Today following worship services, we had a traditional kiddush following the meeting. That's like a lunch/brunch affair - with food laid out like a buffet for attendees to eat following services.

There is one woman who comes each week who is mentally disabled - but otherwise not usually offensive.

Well today she made a food grab like nothing I had seen before. She normally piles her plate with bagels and cookies. Because she's thin as a rail, I've wondered where all that food goes each week? Well today I need wonder no more.

She keeps a large handbag with her, and I watched as she dumped plateloads of food into her large bag. But she didn't stop with the bagels or the cookies.

Next thing I'm watching is she's using her left hand like a claw and grabbing up the egg salad from the food table with her open hand! From there, instead of transferring it from the table to her plate to go sit down and eat it like the rest of us do (while using a food utensil,) she's using her hand to pile it into her purse with the rest of her goodies. I was appalled.

People none the wiser were still going to that food table and helping themselves to what was there, including the egg salad.

I asked the women at my table what was protocol regarding that horrible bad mannerism of this seemingly autistic woman who comes week after week doing the same thing?

They were as appalled as I was. But said the protocol was to do nothing. She would not be banned or barred. The caterers or those eating from the edibles would remain none the wiser by our silence. Why? Because it is Jewish to not condemn or remove the disabled from their midst.

If this had happened @ TSCC, such an event would be ratified swiftly by asking the offender to cease and desist. In the event that message didn't get through, they'd be asked to leave and not return for disrupting the services. (Also Messianic would do this to such a visitor, as would TSCC.)

But not the Jewish.

I learned something new today. Was it kosher? Absolutely not. Is it hygienic? Obviously a gross failure. But it is the charitable thing to do. The higher observance.

ETA: I did however avoid the egg salad.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2018 06:02PM by Amyjo.

She could have had feces on her hand for all we know. It is a public health risk and needs to be addressed IMO.

Well today wasn't the day.

Her late father was a Nobel prize winning physicist. There's a fine line between genius and madness.

In view of things like the "DIFF" exposure that put Catnip in the hospital, I agree that something needs to be done. Here's what I'd do:

--Continue to bring dishes like egg salad, but I'd assemble little single-serve containers and make a cute mound of them like cupcakes or something.

Poor dear lady. You guys are a wonderful bunch.

The food is catered, Kathleen.

Maybe I'll place a phone call during the week after Shabbat, to ask the office if it's something they're aware of?

Or the women's president. The table I was sitting at are parishioners like me.

It was really sickening watching her. She has no idea how to function in normal society. I've watched her every week taking the bagels and such finger foods. This is the first time I've seen her using her hands to grab the food by the handful, while placing into her handbag. My goodness, it was EGG SALAD!

She isn't the type to wash her hands before eating either. I feel sorry for her. But that is inexcusable. Remember Helen Keller?

Her family let her get away with bad behavior. Until they hired Anne Sullivan, Helen didn't know how to behave. Only this woman is an older woman who acts like she's basically retarded. As for food handling, she has set new lows.

Thry ignore her rather than help her?

I doubt she'd let anyone help her. She walks around people and doesn't interact with others at all. People have told me she gets very angry if someone were to try to correct her on anything.

Or let her know in advance that a care package with an assortment of food has been prepared for her to take home.

She was better behaved this past Saturday, after bringing her bad behavior to the attention of people who have authority to tell her what isn't acceptable. She still dove into the egg salad, but this time she used a utensil.

It was, at a minimum, the way things are done in civilized society.

We have a lot to say about mormons, but the mormons in my disabled brother's ward are really good to him. We couldn't keep him living in our parents' home without their help. He lets his pants hang down in the back. The elder's quorum president asked him to please wear suspenders. I don't know if he does as he doesn't wear them when I see him.

The neighbors across the street, we grew up with them, one son lives there now with his family. They watch out for my brother. He has a friend from his childhood who is not disabled, but always watched out for my brother and still does. My brother is 53. Imagine having a friend do that? He was friends with him in high school and this guy is perfectly normal and nice looking. He still does things like changes his clutch, etc., in his truck.

Some of the ward members will take him to get a full tank of gas. Even my cousin, who I don't like much, watches out for my brother, who is in the same ward.

So it isn't so. These people who watch out for my brother are SAINTS. It does my heart good to know there are still people like them in the world.

That is heart warming, Cl2, to know there are people like that for your brother.

I've known of people who were refused baptism because of their disabilities, if they were severe enough. A Down's Syndrome person who grew up in my childhood ward. And a semi-retarded wannabe convert.

At a Messie synagogue I attended for a time, a 14-year old autistic child of a regular member was told he wasn't welcome anymore because of his disruptiveness. So his mother couldn't attend either.

So far such people don't get rejected at my shul. This grown adult woman who is severely autistic, is still a member of the synagogue. People avoid her though, because she ignores everyone around her like they're not even there.

I always thought that "shul" was kind of like primary, and "yeshiva" was for higher-order learning. So if you attend "shul," my understanding is not quite on target. Can you 'splain me," as Ricky Ricardo used to say?

Shul means synagogue. Yeshiva is an orthodox school - it can be elementary all the way up to university.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I've known of people who were refused baptism
> because of their disabilities, if they were severe
> enough. A Down's Syndrome person who grew up in my
> childhood ward. And a semi-retarded wannabe
> convert.


I've seen the same thing and wondered about it, Amyjo. In theory under the Mormon system, eight-year-olds whose cognitive development is within the "normal" range are considered to have adequate cognitive function to be baptized. Because age-appropriate mental function occurs within a range and not at a specific pin-point, according to their rules, pretty much anyone with a mental age of seven years should be intellectually competent for baptism. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with them that a mental age of seven years is quite adequate for the person to be accountable for himself, but such is a de facto interpretation of their rules.

Wouldn't it be better to be less judgmental about it? If a person wants to be baptized and agrees to the terms of baptism, why not just baptize the person? Wouldn't God and Jesus be able to sort it out later? If a person really took all of the "it will have to be sorted out in the Millenium" crap seriously, wouldn't it be preferable to baptize the person if in doubt? The person who is in charge of the afterlife could easily invalidate any baptism that should not have taken place. If baptizing any of us now is important, wouldn't it be better to baptize everyone who wants to be baptized? Obviously the brethren shouldn't be rolling gurneys up to baptismal fonts and lifting the bodies of people in vegetative states off them and dragging them into the fonts for baptism, but it would seem that anyone who is lucid enough to express a desire for baptism should be considered to meet the minimum cognitive competency standard.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2018 07:17PM by scmd1.

scmd1 said: "...the brethren shouldn't be rolling gurneys up to baptismal fonts and lifting the bodies of people in vegetative states off them and dragging them into the fonts for baptism"

Hey, don't be giving them any ideas!


I've often wished for just what you said - that believers would truly "let go and let God" as my EV friends say. If they really believed all that they say about how things are and should be maybe some of them that are overly preachy or even interfering could ease up a little. Such as not being over-the-top fervent in their apparent concern about what others are doing, believer and non-believer alike.

I agree, scmd. Why not let them be baptized, if that is their wishes? It would be the Christian & charitable thing to do.

Why wait until they're dead to do their work for them after they're gone? Stupid is as stupid does.

If you're going to baptize someone who wants to be, do it while they're living. Think of all the souls the morg has denied its version of salvation to?

I was always told that anyone severely mentally handicapped would be given a free pass to the CK anyway. That they were just down here to get a body.

If thats the case, then being mentally disabled should make you a shoe-in.

What bad could happen? They'll sin and suddenly be undercondemnation because somebody dunked them and said magic words, whereas if they hadn't they'd be home free?

It could be that she needs the food. Your temple or synagogue might consider assigning her someone that can help her use a spoon for certain dishes. Or perhaps she could be helped to make up a bag that she can take with her. If she knew that she could take home a plastic container of salad she might be less inclined to put her hands in it.

She acts severely autistic. One of the women at my table is a retired school teacher, and she agreed she thinks that's what's wrong with her.

Maybe someone could be assigned to help her get her food and then pack up a box for her to take home. If done tactfully, it would be compassionate and a lot more sanitary

People have told me that she becomes really angry if someone says something to her about her table etiquette. Not sure that would work.

Perhaps if you did it tactfully using some excuse other than her manners it would work. Maybe just try to be friendly and put it out as helping her. If she is older or has trouble getting around that could be a reason for offering to serve her and get her a nox to take home.

She lacks cognitive skills for communicating. If someone were to try and offer that kind of assistance she'd go around them or push them away. She isn't the kind of person you can reason or rationalize with.

Maybe there is no 'solution.' If that's the case, then what the women at my table may be the standard or norm the synagogue has been using for years. Her dad has been deceased for a long time, I think. One of his daughters lives in MD, and is very successful.

This one lives in some kind of a group home when she isn't at shul. I honestly don't know how she manages when interacting at home.

"Because it is Jewish to not condemn or remove the disabled from their midst."

So if five or six similar people decided to help themselves at your next dinner, leaving nothing for anyone else and ruining what they didn't take, there'd be no problem with that?

The little children are better behaved.

I agree. It wouldn't pass the food safety smell test by the state were an inspector on site.

Five or six people *aren't* doing that. One mentally disabled woman is.

But she does need help going through the food line.

This behavior is not what autistic people do. She has some other problem. I hope she's getting whatever treatment and support she needs. Sadly, it doesn't sound like it.

Re the table etiquette part. In many situations in life sometimes the one must be sacrificed for the good of all. Not wishing to interfere or offend by intervening in this situation is putting others at risk, as mentioned above. It just cannot be allowed. There are already enough incidents of picnic/church-gatherings food poisonings every year. It must surely be at the very least exceptionally unappetizing to see a person doing this at table. Failing to warn others about the potentially contaminated food is not an option. The risk to attendees is more crucial than a wish to spare this woman's feelings. Too, the organizers or institution could potentially be liable if people became ill from contaminated food that could reasonably be seen to be a risk.

Good luck with what sounds like a tough situation. But I wouldn't just ignore and hope for the best. If I wouldn't eat from a dish I knew was potentially contaminated neither would I walk away and let others help themselves when they are unaware of the situation.

I'm slightly germophobic anyway. I always avoid egg and potato salad at picnics and large gatherings. Especially church. Such a cliche but there is a large grain of truth there.

AJ said: "... Because it is Jewish to not condemn or remove the disabled from their midst." "The higher observance".

It sounds really nice, AmyJo. But. Surely common sense trumps other considerations. Principles lose something if they make no sense in light of certain circumstances.

Do not various solutions present themselves other than to "remove" or "condemn" the woman?

I know it's easy for outsiders to offer simplistic ideas, unable to visualize what is really going on that causes degrees of difficulty in seeking solutions. But to me the overarching issue is one of prevention of threats to public health. Could someone offer to assist the woman in serving up her meal? I really like the idea of individualized portions mentioned above. It may not only be this one woman who could inadvertently contaminate the food. Etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2018 08:00PM by Nightingale.

I think everyone is omitting consideration of a very important clue: the potato salad assailant is the daughter of a Nobel prize winner! A Jewish Nobel prize winner!

Imagine what the daughter of a GA could get away with in a run of the mill ward!!

I was wondering if that personal detail could inadvertently ID the woman IRL, which we try hard here not to do.

It could be a great unkindness to this woman and her family.

(Surely this detail could not be a reason at all for failing to find a solution to this dilemma?)

I've left a message for a past temple and women's president to contact me so I can ask her if she is aware of this woman's handling the food the way she did yesterday?

She'll know what to do, or not to do.

Have spoken with the woman from synagogue who knows this person's background, and who else to contact to let them know of her behavior this past Saturday.

The person who is responsible for helping her to attend services is the one I'll speak to next, so maybe she can keep an eye on her during the oneg following worship time.

Both of her parents were geniuses, according to my friend from shul. It may be the daughter inherited the same genes that overlap into insanity, since there's a fine line between the two.

The severely autistic woman returned today, but this time she used a spoon for her egg salad. But only after dumping a large plate of bagels from her plate into the trash can first.

The woman I spoke to last week came up to me and let me know she spoke to several others since I spoke with her. They are aware of it now, and are dealing with the issue. I let her know that today she used a spoon. She wasn't pleased about the bagel thing, but it was at least sanitary, if not wasteful.

This woman is aware enough to be able to moderate her own behavior accordingly when she has to.

Again, note that it isn't even considered to ban this person from attending. She is still a part of the proverbial tribe, disability and all.

And that I find heartening. She has not been denied membership because of her mental impairment. You cannot say the same for Mormon baptisms.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Again, note that it isn't even considered to ban
> this person from attending. She is still a part of
> the proverbial tribe, disability and all.
>
> And that I find heartening. She has not been
> denied membership because of her mental
> impairment. You cannot say the same for Mormon
> baptisms.


Amyjo, from this and many of your posts, you are clearly cut from a different bolt of cloth than many (most) people. Glad I know you, even if it's anonymously on a bulletin board.

Kathleen,

Thank you, that is very kind of you to say and mean. This is one of the things I simply love about having a Jewish reference for comparison. And that is the concept of inclusiveness. They really try to look out for each other, and make allowances for those who are lesser endowed, and the less fortunate among them.

They really try to practice what they preach. They aren't perfect. They are far from sainthood. But the effort and heart is there. They seem to care deeply for one another.

At TSCC you could usually count on one hand who your true friends were. Trust was a misnomer. It's nice to have a church family to belong to, even if it means going to a synagogue to find one. ;-)

That's a part of Judaism that is very genuine and authentic. There's an inter-connectedness I haven't found elsewhere in other religious life. :)

She was very rich. She's scoop up all the shrimp at the Biltmore buffet, steal blankets from the plane. She volunteered at a thrift shop in Montecito and take home all the nice things (till they got wise.)

What did she do with all this stuff? Why, give it you him and his wife as presents.

Your friend's grandma was mentally competent while getting away with all that. I wonder what makes someone steal like that who doesn't need to? Is it kleptomania? She almost sounds like she can't help herself.

My favorite story was that she made my friend promise to bury her next to her husband in Valley Forge. But she didn't want to pay for it. So he had to sneak her urn in and dig a hole next to her husband - in a national monument - and lob her in.

He did.

Helps to be rich - otherwise she might have been arrested.

Glad she can R.I.P. lol.

That's pretty wild, especially for her grandson. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2018 05:25PM by Amyjo.