Mormonism should probably be included as well...

https://www.christianpost.com/news/pope-francis-denounces-prosperity-gospel-preachers-who-worship-money-164281/

It's running rampant here in America, Mostly all stemming from Texas (around San Antonio). And broadcast on TBN. We got the likes of:

Joel-I-can't-help-the-hurricane-victims,
fish-lips-woman Joyce Meyer,
God hates democrats! John Haggee,
and of course demon possessed Benny Hinn.

What's up with the South? Is it the heat? Lack of things to do? Maybe too many cotton fields to look at?

...he says from his golden throne in the most opulent, gold-encrusted religious palace in the history of the world, as the leader of the richest religion ever.

Oops.

Christ you beat me to it. Vatican City sits on about 15 billion euros in cash/stocks. We know this because there was a huge banking scandal in the last few years.

But the value of the real property at Vatican City is where the real wealth is found. How much is the value of masterpieces by Michelangelo, Botticelli, Rafael, and others? What is the value of the collection of historical artifacts including the Apollo Belvedare and Laocoon? And what do you think the real estate value is of St Peters or the Sistine Chapel?

I agree with Francis that religion and money are strange bed fellows. I just wonder if he agrees with himself.

I hear what you are saying, but at least modern day Catholicism does not bleed its members dry. Catholics tend to donate in accordance with their incomes, generally somewhere between 1-3%. Catholics would not want very poor members to donate at all. There is no sense that "God" is owed anything in terms of money.

Sure, and how would Francis go about selling La Pieta anyway? There are probably only a handful of people who could afford the sculpture and they don't have that money because they are prone to spending 2 billion dollars on one work of art.

So lots of the wealth is tied up in invaluable artifacts and property and most of it exists because of appreciation. As an aside, how much do you think Rafael got paid to paint "The School of Athens"?

It's old money so it is better than new/Mormon money.



Jokes aside I understand you point.

I want the art to stay where it can be seen by everyone-not in some private collections.

Yes, the Vatican is a huge, beautiful museum of Renaissance art.

Not to mention, were it not for the patronage of the CC during the Renaissance, those masters who created all that art wouldn't have been able to do so. They were hired by the popes, after all.

rude people.

It was bad enough that there were wall-to-wall people, and for the most part, all you could see was the back of other peoples' heads. I kept my daypack wrapped in my arms, for fear of pickpockets.

There were signs all over, in many languages that I recognized and several others that I didn't, saying "Silence." Most of the visitors were courteous enough to be quiet. But there was one group - some kind of Asians, I think - that not only kept talking, but didn't even lower their voices. They didn't even take a hint when people kept turning around and glaring at them.

One of the most cherished places in Christendom, and those people just kept jib-jabbering as if they were in a coffee shop. It still makes me angry to remember their rudeness. I tried very hard to shut them out, mentally, but didn't do very well.

Between the great herd of people, the incessant yapping of that particular group, and being hurried along by the tour guides, my visit to that lovely place was disappointing. I had looked forward to that visit with such eagerness - what a let-down.

For my money (oops!) Francis is right on target on this. America is the land of opportunity and optimism, which I'm all for. The problem is that this attracts the deplorable prosperity gospel and the miscreants who exploit it to their advantage. On many issues, Francis, comes out of the Latin American school of "Liberation Theology," and is more to the social/political left than I'm comfortable with. But he's "right on!" on this.

Note that Christian Science, like LDS, draws from the toxic prosperity gospel waters, also. Minor note: Joyce Meyer is more New Age than Christian, but "name it and claim it" thinking is common to New Agers also.

He can be "right" (and in this case, I think he is) and still be a hypocrite...:)

Back in the 60s there was a play, "Hadrian IV," about a Pope who abandoned all the trappings of ecclesiastical royalty. Walked incognito in the streets, put all the jewels and things on the market. In the end, he was assassinated by an Ulsterman.

I don't think we can call him a hypocrite unless we know his heart more. I'll guess he believes what he preaches, but I'm not his confessor. Maybe "false prophet" is more accurate for what you're getting at, Hie.

As Obama said, "At a certain point, just how much money do you need?" I'd like to ask Zuckerberg, Bezos, and a few others that question.

Much of the wealth was taken in centuries past, but also a lot has been donated. In this case, it's a different kind of works and prosperity gospel: people believing that donating earns them spiritual merit and security in the afterlife. You and I would agree this is wrong, but for different reasons, Hie: You, in that there is no afterlife, and me, in that this is not the way it is won. Either way, it is futile to think that donating or bequesting material goods/$$$ to any church secures salvation.

The Catholic church doesn't just have "old money."

https://money.cnn.com/2015/09/24/news/pope-francis-visit-vatican-catholic-church/index.html

And caffiend, I agree completely: it's futile to think that donating or bequesting material goods/$$$ to any church secures salvation.

I also think the Catholics and mormons, while they have different approaches to getting their followers' money (mormons demand 10% from everyone, Catholics mostly leave the poor alone but go after their very rich members for big $$$), it's the same scam under a different name.

I'd love to see some "christian" church that actually does what bible jesus said to do regarding money/wealth/power. There are a few (very few) that do far better than the Catholics and mormons, but none I've ever seen that are true to their supposed founder's lifestyle instructions.

At least Catholics have enough compassion for their poor not to demand or expect money from them. Mormons don't care what happens to you and yours after you fork it over to them.

President Trump is surrounded by Prosperity Gospel politicians.

And they operate food banks, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, resettle refugees and help the poor regardless of religion. They arent perfect, but that is more than Mormons or prosperity gospel churches do

I agree too.
Still...it's a "tallest of the dwarfs" thing...

After all, being "better than the mormons" isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2018 09:19AM by ificouldhietokolob.

The Sisters of Charity from New Orleans did at Carlisle in Lousiana--

http://neworleanshistorical.org/items/show/1280

...and so did Father Damien

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Damien


I might not believe in their religion or forgive them for Hypatia, Galileo, or Giordando Bruno, etc but they stopped doing that and now try to help others.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2018 12:55PM by anybody.

Well, as a side note, something like 5 million people go through the Vatican museums, which represent nearly the entire history of mankind; so many in fact, that the stale breath of all those visitors is what endangers the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel--"Keep moving, no photo's, keep moving, no photo's!"

So it's not like their treasures are locked away in a granite vault. Well, maybe the alien corpses and proof that Jesus was Elvis' g-g-g-g-g-grandfather are, but...

That collection of mystic beliefs known as "New Age spirituality" is also a prosperity gospel, of sorts. I was talking with one such devotee, and he mentioned the "Law of Attraction." "I think wealth, and thus I attract it." (Note: He's not an abjectly greedy materialist.)

In Christian Science, we had the "Rule of Reciprocity," "Law of this..." and the "such-and-such Principle," etc.

In LDS did you reference, circulate and (try to) practice any such rules, laws precepts, and maxims? I'd love to hear them, the context they were shared. Wealth-and-health ones, especially.

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In Christian Science, we had the "Rule of
> Reciprocity," "Law of this..." and the
> "such-and-such Principle," etc.

"Mary Baker Eddy, the founder of Christian Science, has sometimes been cited as having used Quimby [the "founder" of the "Law of Attraction"] as inspiration for theology. Eddy was a patient of Quimby’s and shared his view that disease is rooted in a mental cause. Because of its theism, Christian Science differs from the teachings of Quimby."

Birds of a feather?

Raised in mormonism, I don't recall being taught similar things. I *was* taught that prayed-over olive oil was magical, when dropped on your head by a priesthood-holder and accompanied by a prayer of healing. But the lesson there, as I received it, was the power of the priesthood -- your own thoughts were largely irrelevant (if you were the one being healed).

Of course, all the methods above are equally effective...:)

We know that as a somewhat diluted prosperity gospel, people in LDS tend to believe that their righteousness (however defined) will somehow lead to personal prosperity, health, and other blessings.

What I'm fishing for are any of those aphorisms, proverbs, and cliches that are commonly articulated to either invoke, or explain, good fortune ("blessings").

Christian Science has loads of them, as well as a theological world view that overlaps with New Age precepts. You're right about Quimby and "New Thought," Hie. From Quimby, who was basically a mesmerist with spiritualized explanations), you got CS, Unity, and lesser progeny like Religious Science, Mind Science, and Science of Mind. They share a pool of mind-over-matter concepts and vocabulary.

I'm a little rusty, but out of this nest sprang Harry Fosdick, who was something of a mentor to Norman Vincent Peale, whose "Power Of Positive Thinking" was waterered down New Thought.

(I myself practice the "Power of Positive Pessimism." If you always expect the absolute worst, you're never disappointed or caught off guard when things go south, but are pleasantly surprised when they work out.)

"Dear Pope Francis, if money is so evil, why did Jesus have a treasurer?"

Yours,

Matt

PS Catholic Church isn't shy of a bob or two, is it?

He was a mendicant in that he, and his disciples, subsisted on alms, freely offered gifts of money, food, and necessities. Although we think of him walking around Israel, Judah, and the environs with his twelve disciples, it seems that there was a larger entourage of followers, some of them wealthy. Therefore, he had a keeper of the purse, Judas, who stole from it.

Since he traveled, he was itinerant, in that he did not keep to one town, city, or synagogue.

The Roman Catholic church is so large, diverse, and multifaceted, I don't think any one ledger is capable of tracking its assets and operations. I'm not a Catholic, but as I mentioned in posts with Hie2Kolob, above, I do think Francis is right in denouncing the Prosperity Gospel, in all its insidious permutations (emphasis on "mutations"). As Paul teachers (1 Timothy 6),

(G)odliness with contentment is great gain, for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world. But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs. (ESV)