspects of your situation, for a complete and instantaneous cure. Isn't going to happen. Maybe that's the first thing to accept. Maybe write out your goals and then check out how realistic they are. They might need adjusting. Such as going from "I want 100% pain relief" to "I would like to have less pain next week than I have now". Now, what can I try to accomplish that. Notice small improvements and celebrate them. Record them so on the bad days you can review them and save yourself from feelings of absolute hopelessness.

Psychosocial issues can cause perception of pain to increase (as I've said before). If some of those can be addressed (such as with your counsellors) it can have a positive effect on the level of pain you experience (i.e. money worries, health problems, family strife; check, check and check in your case).

It's not a rush job, Adam. There are many parts to it. Like reassembling a motor, you have to deal with each part individually and then as a whole. (Not that I know anything about vehicles).

Accept that some days will not be great but other days will be better.

From everything you have said, I think it would be helpful for you to (1) Find an objective therapist (in addition to or instead of the one you have now; I'm unclear on whether she is advising you to change to someone else). (2) Spend time outside, walking, seeing people, whatever you can do. Counter-intuitively perhaps, physical activity can help to decrease certain types of pain (when you can feel like rolling up into a ball due to pain but inactivity can actually increase pain). Being out and about can be psychologically positive, seeing the sunshine, scenery, people bustling around, someone holding a door for you or saying hello. (3) Try out other resources/discussion boards/web sites rather than only RfM. As I said, there is a real limit to what we can do here. It's not set up to be a medical discussion site. Also, when people are hurting (as are many who come here) it's hard for them to reach out too much or often to meaningfully support many others (although RfMers do a great job of it on an amazingly longstanding basis).

Bottom line is just be careful. Not everything a counsellor recommends is going to be the most beneficial for you. It's still up to you to choose what seems best for yourself.

OK, so not the bottom line - This reminds me of the time I was agonizing over something really really bad that happened to me at the EV church I attended post-Mormonism. I talked to a hospital chaplain where I worked. My sole focus was on forcing myself to go back to church, despite so much grief. I was feeling bad about myself for not attending, on top of feeling terrible about the incident that happened. (I have this thing I can't get rid of whereby I feel committed and then have mega trouble backing out of stuff). The chaplain's immediate question was revolutionary to me: "[Nightingale], why would you go back to the place that hurt you?" I still hear her saying that. A short sentence with a big impact. It helped me see things differently and it was a huge relief to stop trying to go back. It seems so simple and obvious I feel like a dolt even remembering how stuck I was on the notion that I must return. Of course, that was not the case. So I didn't and that was the biggest healing measure I could have taken at that time.

So, I ask you, Adam. Do you think it sounds like a good idea for you to delve into the New Testament expecting such a detour to improve your psych health at this point? First, you could disappear into study of the NT for eons. {{jk}} Second, immersing oneself into the thing that caused problems in the first place could magnify the psych and other issues arising from the bad experiences.

If you want to go ahead with that kind of "therapy", I would make sure it's with a qualified person who understands from a medical/psych perspective how cults or cult-ish groups can hurt people.

If s/he tries to get you to attend church or be converted or sees everything through their particular religious lens, think about whether continuing on with them is likely to benefit you.

I am not anti-religion. (Of course, because I'm still a Christian). Just cautious when it comes to health matters. I would go with a neutral expert every time.

I have just been through a family experience where too many cooks did indeed spoil the broth, as in a multitude of doctors were involved in the care of a relative but the MDs didn't coordinate with each other and that delayed appropriate care to the point of causing severe harm.

That exceptionally difficult experience gives me the last bottom line for you today: Think about how many people you need to be involved in your psych issues. Maybe two is perfect or maybe you need more, all with different specialties. Or maybe you only need one, depending on which issues are paramount. Maybe someone IRL can guide you in that regard.

And just as I've said about being cautious re immersing oneself in the world that caused the pain in the first instance, sometimes being online, or on too much, discussing it over and over can keep the hurt on the boil and give it undue prominence. Think about that walk, the park, the beach, the mall, anywhere you can interact in the real world, despite pain, so you can get into a different space, physically and mentally. It's good to clear out the cobwebs regularly.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 07:59PM

I quote because when i reply it goes to the wrong spot sometimes. I don't understand why this process has to be so long. I really don't understand the process i just know that i am in one. Why do i think there is a quick fix out there somewhere, i really have no idea, but it got ingrained in me somehow in life. I want to be on an even playing field when it comes to my family and father, so i want to get better faster. They have always had an edge on me it seems in life. They seem to be able to live life and i can not. I do curl up in a ball from pain and hide from the world and i admit it. I am so tired of being in pain that it's not even funny. Pain alone disables me. I could probably get a full-time job without the pain that's why it's my main focus. You are right that i am kind of iffy about the whole christian thing but i see it work for other people. Why does religion and god not help me like it helps others i have no idea. Probably because of memories or something holding me back from trusting a god figure. Having some helicopter god watching me is probably not a good thing for my psyche anyways. I still think i have my work cut out for me and it worries me a little bit. I've been in worse positions than this but my financial situation is not good. I don't want to be disabled forever. I think there may be a way back from this position, possibly. To becoming a normal functioning adult i guess.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 08:03PM

And finding an actual cult counselor that understands the lds religion is very hard to find.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 10:02PM

Christianity is founded on the basic premise that humanity is inherently evil and must be saved. I can't imagine how any counsel that follows that premise could be helpful.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 10:12PM

jacob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Christianity is founded on the basic premise that
> humanity is inherently evil and must be saved. I
> can't imagine how any counsel that follows that
> premise could be helpful.

I don't know, almost all of my thoughts are religious and it needs to be sorted out somehow my psychiatrist said.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 02:02AM

There are many flavors of Christianity. Maybe your therapist wants you to discover this.I would be careful that you dont windup with some fundie with an agenda to convert you. Talk to your therapist and see what the Christian counselor is like. Could be good or bad.Hopefully, he or she will help you explore your religious issues without an attempt to convince you to convert.Finding out that there are religions which are very different from Mormonism would be good. Getting preached at wouldnt be good.Hopefully the therapist is a professional who wont do that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2018 02:11AM by bona dea.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 03:41AM

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are many flavors of Christianity. Maybe your
> therapist wants you to discover this.I would be
> careful that you dont windup with some fundie with
> an agenda to convert you. Talk to your therapist
> and see what the Christian counselor is like.
> Could be good or bad.Hopefully, he or she will
> help you explore your religious issues without an
> attempt to convince you to convert.Finding out
> that there are religions which are very different
> from Mormonism would be good. Getting preached at
> wouldnt be good.Hopefully the therapist is a
> professional who wont do that.

Preaching would be very bad.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 02:25AM

You might look at Jordan Peterson’s Bible lecture series. When viewed from a viewpoint of evolutionary psychology, the deep archetypes of the Bible stories are repeated through much of mythology. Gandalf the gray becoming Gandalf the white, it’s Christ all over again. Lucifer and Christ are aspects of us. It’s the good part of ourselves that saves us from us. So it’s not really horse shit. The parasitic Mormon cult that perverts it all, that’s something else.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 03:42AM

Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You might look at Jordan Peterson’s Bible
> lecture series. When viewed from a viewpoint of
> evolutionary psychology, the deep archetypes of
> the Bible stories are repeated through much of
> mythology. Gandalf the gray becoming Gandalf the
> white, it’s Christ all over again. Lucifer and
> Christ are aspects of us. It’s the good part of
> ourselves that saves us from us. So it’s not
> really horse shit. The parasitic Mormon cult that
> perverts it all, that’s something else.

I think you have a point.

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Posted by: anono this week ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 10:18PM

Yes humanity is basically selfish, selfinterested, and have a tendency towards being bad. Little children only care about themselves and as they mature they maybe taught to care for others. But there is no guarantee. In theory of childhood development it's suppose to happen around age 12 but many adults with lower IQ never reached that maturity.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 11:48PM

anono this week Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes humanity is basically selfish, selfinterested,
> and have a tendency towards being bad. Little
> children only care about themselves and as they
> mature they maybe taught to care for others. But
> there is no guarantee. In theory of childhood
> development it's suppose to happen around age 12
> but many adults with lower IQ never reached that
> maturity.

As the buddhists say "we are all born sinners". Love those guys, totally destroy mormonism in one sentence.

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 11:59PM

They say that?

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 12:19AM

I don't know what buddhists say. But a Harvard trained lawyer I once worked for was fond of saying, "People are no damned good." And he meant it most sincerely.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 01:40AM

Beth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They say that?

Pretty sure i learned that in a world religions course in college.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 12:33AM

[I was wrong in what I said here, so I am editing out what I said. Thank you, Beth!]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2018 01:03AM by Tevai.

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 12:35AM

https://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/182.htm

Christianity does - those branches that deal with original sin, but not Buddhism.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 01:02AM

Beth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> https://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/182.htm
>
> Christianity does - those branches that deal with
> original sin, but not Buddhism.

You are right, but I know I read this (in different Google returns), and I can't find those returns!

I apologize, and thank you for correcting me, Beth! :)

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 01:08AM

Not related: Do you have the magic power to make posts go away? There's a supersized racist on two threads.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 01:50AM

Report on each of the threads (especially the offending posts, if you can find them easily enough).

(The "Report" 'button' is at the right of the options at the bottom of each post.)

Thank you!

EDITED TO ADD: Done. Thank you, Beth (and everyone who reported)--very muchly appreciated. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2018 02:19AM by Tevai.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 12:49AM

Lets clean up your religion problem with more religion. Sounds legit.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 01:47AM

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lets clean up your religion problem with more
> religion. Sounds legit.

Well i thought of that but my psychiatrist was thinking that my main non-religious counselor was not getting the job done in this arena. If i can find an expert in religious programming they may know how to deprogram my mind better. I don't know. Finding a true cult expert is hard.

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Posted by: Paintingnotloggedin ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 02:06AM

If you have religious ideas, religious structure al logic then , you do.

If you were thinking and reacting religiously. grew religiously and later got several mixed eligioud feelings. Then, you did.

And if you are culturally religiously thinking inherently religiously reacting then you are.

Talking to someone that respects you. Respects how you identify religiously. Respects how you grew and feel now.

Not as an antagonistic force but as someone who can see what religious beliefs have been about in your life. I assume you have many many mixed feelings not just 2. A mind boggling contradiction between what you observed and whatever you believed to be true. Beyond just what you read.
Perhaps you expressed such participation or cultural connection with the life concept of religious congregations community that it appears it's a large part of you that you value about you. Or it wouldn't be doing such sufferings to have family and community be unable to continue to connect with you joyfully

Maybe someone wants to get you out of this or in another community safely.

I believe they only care about your peace of mind, not what cultural religious lifestyle is relevant to you they would want you peace of mind if you were < insert any religion you can think of here>

I chose not to work with a counselor closer to home who saud: I work with protestant Christian women. I specialize in chr iui stain women. I guessed they wouldn't understand me as I come from a catholic mormon dual immersion <language symbolism > childhood. They did not reject me they simply restated repeatedly what it is she did: help Christian women <after or through a life transition or crisis sort of use shared early strengths to reestablish the future > I was never a protestant Christian lady so she told me she would try Skype sessions at 250 an hour if I wanted to try she does Christian work. I googled it. She might use christian metaphors stories values vocabulary support music attempting restructuring during the hypnosis she suggested. I was concerned being raised catholic and mormon it might reject everything or recruit me entirely. <rather than salvage strengths gently support it create a better cooperative routine engagement of skills/sets of skills.what of the metaphors didnt click or met skeptical regard or yet further splitting into agreeable formation with concurrent separate splitting into more conflicted stances in reaction to some lecture on what God really is instead of acknowledging unfairness .

I went with a Buddhist priest instead. Years in, almost a faint disappointment wafts in their voice when they announce: you taste Christian. Ideas responses valued actions go deep Adam! Fortunately I am not overwhelmed by impossibility of total merger with a leader religious constructs even if that's what they think is success. Still I felt safer perhaps stupidly not going to someone who said they worked with one gender, one srx, one religious culture as a specialty/ that really intimidated me! I was afraid they'd want another model to create me after already bouncing through a few I was hoping someone somewhere could work with bringing me back not writing me over like an eraser page. I think the Buddhist priest professional has accomplished that with me despite my differences.

Find out if your proposed therapist wants a puppy to follow them religious beliefs or if they will excavate yours & find you est compromises or satusfavtions even if you're not a <name a denomibation of some religion> puppy just like them

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