...feels about this. Trans-gendered athletes competing as girls, both having male hormones in them..

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/transgender-athletes-speak-parents-petition-change-policy-allows-125304496--abc-news-topstories.html

The article states that they were both "assigned the male sex at birth," which tells me that they were (likely) of indeterminate sex or hermaphrodite. They both identify as female and are currently taking female hormones. In this particular case I have no problem with it. Their parents and medical providers made an understandable mistake regarding their gender assignment, and it is in the process of being corrected. Their bodies look far more female to me than male (although their faces are somewhat masculine.)

In cases where a clear male is transitioning to female, I think the argument could be made that the athlete has an unfair advantage. Perhaps a certain length of time on female hormones would be in order before the athlete is allowed to compete as a female.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2018 05:18PM by summer.

I am no expert but I think in reference to transgender the phrase "assigned the male sex at birth" means penis = male, vagina = female. The belief is that gender isn't always the same as biological sex. Intersex is a different issue.

Not lds Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am no expert but I think in reference to
> transgender the phrase "assigned the male sex at
> birth" means penis = male, vagina = female. The
> belief is that gender isn't always the same as
> biological sex. Intersex is a different issue.

Correct me if I am wrong but arent womens cells XX chromosomes and mens XY?
That seems to be a pretty simple test.
Next question for Progressives, if a Trans Gender female who is genetically XY goes to prison do you send her to mens prison?
And if I want out of the draft can I just transition from male to female real quick and dodge the draft that way?
Didnt seem to work for Klinger on MASH.

Klinger was (or was pretending to be) a transvestite, NOT transgender. Big difference. Huge.

Although I have several transgender acquaintances and try to be respectful of their struggle and respect the gender they identify with, I would be dishonest if I didn't say that I still have a hard time coming to terms with all the issues. And there are many of them. But I guess if they allow transgender women to play women's sports, it gives everyone equal footing. They all have the right to go out and recruit their own transgender women. If all teams had to be equal in ability, there would be no competition.

koriwhore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not lds Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I am no expert but I think in reference to
> > transgender the phrase "assigned the male sex
> at
> > birth" means penis = male, vagina = female. The
> > belief is that gender isn't always the same as
> > biological sex. Intersex is a different issue.
>
> Correct me if I am wrong but arent womens cells XX
> chromosomes and mens XY?
> That seems to be a pretty simple test.
> Next question for Progressives, if a Trans Gender
> female who is genetically XY goes to prison do you
> send her to mens prison?
> And if I want out of the draft can I just
> transition from male to female real quick and
> dodge the draft that way?
> Didnt seem to work for Klinger on MASH.

Swyer syndrome is a condition where females have XY sex chromosomes. They have fully developed female genetalia and internal organs (and thus raised female as well) and typically identify as female. However their ovaries are non functioning. Do you prevent them from participating in sports and send them to male prisons? Do you make them use men's bathrooms?

What about XX Male Syndrome, where a person is born with fully developed male sex organs, but has the typical XX female sex chromosomes? Even though they are born and raised male, do you make them participate women's sports? Send them to women's prisons? Make them use women's restrooms?

Chromosomes, genitalia, and hormones each on their own do not always determine sexual identity. In most people, yes they do, but not in all cases. But discrimination laws, and protections for disabled people, exist to protect those who do not fall into what is common for most people. When the disability, or difference, occurs in the brain, it becomes harder for others to see and thus harder for people to accept. Add to that the taboo many people have regarding sexuality, and you have all the questions and issues we have currently.

Personally I do not have the answer to what to do about transgender people participating in athletic competitions, but having known transgender people, I cannot for the life of me fathom anyone going through transition simply for the purpose of obtaining athletic glory.

Given that the United States does not have a draft, arguing that you could transition to get out of said non-existent draft is a bit silly. Of course the military could end the hateful and un-neccesary discrimination against transgender people and the hypothetical argument regarding the draft becomes a moot point.

As for Klinger, he was a fictional character on television sitcom. Don't base your opinions on what is real, or feasible, on comedic fictional characters.

thats less than half of one percent of the population. We should have exceptions for outliers, but we shouldn't legislate for the masses based on such a small percentage.

Not lds Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am no expert but I think in reference to transgender the phrase "assigned the male sex at birth" means penis = male, vagina = female. The belief is that gender isn't always the same as biological sex. Intersex is a different issue.

I considered that, but it is such a peculiar turn of phrase that I interpreted it to mean an indeterminate sex. I could be mistaken.

Tempest in a tea pot. BFD people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2018 05:19PM by saucie.

saucie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tempest in a tea pot. BFD people.


Lolololol, saucie! And, I agree. BFD indeed!

Agree. Red herring used to undermine arguments for much need gender equality policies, legislation, and protections. Ham-fisted attempt to undermine progressive arguments.

Oh yeah? Well, Hitler!

Yep.
This is essentially, "Hey, I found one special instance that needs special consideration, so that undermines all human rights issues for all people not like me!"

For the OP, here's my "progressive" answer:

I look forward to the day when the whole boy/girl issue in sports competition has gone away. When humans (of whatever gender) compete as humans. When there's one PGA tour, not one for men and one for women. Etc. Then your special case thing goes away as an issue as well.

Gay mariachi band.

They are very good.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vthUa2IlQXM


I really don't care,do U ?

All i know is that putting a man against a woman in a boxing ring or cage fighting match is a very bad idea.

Badassadam1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All i know is that putting a man against a woman
> in a boxing ring or cage fighting match is a very
> bad idea.

Depends on the man and the woman.
There are quite a few professional women fighters that could wipe the floor with you (or me), without breaking a sweat.

So much for gender generalizations, huh? :)

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Badassadam1 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > All i know is that putting a man against a
> woman
> > in a boxing ring or cage fighting match is a
> very
> > bad idea.
>
> Depends on the man and the woman.
> There are quite a few professional women fighters
> that could wipe the floor with you (or me),
> without breaking a sweat.
>
> So much for gender generalizations, huh? :)

They could definitely kick my @as especially cyborg Santos.

I expect better from you, Hie.

The point isn't whether a professional biologically female fighter could beat YOU up. It's whether a professional biologically male fighter should be allowed in the octagon with a biologically female fighter just because he said he identifies as female.

The other point about there being no male or female divisions in sports is a better argument. Then you can keep it to weight classes, where biological sex becomes less of an issue.

quidprostatusquo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I expect better from you, Hie.

That would be your issue, not mine.

> The point isn't whether a professional
> biologically female fighter could beat YOU up.
> It's whether a professional biologically male
> fighter should be allowed in the octagon with a
> biologically female fighter just because he said
> he identifies as female.

Actually, the "point" I was referring to, just above in badassadam's post, wasn't that at all.

Here, I'll quote it again for you:
> All i know is that putting a man against a woman
> in a boxing ring or cage fighting match is a very
> bad idea.

See, nothing about biology or identity or anything of the sort. Just "man against woman." I simply pointed out to my buddy badassadam that such generalizations aren't valid -- 'cause there are lots of women that would wipe the floor with lots of men in such a case.

> The other point about there being no male or
> female divisions in sports is a better argument.
> Then you can keep it to weight classes, where
> biological sex becomes less of an issue.

Valid point.
Or...not have weight classes.

I mean, sure, I've done the "competition sport for glory & prizes" thing. Mostly in high school and college, never professionally. Now I play sports for fun. I don't really care if I win or not. I'd probably have been happier as a teen if I had that same attitude -- which doesn't take away from training and getting fit and working hard and such at all. I'm not in the "everybody gets a trophy" crowd, don't get me wrong. It just took me too many years to figure out the joy in sport isn't in beating other people, it's in playing the sport, getting fit, playing with friends, etc. And that if I lose, I'm OK. I'll leave pro sports out of this equation (since it's an entertainment business), and stick with the subject of the OP: who cares if these two win lots of high-school races? Who cares if they're "biologically" whatever? It's not like they pretended to be female just so they can win some high school races. It's high school sports. For fun and fitness and socialization.

Peace.

I should have clarified. A transgendered male professional fighter should not fight against a professional female fighter but it has happened and it pisses me off. I think it is unfair and maybe considered plain out assault or domestic violence type of thing. I don't want to see a man beat the scrap out of a female on live television. That's horrible.

Personally, I don't want to see anybody beat the crap out of anybody. On TV or anywhere else.

But when it comes to "professional" fighters, they're all consenting adults -- gender should be irrelevant, shouldn't it? If a male and female want to fight each other, and both agree to it, what's the problem?

Has anyone thought of the larger lungs, stronger wind capacity of males? Every organ of the male body is different from that of the female. It isn't only about lean muscle mass.

Yes, and that's why in most sports men and women, boys and girls compete separately. It's a question of fairness.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, and that's why in most sports men and women,
> boys and girls compete separately. It's a question
> of fairness.

Thank you, it's totally unfair for a man to compete with the women and dominate and win championships off of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports#Hormone_testing



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2018 11:53PM by anybody.

Yes, and the hormone testing is *nothing* compared to the mandatory drug testing for elite level (Olympic) athletes. Athletes have to register with authorities for drug testing for the entirety of their athletic careers. They have to notify the authorities any time they travel outside of a very limited range, whether in-season for their sport or not. They have to be available for drug testing within a relatively short time window (something like 5 hours,) 24/7, any time and any place whenever they get the random call. They also must pee into a cup within a limited time window after medaling at any sanctioned event. Mess up on ANY of that and the athlete faces suspension from their sport.

I seriously doubt that elite athletes would be in the least bit fazed by hormone testing.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2018 07:52AM by summer.

If we wanted to be really be fair, we would establish classes as they have in boxing for all other sports. In basketball for example, there would be a class for players between the ages of 40 and 50 who weigh between 250 and 300 pounds. Teams could play grouped by class or teams could be given handicaps to balance out individual players. That would mean a team of 90-year olds might win the NBA championship just be getting on the court and standing up for the entire game.

Otherwise, the only other options are:

- open competition for all ages, weights, genders, or,

- play sports just for the fun of it and for personal improvement. But where is the profit in that?

Pro-sports is a business, not sport. It will do what is best for the bottom line.

I think it's great! Since we can all self identify what subgroups we want to be in now in this politically correct post modern world. Just because we speak it, it must be true. Everyone can find their own personal truth that is unique. Never mind that the male body has the advantage of higher testosterone from childhood that creates denser bones that withstand higher forces. Or that the male body has higher upper body strength derived from substantially higher testosterone than females.

Feelings matter more than biology.

That's kind of what I was thinking...Imagine a nice strong, tones male athlete doesn't make it on what college, pro, Olympic team...so he "decides" to "identify" as a women, and all of a sudden..."she" gets to compete with others like "her"...though those others were female at birth..so.............

nonmo_1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's kind of what I was thinking...Imagine a
> nice strong, tones male athlete doesn't make it on
> what college, pro, Olympic team...so he "decides"
> to "identify" as a women, and all of a
> sudden..."she" gets to compete with others like
> "her"...though those others were female at
> birth..so.............


You really think it's that's easy to be transgender?

Real people who are transgender don't just decide to be the other gender one day. The scenario you are describing is not one where the person is transgender. It is that of a male who identifies as male trying to commit fraud because he's a sexist POS that thinks girls aren't as good of athletes.

Yes, I do believe it is that easy, and it happens every day.

jthomas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, I do believe it is that easy, and it happens
> every day.

Provide documented examples of it "happening." Any day.
Go ahead, we'll wait...

I'm a tiger I decided to identify by.

What Happens When the Trans Movement Meets Sports?

The stories are repeated throughout the women’s sports world. In New Zealand in 2017, 39-year-old Laurel (formerly Gavin) Hubbard set four national records in women’s weightlifting after years competing in the sport as a man.

Fifty-year-old Gabriella (Robert) Ludwig, who stands 6-feet-6 and weighs 220 pounds, joined the girls basketball team at Mission College. Cycling, volleyball, marathons, softball—all have seen the emergence of dominant trans athletes, smashing records and often leaving the female competition far behind.

This isn’t new. The “Barr body test”—an examination of sex at the chromosomal level—was instituted in the 1970s in response to the professional tennis career of Renée Richards (formerly Richard Raskind) who had been ranked No. 13 in the nation in men’s 35-and-over tennis, began competing in women’s tennis after undergoing a sex-change operation (the preferred contemporary nomenclature is “gender-confirmation” therapy) in 1975. Richards refused to take the Barr body test and, after being excluded from the U.S. Open and Wimbledon, filed a discrimination lawsuit against the U.S. Tennis Association. That was the end of the chromosome test.

Judge Alfred M. Ascione’s opinion in the case is barking mad, entertaining reading, and an excellent foretelling of the Orwellian newspeak regime to come: “When an individual such as plaintiff, a successful physician, a husband and father, finds it necessary for his own mental sanity to undergo a sex reassignment, the unfounded fears and misconceptions of defendants must give way to the overwhelming medical evidence that this person is now female.”

Stop and appreciate that the clause “give way to overwhelming medical evidence that this person is now female” appears in a judicial order suppressing the overwhelming medical evidence that this person is male.


https://www.weeklystandard.com/kevin-d-williamson/transgender-athletes-are-challenging-the-definitions-of-sports

Please tell us about this "more progressive crowd".