I drove about 45 minutes through the Utah town of Enterprise to get to the memorial. I stopped off at the Women and Children’s Monument, The Men’s, and moved on to the overlook, and finally the burial monument.

The story of the massacre is well known, so, I’ll just report my personal thoughts.

At the main parking lot there is a display detailing what happened. On the other side is the church’s “statement of regret.” My initial reaction was anger. The statement of “regret” was not an apology or acknowledgement that church members participated in the slaughter. Rather, it was dripping with religious virtue signaling. I’m sure anyone not TBM would notice the phony piety and lack of an apology.

A concrete path takes the visitor down a slope, then to a bridge to across a stream. It’s not hard to see why the settlers camped here. A short walk and one is at the monument. A display recounts the men of the US Army who happened on the site. They buried the rotting bodies and built a cairn over the grade site. On the top of the cairn, they erected a large wooden cross.

At this point I noticed that several video cameras were monitoring the memorial. The newly built cemented cairn (without the cross) is gated. One opens the gate, walks in and sees a large plaque indicating that the monument was built and maintained by the church. My reaction was it was there to say to visitors, look how generous we are. However, as with the statement of regret, non-TBMs will probably wonder why the church has to be so prominent with letting everyone know they built and own the monument.

There’s a low square wall around the cairn. Near the Northeast corner is a marker indicating the burial site of the remains deposited below. Next to it is a new market shows that in 2017 a child’s skull was found, and that it now rests below the marker. Along the perimeter walls, the names, ages, and occupations of those murdered were carved.

After exiting the main memorial, I walked a circular path that indicates where the siege of the settler men took place, and finally the execution site of John D. Lee.

It was a beautiful quiet experience. Other than the church’s childlike attempts to look good, the Momument is very reverential and appropriate.

In my heart, I remembered the poetry of Walt Whitman’s reflections on the American Civil War—

Word over all, beautiful as the skies,
That war and all its deeds of carnage
must, in time, be utterly lost.
That the hands of the sisters—death and night—
Incessantly, softly, wash ever and ever again
This soiled earth.

I wished peace for the families’ descendants, honestly for the church, and hope that something so terrible might never happen again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2018 11:47AM by BYU Boner.

It has been a constant reminder to me since I found out about it how the spoils go to the conquerors long into the future.

LDS Corp hasn't even apologized for a massacre and they don't have that much history in human recorded history.

A church of conartistry and control freakery can push might makes righteous and still call themselves a religion of love and peace with no apologies.

Thanks very much for your post—I’m trying to decide if I can talk any of my kids to go with me (or take me) to see this monument sometime this summer.

I made the trip from Las Vegas to SLC and back several times in the years that I lived in down south. I kept telling myself I would stop on the next trip, north or southbound but of course never did.

It's about time.

Hey MeMike! I talked my wife into going. You can either go through Cedar drive southeast and eventually get to St. George. Or, you can drive out through St. George, hit the monument, and then end up in Cedar. The drive is beautiful, and you’ll miss about 50 miles of I-15! Bro-hugs!

If they spin it just right, the church may eventually convince the world that it was the Mormons who were the victims in the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

More proof of Mormon persecution.

"If they spin it just right, the church may eventually convince the world that it was the Mormons who were the victims..."


I read a rather long post about just that subject which, I believe, was taken from the book 'Massacre at Mountain Meadows'--the Baker-Fancher train was taunting the local populace, saying the US Army was on way, poisoned a well, and stole from the mormons.

While the post did say that the locals were not blameless and refused to sell supplies to them, and BY had *nothing* to do with it, it basically implies "Well, they made us do it!"

So, yeah, it sorta makes the mormons the victims.

I'd never even heard of the event until I happened upon RFM almost 10 years ago. It still troubles me that the church has not really been held to account for this.

Interesting question:

Did they execute JDL at the MMM site or somewhere else?

Also, I forgot: Was there lots of pressure to try him? Where did that focus originate?

From Juanitas book, I think I recall that JDL was exiled away from the area... true?

Per Bagley BOTP, p. 315: "He Died Game"

>>On the afternoon of March 21, 1877, Marshal William Nelson and U.S. Attorney Sumner Howard loaded John D. Lee into a closed carriage and drove south. The pending execution was supposed to be secret, but Howard had alerted the press and some twenty citizens, and the parties traveled separately to avoid attracting attention (footnoted). The night before a detachment of 20 soldiers under Lt. George Patterson had left Fort Cameron. Peterson's orders directed him to observe "the utmost secrecy," and his men left the fort hidden in their wagons. The soldiers reached Leach's Spring shortly before dawn where Marshall Nelson and his prisoner met their escort. Following the emigrant trail, they arrived at Mountain Meadows at 9:30 p.m. Despite the secrecy, the next morning Nelson had to ask Patterson to protect him from the groups of observers that arrived shortly before Lee was to be shot.

>>When Lee finished, Reverend Stokes knelt with him and offered a fervent prayer. Marshall Nelson blindfolded Lee but at the prisoner's request left his arms untied. Lee sat bolt upright on the end of his open coffin and raised his hands over his head. To avoid mangling the body, Lee called to the firing squad, "Center my heart, boys!" and the newspaper said he murmured one last complaint agains Brigham Young. At exactly 11:00 a.m. Nelson gave the order...

p. 316

My son wrote a high school essay on this topic. It was the first I'd really heard of the matter, when he chose to write about it. I learned about it along with him.

It was carefully concealed from our Seminary classes in high school. And Institute classes in college. No mention of it during SS, primary or MIA (back in the day.)

I visited it years ago. As with most visitors, I was moved to tears. After I got my composure back and as I walked back up to the parking lot, I turned to look at it again. My thought was that it looked like a dinosaur took a dump.

Little Johnny: Mom, I regret that your favorite vase hit the ball I was throwing around the house and ended up broken. I sincerely hope it never happens again. Next time, please buy a tougher vase.

This makes me feel some unspeakable sadness and anger. Wish I had become aware of it as an investigator so many years ago. As a new member all I heard about was persecution of the innocent saints. Peeerseeecuuuuuuution.

Oh yeah the Mountain Meadow event. If I recall correctly the local leaders gave a commandment for the men in the local Stakes in Iron county and Parawon to do something important where they were promised that if they'd do it then they'd be guaranteed exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom and if they didn't do it then they'd be damned to hell. Then there was some ambiguity over whether or not Brigham Young had approved of it beforehand and if he approved of it afterwards. But where there is absolutely no ambiguity on this is what the attitude within the Church about whether or not people should obey their local leaders (or if they have a concern to raise the issue with the General Authorities). If anything unacceptable in the eyes of the Church happened at the MMM then you can be sure the leaders would be strongly preaching to the members that if their local leaders ever gave any counsel they though wasn't right that they should escalate the matter to the general authorities of the Church. But because they teach us to not bother the general authorities then it must mean that the Church fully accepts what happened at Mountain Meadow and encourages such future blessings of exaltation for people who obey the counsels of their local leaders in similar circumstances.



I'd dig deeper into this matter to try to figure out exactly what the men were counseled to do. But the super holy middlemen in charge of our Ward/Stake keep us very busy doing lots of things so there obviously is no time for such ventures. For example, did you know that poor Heavenly Father would have to spend a lot of money on janitors if we didn't clean the chapels. Thus we get to be busy bees keeping the chapels super clean every week. I'm so often so exhausted so its hard to really grasp much. One thing I do remember learning about recently is that its very important to be Obedient to the leaders. Though I can't seem to remember much else I certainly do remember that thanks to how our marvelous Correlation program has well-ingrained in me how I'm supposed to think.

Mormons are still taught that the first law of Heaven is obedience. The only thing that has changed is what the leaders can get away with.

I visited the site a few years ago. I had pictured the site differently so it was helpful to see it in person.

John D Lee was guilty but was also a bit of a scapegoat as other local leaders may have had more of a hand in the decision making.

I doubt Brigham Young appoved the massacre in advance. The stake president, Haight, received a letter from Young to let the emigrants go in peace but it arrived after the massacre.

The best book I have read on the subject was by Walker, Turley and Leonard, published 2008. "Massacre at Mountain Meadows".

Will Bagley has been a friend of mine--and this board--for decades and he does his own speaking, but on the subject of the Turley, Walker, Leonard whitewash, he simply said, "Don't take any prisoners."

The LDS church spent more than ten million dollars underwriting this bit of propaganda; Part II is still in the works (with one of the authors now deceased), and nothing has been forthcoming. Part I ends the day before the killing...

For some authentic history, Will's work is unparalleled; he's presented twice at Exmormon Conferences, and two other volumes have been well-received, including "Innocent Blood," an account of the survivors' stories taken from the children who were spared.

Quite simply, if you believe in BY's "innocence," you're forced to conclude that 70 or so faithful PH holding Latter-day Saints in Southern Utah would commit an act of cold-blooded murder in very treacherous fashion without BY's approval.

Didn't happen...

You can look, too, at how when Young finally visited the massacre site, he had the rock cairn, built by Major Carleton's men, dismantled...

He is reported as saying, the phrase "Venegeance is mine sayeth the Lord" was incorrect; he said it was his, and he had "taken a little."

https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Prophets-Brigham-Massacre-Mountain/dp/0806134267/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Rebellion-Americas-First-1857-1858/dp/0806143150

https://www.amazon.com/Innocent-Blood-Essential-Narratives-Mountain/dp/0870623621/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1529106604&sr=1-1&keywords=bagley+innocent+blood



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2018 02:00PM by SL Cabbie.

True it's been taking a while for this Part 2 to come out. But I could never question why it's taking so long because of how the beloved Correlation program has well taught me to never question the Church authorities on anything. That's how it was for the men in the Iron and Parawon stakes in 1857 towards their local leaders and those leaders towards Brigham Young. And every time we are reminded to follow our leaders it is a reminder to all that what happened at Mountain Meadow was alright in the eyes of the Church.

What Part 2 should show is how from the beginning it all started with Brigham Young and in the aftermath it all was about Brigham Young. All of those local leaders were called through him so what they did was all as if Brigham Young called the shots himself. And how Brigham Young handled things afterwards is all part of the glorious doctrine and legacy that we get to have in the Church for all eternity.

It seems so silly for the critics to suggest that the Church would be against anything that Brigham Young did. If they were then the BYU brand would get a new name.

I don't think Brigham Young had anything to do with the massacre. Brigham Young wanted the state of Deseret. He was trying to convince Washington DC he was a responsible leader and massacring a wagon train passing through was the last thing he needed.

No the massacre was payback from some members who held a grudge from what happened in Missouri. There was bad blood from all the persecution and they snapped. If you look at some of the old hymns they used to sing the Mormons wanted vengeance on their enemies. Well some took it at Mountain Meadows.

For those visiting, if you see video cameras be sure to have a few packs of condoms so you can open them and put over the lens of the video surveillance.

Why make it easy for them?

Sure Briggs didn’t have anything to do with it...a sparrow couldn’t fart in Utah without his knowledge and permission but he knew nothing about it...rest assured yes men were appointed then as now and would Piss their britches to do the bosses bidding...so who was it sent the apostle ahead to preach hellfire at every town and tell them not to sell supplies or feed to the train..by what miracle did Indians gather from a hundred miles in a couple days...and what miracle brought Elenor Maclean so far so fast...she’s a factor imo...I’ll have what your smoking if you believe that miserable pos didn’t give the order...just a tid bit...when Brooks was researching her book in st George...her sister came into find her burning records too damaging to the church...hmmm how convenient...the real miracle is those who give Briggs a break ever left the church to begin with