https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQaotscZuL8

I love watching clips from this impressive guy.

His argument is that abusers rather want to talk about what is bad in life but will put down every attempt to get new perspectives or attempts to make a critical change in life.

I have this problem with two siblings. They gaslight och stonewall constructive arguments but are open to talk about my problems.

If I tell them that I experienced something that changed my perspective in life they downplay it, "No, Pharmakos, it is not like that, you are dead wrong" but if I talk about feeling blue or stuck they are 100% behind me.

Wow. I just spent the past hour watching this guy's videos. He doesn't mince words, does he? I don't know if living in a cult breeds narcissism, or whether people with narcissistic tendencies are drawn to cult's practices and philosophies...but I've met more than my share being raised in TSCC.

This helps thanks. My father uses these types of tricks on me. Good guy/bad guy type of stuff to confuse me.

My older sister used to draw me out about my psychological problems, but she wouldn't ever talk about hers. Sure enough, she re-joined the church and married in the temple at age 63.

I know now that I was being manipulated by her the same way my narcissistic father gaslighted me. Lovers of themselves.

donbagley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My older sister used to draw me out about my
> psychological problems, but she wouldn't ever talk
> about hers. Sure enough, she re-joined the church
> and married in the temple at age 63.
>
> I know now that I was being manipulated by her the
> same way my narcissistic father gaslighted me.
> Lovers of themselves.

I think my older sister does the same thing.

Just goes to show cult members are slime. F them all. More people need to get angry about this cult and how it ruins lives.

jett Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just goes to show cult members are slime. F them
> all. More people need to get angry about this
> cult and how it ruins lives.

I feel you. I have to remember the laws of the land though that protects that operation. I don't want to get locked up and give them any satisfaction on me again. The only way I can win is to get totally healthy I think.

Since I get help, I'm the only one with a problem, so if anything goes wrong in the family, they can point at me. My older sister has always been that way. Everything was always my fault. She has never once apologized to me no matter what her error was, but I'm supposed to always apologize to her.

AND they all just talk AT ME. Nobody listens, so I go to a therapist. In the midst of the worst of my life, they'd come to me with their problems. My therapist was quite shocked by it. Oh well. Cut the sister off. My brothers aren't anything like my sisters, but sometimes they still point in my direction.

My dad listened to me and so did my mom when they got older.

The one thing that keeps my sister away is to have a man in my life. She's afraid of any man I'm with. She does it to my younger sister, too, and her own kids.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2018 05:32PM by cl2.

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since I get help, I'm the only one with a problem,
> so if anything goes wrong in the family, they can
> point at me. My older sister has always been that
> way. Everything was always my fault. She has never
> once apologized to me no matter what her error
> was, but I'm supposed to always apologize to her.
>
> AND they all just talk AT ME. Nobody listens, so I
> go to a therapist. In the midst of the worst of my
> life, they'd come to me with their problems. My
> therapist was quite shocked by it. Oh well. Cut
> the sister off. My brothers aren't anything like
> my sisters, but sometimes they still point in my
> direction.
>
> My dad listened to me and so did my mom when they
> got older.
>
> The one thing that keeps my sister away is to have
> a man in my life. She's afraid of any man I'm
> with. She does it to my younger sister, too, and
> her own kids.

You and me both are the identified patients in the family. I am the only one in the family that gets professional help and my family always thinks they are fine being in mind control or something. If they go to church and have a temple recommend, they are sane in their mind. I think they all need help and that includes extended family.

To pack pecking order or pack hierarchy. Possibly a great question is why one takes the prey submissive non dominant role discloses. And another great question is how one changes not be pretty non dominant or picked on in a family chain of command.

Because of my ideals I value non combatant non aggression non violent change . Perhaps simply avoiding family predators and the set family chain of pecking order is one answer.

This reminds me of the church because the bishop always expects a direct answer, immediate obedience to callings, always drew you out wanted no suggestions for yourself or any others to improve your life.

It's like a bishops conversation: they non socratic seminar style of keeping those beneath him both unsettled and subjugated as well.

I personally think that one way we're groomed to be the victim of a narcissist in TSCC is by the constant and flagrant crossing of personal boundaries by leadership. If we don't allow their invasions and permit them with a smile on our faces, we're indoctrinated to think that there is something wrong with US. This warped view of reality is presented as good and true, when in fact we are progressively being made more and more unhealthy.

Unindoctrinated Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I personally think that one way we're groomed to
> be the victim of a narcissist in TSCC is by the
> constant and flagrant crossing of personal
> boundaries by leadership. If we don't allow their
> invasions and permit them with a smile on our
> faces, we're indoctrinated to think that there is
> something wrong with US. This warped view of
> reality is presented as good and true, when in
> fact we are progressively being made more and more
> unhealthy.

Yes, I agree with this. They made violating personal boundaries seem normal. Therefore they could walk all over you.

somewhere siblings take roles in family & in conversations with each other, somehow assume those family roles.

the question is how to revise those roles.

instead of being the turkey everyone else is going to peck in the old family pecking order.

how do you come out on top, or in another place in the game?

This is reminiscent of roles or pecking order in the Mormon ward. When the bishop approaches the ward member appropriately respectful immediately responds to each bishops query, immediately schedules their life to attend any bishops meeting, lives their life ready to reply instantly when the bishop engages, and never, ever, is the bishop available or open to ideas for improvement greater effectiveness or problem solutions from a female ward member. the bishop draws out female members when engaging with them, and dis respects their input so entirely, the bishop is just like the conversation style described in the initial post directly, drawing out ward members in conversation, then refusing to accept any positive input or problem solving solutions from that person they drew out. the bishop intends to stay on top in the pecking order and demands that as seen in their conversational style.

Does the video address the concept of the man in authority drawing out subordinates then refusing to allow them to problem solve? drawing out and directly questioning them like a bishop and then demanding they do exactly the steps directed by him and overseen by him and reported back to him? just like a bishop? totally disempowering the individual over problem solving, just like a Mormon bishop. Is the bishop's interview meant to be overly directive, or anxiety provoking establishing authority and dominance over, through shame and providing guilt (evidence of guilt) like speaking to a prosecuting attorney or an interrogation? is that the Mormon priesthood authority way, actually? Its not a teaching interaction or a facilitator interaction or a coaching interacting. So many parts of interviews techniques and follow up responses - seem like the initial post. But it wasn't in family, it was in conversation with bishops and branch presidents. This is eery the bishop's conversation style is so similar to the original post' description. hmmm.

now in family, when one is placed in a sibling role not at the top of the pecking order, and someone is trying to subjugate you forcing you to conform with their family hierarchy, and is emotionally abusive towards you, then how do you change the hierarchy in the old family?

I have ideals. Because of my ideals (which are my own, and I understand, may not be shared ideals by all) I value non aggression and non violence. Even in the face of adults attempting emotional abuse I value, for my part, non aggression and non violence in the setting- with which i can vote with my feet or put down the phone and disengage. Simply avoiding the family pecking order is one answer. IN my ideals, (which you do not have to share, of course) I value non aggressive and non violent change in my own life, and in my dealings with others. So if siblings can't somehow simply sort themselves out in their "rude" or if they're unpleasant and non positive with me, I just don't see how they can change.

One of the many videos I watched was entitled something like, "How to heal from a narcissist's negative energy." I found it enlightening. The last thing a narcissist wants is for you to take back your power or your own voice, because it's a threat to them. They need the constant supply of your subservience to bolster and reinforce their self-promulgated feelings of superiority. When your self-talk is positive, your energy begins to focus on you and your health. The narcissist can't have you becoming healthy or s/he won't be able to control you as easily. Narcissists don't build anything of value. They're only capable of tearing down and damaging those. I think that's the pathology.