We were schmoozing yesterday where she works at a gift shop. I mentioned about my daughter who has become Orthodox Jewish and now resides in Israel.

This sister and I are both conservative Jews. She exclaimed out loud, that is a big RED FLAG why my daughter has distanced herself from her family since becoming orthodox. She tells me that it's considered normal for Orthodox Jewish people to cut their family members off who aren't orthodox. Even if they're actively Jewish of other sects such as Reform, or Conservative (among others.)

I had heard that many Israelis are secular. But she told me that the majority of Israelis are secular. The predominant Jewish sect is orthodox in Israel. I did know that Conservative and Reform rabbis are not allowed to practice there, or perform weddings. So they are a tiny minority in Israel (while perhaps the majority of observant Jews in America.)

Orthodox Judaism may be more isolating and cuts ties from family moreso even than the Mormon church.

Very sad and troubling knowing that my daughter went from being a Mormon to becoming Orthodox Jewish. She is Jewish, and really believes in Judaism. Which is why she immigrated to Israel, to be a part of the gathering in of the exiles from the Diaspora. She feels it both a duty and a God given calling.

My cousins in Israel are Orthodox that I know of. Imagine there are others there I have yet to learn of who may not be orthodox but secular? Just a passing thought ... that they aren't all disconnected from their relatives.

The only Orthodox Jewish person I know still associates with everyone Jewish or not. He's been a very good friend to me for years.

I've known two Orthodox Jewish people thus far. One was my Israeli cousin who passed away last year. The other was my daughter's rabbi before she made Aliyah (immigration) to Israel. He's a very kind person. He moved to Michigan to take a teaching position earlier this year, and is no longer a rabbi here.

Hi Amyjo, I’ve know folks from all three traditions and the Orthodox Jews I’ve known were very accepting of all peoples.

I’m wondering if she’s a part of a minority Ultra-Orthodox group?

In any event, I’m very sorry to hear about her behavior. Shalom, my friend!

My only experience with Jewish beliefs and family life comes via literature, principally Herman Wouk and Leon Uris (I've read all of Wouk and Uris' 'Jewish' novels), but even so I'm limited, at best. But the Torah includes the Ten Commandments, one of which is to Honor one's parents. One would imagine that an orthodox jew would do so.

but I believe it is on netflix. The woman was on the Meghan Kelly show a few weeks ago and she was orthodox. She has left the group and she has been through a lot, one being that they took her kids away in court as the group paid for all the court costs. That group in New York doesn't have anything to do with those outside orthodox.

I've also read all of Herman Wouk and Uris. Love both of them. My favorites were "Winds of War" and "War and Remembrance" and "Battle Cry." Although so many of them are so good.

Consider me anonymous for this:

I bawled like a baby when Byron found his son...

https://www.netflix.com/title/80118101

It's by the same folks who did "Jesus Camp"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2018 11:25PM by Beth.

From your description, the group in Israel is one of the "ultra" groups (and they have their own Jewish spectrum: from right to "left").

Israel is not like "here" (meaning: non-Israel). Just about everyone who does not actively identify as some sort of "other" (Reform, or Renewal, or Conservative, or …) self-identifies as "Orthodox"--especially since "Orthodox" is the only legally-recognized Judaism when it comes to legal issues (such as marriage, divorce, burial, etc.).

In Isreal, or with Israelis generally, if you ask what [kind] of Jew they are, they reflexively say: Orthodox. Doesn't mean they actually do mitzvot ["commandments": prayers at certain times, Shabbat observance, family purity laws, food and food preparation laws, etc.], and it doesn't mean that they ever set foot inside a synagogue except, perhaps, if someone they know is getting married or something.

What this response really means is: "If I ever DID go to shul for [ordinary Jewish things], it would be an ORTHODOX synagogue (one of the ones financially supported by the Israeli government), and NOT a 'Reform,' 'Conservative,' 'Renewal,'" (etc.) synagogue.

Your daughter is undoubtedly part of one of the "ultra-Orthodox" groups, most of which are headed by specific rebbes (a kind of chief-of-THIS-micro-Jewish-"state" rabbi--or, in American speak, a "cult leader"...think Chabad for the relatively "liberal," or Satmar for the actual, fits-all-the-requirements-cult-ones).

Reform/Reconstuctionist/Conservative/Renewal (etc.) rabbis ARE allowed to conduct marriage ceremonies (etc.) in Israel (and many of them perform gay marriage ceremonies)--those ceremonies just aren't legal according to Israeli "civil" law.

BUT (this is the Israeli legal "out"): Marriages in other countries are recognized as legal in Israeli law, so Jews who are not Orthodox, and who cannot get an Orthodox rabbi to marry them, generally fly to Cyprus to get married (or, could be, the UK or the USA or wherever), and with that foreign marriage certificate, ARE legally recognized as legally married in Israel.

For burials, if the person being buried does not meet Orthodox Jewish law requirements, that person is buried in specifically segregated sections of cemeteries, or in cemeteries specifically and exclusively allowed to those Jews whose Jewishness does not meet Israeli Orthodox religious legal standards...and this could be for any number of a long list of religious prohibitions of one kind or another.

Just remember: overwhelmingly, "everyone" in Israel automatically identifies as Orthodox regardless of their level of Jewish observance or any of their beliefs (or non-beliefs). In other words: secular/atheist/agnostic Jews in Israel, if asked, will almost always identify themselves as "Orthodox"--and this actually does make perfect sense from an Israeli perspective.

By American standards, the word "Orthodox," as a self-identifier in Israel, has little or no meaning, because it can literally indicate "nothing" about a person other than they are a Jew.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2018 02:35PM by Tevai.

Thanks Tevai (and others,) for your feedback.

I believe she meant Orthodox Jews, in general. Not the ultra orthodox sects.

Her son runs a funeral home where we live. The orthodox groups won't utilize a conservative Jewish funeral home's services because it isn't orthodox. They don't recognize us as Jewish, and we're in America!

Our rabbi recently retired to Israel. My understanding is he won't be able to work as a rabbi there because he's conservative. Maybe he does under the radar? But then again, he's retired. He did very well as a Conservative rabbi in America that he has a nice retirement now so doesn't really need to keep working. He was an extremely popular and beloved rabbi here.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks Tevai (and others,) for your feedback.

:)


> I believe she meant Orthodox Jews, in general. Not
> the ultra orthodox sects.

I don't understand this, because "everyone" [who is Jewish], in Israel, identifies themselves as Orthodox. It's an American joke! To Americans in Israel (or in dealing with Israelis who are here in North America), it is--on its face--a relatively meaningless statement, with very low content of information, except to say: "This person is a Jew."

> Her son runs a funeral home where we live. The
> orthodox groups won't utilize a conservative
> Jewish funeral home's services because it isn't
> orthodox.

This makes sense. A Conservative Jewish funeral home is not, by Orthodox standards, observant of Halachah ["Jewish law"]. There are some very clear laws about dead human bodies in Jewish law that American Jews are usually not concerned about UNLESS they are Orthodox--so, by halachic standards, a Conservative Jewish funeral home would be only marginally better than a non-Jewish, American funeral home.


> They don't recognize us as Jewish, and
> we're in America!

This is nonsense! In general, and as you well know, a Jew is one of two things:

1) Born of a Jewish mother.
2) A convert to Judaism.

Since you were born of a Jewish mother, you would be recognized as a Jew by any other Jew.

The complicating factor here could be that, if your congregation is considered by observant Jews to be Christian/Messianic, then even if you ARE a born Jew, you (or anyone in the congregation, such as your friend's son) could (by Orthodox legal reasoning) be considered to have left the Jewish people, in which case, the funeral home could be considered non-Jewish by the standards of Jewish law.

> Our rabbi recently retired to Israel. My
> understanding is he won't be able to work as a
> rabbi there because he's conservative.

No, he can work in Israel...he just will not be paid by the State of Israel for his work...and his work (marrying, converting, burying, counseling, etc.) will not meet Jewish legal standards--unless, possibly, he received smicha (his Jewish ordination as a rabbi) from a recognized Orthodox Jewish authority.

ALL Jewish movements/"denomination" send their rabbis-in-training (and their cantors) to Israel for at least a couple of years, and they work VERY hard while they are in Israel...they just don't receive paychecks from the Israeli national treasury.

> But then again, he's
> retired. He did very well as a Conservative rabbi
> in America that he has a nice retirement now so
> doesn't really need to keep working. He was an
> extremely popular and beloved rabbi here.

If he has a nice retirement, then he doesn't need an Israeli paycheck...and there are an abundance of useful and positive things he can choose to do while he is living in Israel. I am glad he has the opportunity to live in Israel during his retirement, and it sounds like he was a wonderful community leader.

The woman I was speaking to has been a temple women's president in years past, and is very knowledgeable about the differences between conservative and orthodox. We aren't in a Messianic congregation by any means. It is conservative. She flat out said her son is not considered Jewish by the local orthodox Jews. Or his funeral home.

Interestingly, the JCC that runs programs for the Jewish community at large combines all the sects with its community activities. No one seems to mind we come from different sects when we meet for Jewish classes or cultural events. It's the religious mindset they don't accept. Maybe it's peculiar to an East Coast mindset v. West Coast cultural norms?

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> She flat out said her son is not
> considered Jewish by the local orthodox Jews.

This is a matter of Jewish legal status. If she is a Jew by the precepts of Jewish law, then her son is a Jew by Jewish law. If he is NOT considered a Jew by the local Orthodox Jews, then there is an important Jewish law reason for this.


> Interestingly, the JCC that runs programs for the
> Jewish community at large combines all the sects
> with its community activities. No one seems to
> mind we come from different sects when we meet for
> Jewish classes or cultural events.

The ultra-Orthodox aside, this is true for all Jews in North America.


> It's the religious mindset they don't accept.

No, from a Jewish standpoint, this is (first and foremost) a matter of Jewish law. If there is a problem, the first issue to clear is whatever that matter of [Jewish] law is or might be.

On the other hand, if the funeral home is Conservative, then it does not (and likely cannot) offer the same Jewish services available in an Orthodox funeral home, so why would the Orthodox (who religiously NEED those mitzvot to be observed) go to a business who could not provide observance of those mitzvot? [For non-Jews: "mitzvah"/"mitzvot" = "commandments"--precepts of Jewish law which must be observed by those Jews who observe them (primarily: the Jewish Orthodox).]

She mentioned the orthodox don't consider reform or conservative "From." That's why they don't consider us truly Jewish. To the American conservative and reform that's balderdash.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> She mentioned the orthodox don't consider reform
> or conservative "From."

"frum" means "observant"--it is a shorthand and haimisch ("homey") Jewish way of saying "Orthodox."


>That's why they don't consider us truly Jewish.

This is not true. Jewish status ("Who is a Jew?") is based totally on Jewish law: Was this person born of a Jewish mother? [or] Is this person a [valid] convert to Judaism? There may be Jewish law disputes between (usually) the Orthodox and everyone else about whether a given conversion is valid, but ANYONE born of a Jewish mother is a Jew, by Jewish law.


> To the American conservative and reform that's balderdash.

There are Conservative rabbis who will not accept particular Reform converts as valid, because Reform has "eased up" on their requirements vis-à-vis Jewish law in at least some conversions.

[According to Jewish law, there are three absolute requirements for conversion to Judaism:

1) Circumcision, or "symbolic" (a single drop of blood is drawn from the head of the penis) circumcision for males.

2) Ritual immersion in a mikvah ("ritual bath," which can be a purpose-built facility, or a natural source of running ("living") water such as in an ocean or a river (such as: the Jordan River, for example).

3) Appearance before a Bet Din (a rabbinical court composed of three rabbis).

If the above three requirements of Jewish law are not met, then the conversion is not considered valid by all Jewish authorities who are not Reform. For those who DID convert through Reform Judaism (and did not meet the Jewish law requirements for conversion), but want to have their conversions legally recognized as valid by ALL Jews, it is a simple matter to fulfill whatever the missing requirements might be--and this does happen, especially regarding issues such as [new] marriage to a Jew, and making Aliyah to Israel.]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2018 03:21PM by Tevai.

The joke is that the airlines, not the rabbis, made Israeli marriage laws.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The joke is that the airlines, not the rabbis,
> made Israeli marriage laws.

:D :D :D

I've never thought of it in this way before, bona dea, but you may be absolutely correct!!

This may sound like a stupid question, but I'm going to ask anyway. What happened to the Kibbutzim? Does anybody live like that anymore?

I think there are still some Kibbutzim in Israel, but they are far fewer in number than when it was a newly formed country. Tourists can go work on kibbutzes as volunteers as a way to visit Israel.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2018 04:24AM by Amyjo.

Josephina Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This may sound like a stupid question, but I'm
> going to ask anyway. What happened to the
> Kibbutzim? Does anybody live like that anymore?

Au contraire...this is a really SMART question!

Using base figures from 2010 (which are better detailed): 270 kibbutzim in Israel. "Their factories and farms account for 9% of Israel's industrial output, worth US$8 billion, and 40% of [Israel's] agricultural output, worth over $1.7 (U.S.) billion."

In 2015, HAARETZ (a leading Israeli newspaper) ran an article titled: "The New Rise of Israel's Kibbutzim: More Young Families Opt for Communal Life." "...with young families seeking to escape the high cost of living and alienation they find in cities for a cheaper, rural lifestyle in a closely knit community."

"There are 274 kibbutzim - mostly in Israel [proper], though around 20 are in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Golan Heights."

"Kibbutz residents make up less than two percent of Israel's 8.3 million population. But the communities have spawned much of the country's political, military and cultural elite and account for more than 40 percent of national agricultural output."

https://www.haaretz.com/the-new-rise-of-the-israeli-kibbutz-1.5368869

When I was in Israel, during the time when we were exploring northern Israel, we stayed at the Orthodox-conforming hotel owned and operated by Kibbutz Lavi...a kibbutz which also constructs very highly regarded furniture (seats, bimahs, etc.) for synagogues worldwide. (The hotel is in a scenic setting and is open to everyone, but the food available there is kosher--I don't know what level of kashrut, but there are definitely no cheeseburgers available. ;) ) Google: Kibbutz Lavi for photos and articles about the kibbutz, and also this part of Israel.

On a different subject: Someone in my family (a girl in her older teens) was having a great deal of trouble trying to decide what she wanted to do with her life. I suggested that she go to Israel and volunteer for three months or so, and she decided, since she had nothing else she was interested in doing...why not? I think she wound up spending six months or so in the kibbutz (side trips around Israel are included as part of the volunteer experience, plus you get to meet with others in the same general age group from around the world). Living on the kibbutz for those months changed her life--she has told me this many, many times. She came out with a boyfriend from a very well-situated Australian family (who is still a good friend to her; she married someone else several years later and had a son who is now an adult himself). I can't remember what kibbutz she became a temporary part of, but that experience transformed the rest of her life for the better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2018 04:45AM by Tevai.

Yeah, Orthodox can be pretty strict.

I heard that there are actually sects *within* Orthodoxy that are even more hard-case than normal Orthodox. Maybe they're talking about the various Chassids (?) with their individual Prophet-Messiahs but I'm not sure.

anonyXMo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, Orthodox can be pretty strict.

SOME Orthodox can be "pretty strict." Orthodox Judaism is a spectrum all unto itself, and it is important to keep in mind that a huge part of that spectrum is what Jews (informally) call: Modern Orthodox. These are the Jews you would basically never know were Orthodox unless you were sensitive to the behavioral signs. (Jonathan and Faye Kellerman, the mystery novel writers, are Modern Orthodox.) To the "right" of Modern Orthodox is a gigantic spectrum, which does include the Hassidim (among a fairly large group of "others").

> I heard that there are actually sects *within*
> Orthodoxy that are even more hard-case than normal
> Orthodox.

As I said, there IS a spectrum of Orthodox Jewish groups. What you call "normal Orthodox" is more accurately called "Modern Orthodox"--and Modern Orthodox Jews fit right into normal, non-Jewish society: there is nothing odd about how they dress, or odd facial hair (if any) on men, and most of the time you would have no reason to believe that they were Orthodox (except for the kipah, secured by a bobby pin, on males).

> Maybe they're talking about the various
> Chassids (?) with their individual
> Prophet-Messiahs but I'm not sure.

The leaders of ultra-Orthodox groups are generally called "Rebbes," and are generally addressed, and referred to, as (for example): Reb David or whatever. ("David" is pronounced in Hebrew: Dah-VEED.)

There are NO "messiahs" in ANY part of Judaism, and the Jewish prophets lived about three thousand years ago--with none of them alive now.

I understand that you did not realize that this particular thing you said is a slur, but it IS. Please understand: There are NO "messiahs" and NO living prophets (haven't been for a LONG time!) in Judaism. None.

Thank you.

When I worked in NYC, one of my Jewish coworkers was an expert at picking out our Orthodox Jewish customers. We were in a wholesale business, so these customers were pursuing careers. The female customers were always nicely dressed and were almost always wearing wigs (I am oblivious to wigs but she could pick one out right away.) My observation is that the Orthodox women I saw in NYC were more prone to wear wigs than hats or scarves.

I used to hear about the commuter buses with the curtain running down the center aisle -- men on one side, women on the other.

The ultra-Orthodox men who rode the train with me universally got off at the stop in the diamond district.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When I worked in NYC, one of my Jewish coworkers
> was an expert at picking out our Orthodox Jewish
> customers. We were in a wholesale business, so
> these customers were pursuing careers. The female
> customers were always nicely dressed and were
> almost always wearing wigs (I am oblivious to wigs
> but she could pick one out right away.) My
> observation is that the Orthodox women I saw in
> NYC were more prone to wear wigs than hats or
> scarves.
>

I'm pretty good at being able to tell whether someone is wearing a wig. Some are so natural looking they are hard to tell the difference.

> I used to hear about the commuter buses with the
> curtain running down the center aisle -- men on
> one side, women on the other.

A woman isn't allowed to sit next to an orthodox male on a bus who is not his wife. Women are expected to cover their arms, shoulders, legs, and use head coverings when in public. Orthodox males have been known to throw rocks or stones at female tourists visiting their neighborhoods, who aren't dressed ultra conservative, in Israel.
>
> The ultra-Orthodox men who rode the train with me
> universally got off at the stop in the diamond
> district.

Many of them own their own diamond stores and make a gob of money that way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2018 09:08AM by Amyjo.

It's not a special skill once you can identify one in the city you'd have no trouble pointing them out.

Well, I guess I'm not "anyone." In my industry, at that time, we all dressed rather conservatively and with some formality (silks, satins, woolens, etc.) Most women wore dresses or skirts and the fashion at the time was to have some length to the skirt. So the Orthodox women fit well within that spectrum, although perhaps on the side of being somewhat more conservative and formal. The only big difference from what I could tell was their use of wigs, and as I stated, I've never been that good at detecting wigs.

I just found out that my boss right now wears a wig! I had no idea. lol



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2018 02:00PM by summer.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just found out that my boss right now wears a
> wig! I had no idea. lol

:D :D :D

Tova Mirvis was interviewed on Mormon Stories. She talks about growing up in and then leaving the Orthodox Jewish Faith when she was around 40 years old. I've listened to all three parts many times.

Your Temple Sister inferred that Orthodox Jews 'shun' or at least ignore non-Orthodox Jews, including family. Nothing in my limited 'popular novel' readings ever indicated this.

Here's a response on Quora regarding what it means to be an 'ordinary' Modern Orthodox Jew.

"Ari Ben-Melech, I am Jewish. I study Torah and Tamud, as well as Jewish history.
Updated Sep 9, 2016

"It is the basis for everything I do. From my 8th day of life (circumcision) to being a Bar Mitzvah, it surrounds everything I do. I am Modern Jewish Orthodox and male. I wear a white shirt, black trousers, a black jacket, black kippah and black tie to Shul and Torah study. It's respectful. When I work I usually wear brighter shirts and ties. I collect kippot so I wear a different on all the time. Right now I am wearing one with a scuba diver on it, that matches my blue shirt and patterned tie. My Tzitzit (strings) hang outside my trousers. I am, without a doubt, Jewish at first glance. I eat kosher. I celebrate Jewish holidays. I celebrate Shabbat.

"During the summer I might be found swimming, walking to the pool in flip-flops, board shorts and a t shirt. I wear ball caps quite often so at that time, I am not obviously Jewish which would be quite the contrast from when I am walking to Shul.

"However, beyond all of that, Judaism permeates my soul. I wake up thanking G-d and go to sleep thanking G-d. I thank G-d numerous times throughout the day. I daven Shacharit, Mincha and Maariv. I say other very small prayers at other times throughout the day.

"I am Israeli and American and a proud Zionist. I donate money to Israeli charities and the IDF. I try to perform many different Mitzvot throughout the day but sometimes I fail miserably. I try to live by Torah but sometimes find myself facing my own words of deeds that were not based in Torah but my faith lets me examine myself and try to improve. For instance, we are to respect and honor our parents. At 13 to about 18, I failed miserably. Yet, I had understanding parents and the moments I failed, I learned something.

"I live by the 613 Mitzvit. Though, to be sure, some do not apply to me such as “do not delay paying a hired man his his wages” because I don’t employ anyone. I am not a farmer, judge, butcher so some do not apply due to my occupation but might apply to others. Some, I would have no trouble following regardless, such as “do not eat winged Insects”; I wasn't planning on it. I do, however, put on Tefillin, pray before eating or drinking, and I don't mix milk and meat. I don't wear clothing made of both wool and linen. Some, like the commandment to not bear a grudge is hard for me and is something I constantly work on.

"So, in reality I cannot compare it to anything as I have always been an Orthodox Jew and I attended Orthodox schools and Orthodox Shuls. However, I can say that I have a wonderful life and I think Torah and Orthodox Judaism makes it wonderful."
--https://www.quora.com/What-is-an-orthodox-Jewish-lifestyle-like


The interesting tidbit, for me, is that Orthodoxy requires living by the Torah. And from other readings, not just picking and choosing what parts of the Torah to observe. There is no Cafeteria Orthodoxy. And as he mentions, he didn't always 'honor his father and his mother...'

So now I'm wondering, how would consciously not honoring your parents fly in Orthodox Judaism? And what knowledge, if any, do you have about your daughter's relationship with her father?


ETA cited website URL



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2018 08:39PM by elderolddog.

Her father disowned her because she is practicing Jewish. Ironically, his mother was a Polish Holocaust survivor whose parents starved to death in the Warsaw ghetto.

She was raised Catholic by a family who adopted her after she was rescued at age 5, probably by Irena Sendler, who was credited with saving app 2,500 Jewish children from the ghetto using clandestine means.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The interesting tidbit, for me, is that Orthodoxy
> requires living by the Torah. And from other
> readings, not just picking and choosing what parts
> of the Torah to observe. There is no Cafeteria
> Orthodoxy. And as he mentions, he didn't always
> 'honor his father and his mother...'

Yeah...but you're talking about a people who, to a large extent, live (and recreate, as in "recreation") within a cultural world of legal argument--which is considered one of the higher (perhaps the highest, in real life reality) of what most people would call "worship."

Legal argument, the act of legally arguing and figuring out the ultimate nuances and possibly "hidden meanings," is considered FUN within Judaism and Jewish life.

As I have mentioned here before (several times over the years) one of the proudest moments in the lives of parents is when their child (of any age) is able to legally "reason" why they should NOT have to go to bed at the specified bedtime, or why they should NOT have to do some chore (like cleaning their room) that they don't want to do. When children first begin coming up with logically-based, "winning" arguments, it is a time for family celebration, because a kind of intellectual "coming of age" has just occurred (regardless of the chronological age of the child).

In reality, there actually is a "cafeteria Orthodoxy," and it is used all the time (sometimes, to be accurate, not always for the best). Simple example: in Orthodox Judaism there is a prohibition against having sex with women (and probably men, too, truth be told) who are "prostitutes" (and this is a complicated subject; the word "prostitute" doesn't mean exactly what it means in the English language, but this is not important here). However, granted that this prohibition does exist, then LEGALLY speaking, if someone has sex with someone else, BUT DOES NOT TOUCH THEIR FLESH TO THAT OTHER PERSON'S FLESH, the legal question is: Is this actually "sex" as it is defined within the prohibited domain?

The answer from many Orthodox men (in particular) is: No. So they stay dressed in their clothes and wear a condom, and there is "no touching of flesh," which then means: legally, "no sex" has taken place--so an observant man, with these facts, would not have transgressed this particular law.

A version of "this" is what I was basically "accused of" in Israel, by the Orthodox woman who was very highly offended by me being a vegetarian. As a vegetarian, I am automatically exempted from following probably 95%+ of the laws regarding kashrut--and she thought this was extremely and highly "unfair" to HER!

She actually said to me (with some anger): "If *I* have to do all these things (to keep kosher)...then why do YOU not have to do them?"

She really did perceive ME being a vegetarian as a personal attack on HER!

So: there ARE workarounds, and the workarounds (which often utilize Jewish legal argument) are an integral part of the Jewish legal "system."

The challenge from the perspective of any individual Jew is to consciously use the "workarounds" in ways which make the world (beginning with your own family and your own community) a better, fairer, more healthy and supportive place for everyone (Jew and non-Jew alike).


> So now I'm wondering, how would consciously not
> honoring your parents fly in Orthodox Judaism?

No healthy adolescent "honors their parents" in this particular way without questioning (including, but definitely not limited to, Jewish legal argument), and some measure of rebellion. This is how Jewish kids, just like any other kids, become healthy adults who grow to be, hopefully, a "better" (in at least some ways) generation than are those who are their parents' generation. As a grown Jewish adult, you have an individual responsibility to NOT "honor your parents" if your parents are asking you to do something that you know to be unwise or wrong.

In Jewish life, there is usually a time for everyone to take responsibility and make a stand--regardless of your age, if your parents are wrong.

One of the most important lessons taught to Jewish kids is, basically, how to wisely determine when it is right to ignore your parents' counsel (or error, or prejudices) and take your own stand as an adult person of integrity (remember that the "age of legal Jewish adulthood" is 12 for girls and 13 for boys). This may cause rifts in parental/offspring relationships for awhile, but everyone acknowledges that this is the way Jewish life is SUPPOSED to work.


> And what knowledge, if any, do you have about your
> daughter's relationship with her father?

[I have no idea what this means, or what you are getting at here. ???]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2018 08:17PM by Tevai.

Tevai said:
>Legal argument, the act of legally arguing and figuring out the ultimate nuances and possibly "hidden meanings," is considered FUN within Judaism and Jewish life.

>As I have mentioned here before (several times over the years) one of the proudest moments in the lives of parents is when their child (of any age) is able to legally "reason" why they should NOT have to go to bed at the specified bedtime, or why they should NOT have to do some chore (like cleaning their room) that they don't want to do. When children first begin coming up with logically-based, "winning" arguments, it is a time for family celebration, because a kind of intellectual "coming of age" has just occurred (regardless of the chronological age of the child).



I know you have explained the twisting and manipulation of "laws" before and have also explained the reasons why it is revered. Clearly this is associated with how smart they perceive themselves to be and a reflection of their values.

I remember when I was kid hearing a phrase that I knew must be pejorative toward Jewish people but I never really knew why. I wondered if it just meant the Jewish person was being dishonest. I wondered, if so, why was there a phrase just for them?

I don't know how widespread this expression was back then or now. The phrase is along the lines of "He Jew-ed me out of it." I took it to mean the person thought the Jewish person cheated or argued and ultimately was not honest. I distinctly remember hearing someone tell my dad "He Jew-ed me out of my refund." I'm assuming this would be considered offensive. I would rebuke a person if they said that in front of me about someone.

After reading what you wrote, it made me wonder about the origins of that phrase. I believe the qualities the Jewish culture admires you describe possibly have resulted in the reputation for haggling dishonesty. I suppose there is a grain of truth behind this stereotype. Heck, maybe this could even be taken as a complement since you described the pride taken when someone succeeds at figuring out how to workaround the agreed upon rules (be it a bed time, a religious law or a business transaction).

What you describe may be considered honorable and smart within Judaism, but it is not FUN to others who more value fairness and straightforward transparent honestly without the nuanced workarounds. I do not consider that an honorable or commendable quality.

Your example about "It wasn't really sex" tops the ones I've heard from Mormons. Mormons are amateurs.

I believe the phrase you cited to be a pejorative. In my readings, the phrase was never used to indicate any dishonesty, or unlawfulness. It was a shortcut for "he really drove a hard bargain!"

In Herman Wouk's "City Boy", we are treated to a lengthy scene in which the hero of the book, 11 year old Herbie Bookbinder, is taken to a tailor for a new suit. His mother, oblivious to any care about what people might think of her, grinds and grinds on the tailor, pushing for every discount she can get. She was so intent on getting the best of the tailor, that she ended up buying a bolt a cloth for Herbie's new suit, that was so hideous that it made Herbie a laughing stock, a fact his mother discounted, with the advice that 'you shouldn't worry what people think about you.'

I took it as gospel that Mr. Wouk didn't make all this up, but rather was simply using semi-biographical materials.

Haggling is an old tradition. In first world countries, Jews gained a reputation for being the best hagglers, a position held until the rise of our introduction to the traditions of the peoples of India, China and some Islamic Middle Easterners. Russell Peters says Jews can't hold a candle to his Indian relatives.

In my youth, WASPs seemed to be adverse to haggling, as if such a venture tainted them, as in made them appear to be needy or debased.

There are some industries in which 'haggling' is de rigueur, expected! Can you imagine what a personal injury attorney would think if you accepted his/her first demand!! Talk about ruining someone's day!

Anyway, that word you referred to is a pejorative. Haggling, as in "he would even haggle with the barista!" is fine. Ever been 'full boated' at a car dealership? I wish more people would haggle!

Thanks for another perspective.

It's one thing to haggle. I avoid it when possible.

It's another when there was a hidden twist or"got ya" in the reasoning that comes off as dishonesty.

In some cultures haggling is expected.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know you have explained the twisting and
> manipulation of "laws" before and have also
> explained the reasons why it is revered. Clearly
> this is associated with how smart they perceive
> themselves to be and a reflection of their values.

This is the exact process used to both prosecute and to defend legal cases in our own culture and country...do you consider whoever your local star attorneys are to be guilty of "twisting" and "manipulation," or do you think that these attorneys, whether they are working for the defense or for the prosecution, are using their skills for the good of society? The skills of analysis and detailed expertise in the underlying laws are the same in both instances.
>
>
> I remember when I was kid hearing a phrase that I
> knew must be pejorative toward Jewish people but I
> never really knew why. I wondered if it just meant
> the Jewish person was being dishonest. I wondered,
> if so, why was there a phrase just for them?
>
> I don't know how widespread this expression was
> back then or now. The phrase is along the lines of
> "He Jew-ed me out of it." I took it to mean the
> person thought the Jewish person cheated or argued
> and ultimately was not honest. I distinctly
> remember hearing someone tell my dad "He Jew-ed me
> out of my refund." I'm assuming this would be
> considered offensive. I would rebuke a person if
> they said that in front of me about someone.
>
> After reading what you wrote, it made me wonder
> about the origins of that phrase. I believe the
> qualities the Jewish culture admires you describe
> possibly have resulted in the reputation for
> haggling dishonesty. I suppose there is a grain of
> truth behind this stereotype. Heck, maybe this
> could even be taken as a complement since you
> described the pride taken when someone succeeds at
> figuring out how to workaround the agreed upon
> rules (be it a bed time, a religious law or a
> business transaction).

I think it depends a great deal on the culture. In American culture (through most of the twentieth century) this phrase was used quite a bit among WASP-type Americans of all social classes, and yes, it was a pejorative. It was also the reason why the upper-tier, mostly private (I think!), universities (both undergraduate and graduate studies) used to have "Jew quotas," meaning: ONLY a specific percentage of Jewish students were allowed entrance, regardless of their academic records, their standardized test scores, or their real life accomplishments (such as copyrights and patents).

At various times in European and in Middle Eastern cultures, Jews (who were virtually always legal "aliens") were prized by the crown, or emperor, or whatever because they were a positive asset to either that ruling house or to the country/kingdom (etc.) as a whole--and precisely because they had these kinds of skills which were of tremendous value in governing a country internally, and as a military asset to protect the country internationally.


> What you describe may be considered honorable and
> smart within Judaism, but it is not FUN to others
> who more value fairness and straightforward
> transparent honestly without the nuanced
> workarounds. I do not consider that an honorable
> or commendable quality.

I don't understand why you are conflating ethical values with intellectual skills. From historical times forward, Jews have always been exceedingly concerned with ethics and morality, a topic that Jews have contributed to enormously, both on a philosophical level and on a practical level. A very big sector of Jewish writings and teachings has always been about ethics and morals, and the practical application of these precepts and ideas have always been very important in Jewish life.

If you go to your local school district, and obtain the data that "x" percentage of their students who took the SAT or AP tests scored in the top 1%-3%, does the intellectual skill necessary to achieve these kinds of scores mean that these students have no morals and ethics?

I did indicate that (using the example of a hypothetical man who hired a prostitute) the intellectual process could be misused...but this same kind of misbehavior is true of any peoples I am aware of, in any culture, and in any history worldwide. Certainly this same kind of process was used over three hundred years or so (and is still be used) to justify the theft of Native American land in North America for the benefit of white people...but this doesn't mean that ALL Americans (or Canadians, for that matter; I think they have a similar historical problem) are thieves. One hypothetical example does not characterize either Jews, or Americans, or any other people on this planet.

I could have used another example that was part of our conversion classes on the Jewish laws that apply to Shabbat but it didn't seem as interesting. There are a specified number (I can't remember the number) of things that are allowed on days which are NOT Shabbat, but are prohibited ON Shabbat because they are considered the religious definition of "work": an observant Jew cannot tear things on Shabbat (like a piece of paper)...cannot write (handwrite)...cannot "make fire" (interpreted now as: cannot CHANGE electricity, though you can turn a light on BEFORE sunset, and leave it on until the next sunset, and (in the interim) use that light to read by (or whatever)...and you cannot walk more than a specific distance (like a mile; I forget what the distance is)--all of which prohibitions instantly vanish if "life is in danger." (If life is "in danger," someone needs to go to the hospital or someone needs to buy candy to balance off an insulin imbalance, etc., then it is as if Shabbat does not exist.)

After briefly going through the items on this list, Rabbi Vorspan (my group's main teacher; we were divided into three groups for the academics) said that the things you CAN do on Shabbat can be counterintuitive. For example: you can move furniture all Shabbat long, you can COMPLETELY change the layouts of furniture inside your house, and if you avoid the "work" things (like cutting off a loose thread from a sofa, for example), you are perfectly Shabbat-okay.

This is the "same" logical thinking process as was used in the hypothetical case of the man with the prostitute--which again, is being discussed NOT from the perspective of ethics and morals, but from the perspective of "how to optimally reason"--the SAME thing which is being taught in law schools, in engineering schools, in computer science schools, in mathematics schools, in science schools, and in medicine.


> Your example about "It wasn't really sex" tops the
> ones I've heard from Mormons.

Yeah--which, hopefully, makes the hypothetical example I cited humorous (because this was my intention).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2018 11:32PM by Tevai.

I do see the points you are making.

I'm not convinced the emphasis on religious laws (many of them ridiculous in this day and age) and how to manipulate them equates to a concern for ethics and morality. It seems more like a need to perpetuate and justify cultural traditions at all costs.

I know a Jewish woman who keeps a Kosher kitchen twice the size of one kitchen to have double everything. It's absolutely crazy in this day and age what she does, plus seems not very green. She runs separate dishwashers after meals. This is one example of why I "conflate" intellectual and moral practices.

I think we are going to have to disagree on this topic.

Orthodox jews ?

Are they the ones who spit on little girls ?

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Orthodox jews ?
>
> Are they the ones who spit on little girls ?


When it comes to Judaism, "Orthodox" is an extremely wide spectrum of behaviors and beliefs.

The "black hats" (extreme right of the spectrum, all are in groups led by what we would call cult leaders, and are totally obedient to whatever that cult leader tells them to do--which is literally 100% of every decision made in their lives) are the ones who spit on little girls.

The way you constructed this, you are slurring all Orthodox Jews (including the Modern Orthodox on the left, and all of the middle-of-the-road Orthodox Jews in the various minhagim (Ashkenazi/Sephardi/Mizrahi, etc.).

There is no need to slur anyone other than those who are actually guilty of doing these things, and in this case, it is only the "black hats" (referring to the weird, furry concoctions that the men who are in these extreme-right groups wear).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2018 10:37PM by Tevai.