One thing growing up I noticed was that while there were some interesting ideas in Mormonism there was a huge gaping hole which lacked profundity. In other words, looking upon Mormonism I saw some interesting shimmering across a vast body of water but when I tried to dive deep into it I noticed their kiddie pool never tapered into any depth.

For example, I liked the following ideas conceptually but in most of them they were a let down in my particular human experience of them. My natural human experience was an enemy to these concepts.

Pre-existence.
Forever family.
God has a body like me.
Sex (mating) is a Celestial concept.
There are higher powers people can harness.

My pre-existence was according to me pedigree probably the highest point in my existence. I'm naturally curious and questioning so my mortal existence was doomed. I disliked most of the time most of my family. That was doomed. Being bisexual I imagined God's body as something I would be sexually attracted to and finding a soul mate to cross the stars with going to Kolob has always been complicated by my natural sexual duality. And finally, the Phenomenal Cosmic Powers in my Itty Bitty Living Space (body) just didn't seem to materialize.

At the time of my leaving mentally the Mormons it was because Joseph Smith was a sexual predator. It was the use of sex not as a Celestial concept but as self gratification from a man selling it as a Celestial concept.

It wasn't the first time I tried to dive deep into Mormonism and got my own blood all over myself from my knows (better) I mean nose. But it was the most painful time hitting the bottom of Mormonism because I had been a victim of a predator using emotional appeal to get sexual gratifications. It hurt more than my testimony of these fantasy land ideas could bear. I surfaced and climbed out of their baptismal font never wanting to try diving into it again. Even with a promise of finding an Excalibur in its depths.

Fast forward many years later. I've been looking at these concepts for years and only recently understood them deeply. It is a recent (as in right now) development. The reason is a convergence of my studying neurological information in an effort to understand myself and others. My brain in looking for what I once liked about Mormonism from an intellectual standpoint has put the neurological with my previous theological. And it is amazing how "natural man" Mormonism really is. And it is so simple.

These are merely things naturally occurring in human brains.

Pre-existence. We can't conceive what non-existence is like.

Forever family. We are hardwired for "Us" and "Them" designation so naturally kin preference is just as eternal as the idea of always existing.

God has a body like me. We have to have a creator like "Us" in our existence which bolsters always existing.

Sex (mating) is a Celestial concept. Sexual selection and mating naturally is eternal as well as individual male paternity. Females will eternally select males based upon a dominance hierarchy.

There are higher powers people can harness. The male dominance hierarchy is forever. It is predestined and more powerful than any other human dominance hierarchy to have previously existed or will ever exist.

The natural "man" isn't an enemy to God in Mormonism. The natural man is Mormon. The natural man is God in Mormonism.

That is the deepest thought I've currently gotten from Mormonism.

And these "deep" theological concepts and thoughts from Mormonism ultimately for me lack depth. Especially in the further light and knowledge I've gained from neurology.

42

"It was the use of sex not as a Celestial concept but as self gratification from a man selling it as a Celestial concept."

I found that not only deep, but profoundly accurate.

Thanks for sharing, EB.

Isn't it so obvious it hurts to think people accept him as a prophet? I mean a scam to network market you out of money is less obvious.

A fool and his money. They are the fool makers, which makes Nelson the prince of fools. Fool me twice, we won’t get fooled again.

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A fool and his money. They are the fool makers,
> which makes Nelson the prince of fools.

Mormonism is a viral meme that has built a vast empire in real goods and services. It is a theology of the human condition spun into eternal realms of subjugated women and godlike male potency.

It takes agrarian sexual ethics to extreme celibacy and in this is not natural but most of it is an appeal to humanly biased culturally strengthened "role playing" human realities.

It channels our desires for eternal continuance, eternal socio-sexual habits, and tribal dominance to their logical extremities. It is the agrarian sky daddy tending farms of spirits and herding physical people like cattle using our human biology to support it.

The Mormon meme changed from the one Joseph Smith created into a Protestant puritanical locking in of traditional agrarian society roles and hierarchies supported by Joe's eternal things like marriage, family sealing, kingdom building etc.

I need a sabbatical, okay. :-)

In the name and memory of the Wise Ol' Cabbie

#proud to be your friend

Live longer than me and prosper.

#proud to be your friend

I've enjoyed our exchanges. Sometimes you need to dialogue with someone like myself who doesn't know much but likes questioning and hypothesizing. It can help draw out things you didn't know you had.

I've now read this post at least 10 times.

I keep going over the fact (in my opinion) that LDS Corp is dressing up human nature, fitting it into a more socially acceptable format, and selling it as something new and full of mystery.

*Jaw drop*

What a scam. It culled (and just Joe didn't do it) all this 19th Century folksy stuff, went looking for the mysterious in Swedenborg and Masonry, and retrofitted Jesus to condone a fertilize many females male dominance hierarchy.

And the biggest irony? Lucifer speaks to Mormons in their temples telling them unless they follow this tribal human nature plus existential forever ontology they will be in his power?

What does he want them to do? Turn their backs on their own natures and not follow an "us" and "them" religion and eschew all dominance hierarchies and actually love and tolerate all humans they possibly can?

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> God has a body like me.
> Sex (mating) is a Celestial concept.

> My pre-existence was according to me pedigree
> probably the highest point in my existence. I'm
> naturally curious and questioning so my mortal
> existence was doomed. I disliked most of the time
> most of my family. That was doomed. Being bisexual
> I imagined God's body as something I would be
> sexually attracted to and finding a soul mate to
> cross the stars with going to Kolob has always
> been complicated by my natural sexual duality. And
> finally, the Phenomenal Cosmic Powers in my Itty
> Bitty Living Space (body) just didn't seem to
> materialize.


You have so many profound thoughts, Elder, I thought I would comment on this. After my exit from Mormonism, I spent quite a bit of time away from any church/spiritual/sacred readings. This was a cleansing time, for me, to let go of Mormon teachings and explore coming to my own understanding of my “itty bitty living space.”

Eventually, as you know, I was drawn back to traditional Christianity. What Mormons got so wrong was the concept of
Biblical sexuality. In the Hebrew Scriptures, adultery and active lust (e.g. David putting Uriah in a situation to get him killed) are sinful. Sexuality is also metaphorical for the blissful, intimate nature of God’s longing for God’s creation—it is that of a lover for a lover (Song of Solomon). Smith rejected the Song of Songs because he couldn’t see the symbolism of sexual union as the deep, personal longing for love that God has for God’s creation, there is no physical union here. Instead, Smith was way too much interested in his own physical gratification to see the poetic rendering of deep longing for intimacy.

Jesus picks up this theme with numerous references to a bride, groom, and feasting. Traditional interpretation is that of a lover being joined in the highest union to his beloved (all of us).

Anyhow Berry, I hope things are a little easier on the home front with your daughter’s absence. Big bro-hugs, The Boner.

Thanks for the reply! It isn't a post which would garner much attention.

BYU Boner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You have so many profound thoughts, Elder, I
> thought I would comment on this. After my exit
> from Mormonism, I spent quite a bit of time away
> from any church/spiritual/sacred readings. This
> was a cleansing time, for me, to let go of Mormon
> teachings and explore coming to my own
> understanding of my “itty bitty living
> space.”

I think this cleansing might be requisite for many. I took many years toying with the idea of another belief system if not organization. These itty bitty living spaces sometimes feel a little empty without believing they contain phenomenal cosmic connections.

> Eventually, as you know, I was drawn back to
> traditional Christianity. What Mormons got so
> wrong was the concept of
> Biblical sexuality. In the Hebrew Scriptures,
> adultery and active lust (e.g. David putting Uriah
> in a situation to get him killed) are sinful.
> Sexuality is also metaphorical for the blissful,
> intimate nature of God’s longing for God’s
> creation—it is that of a lover for a lover (Song
> of Solomon). Smith rejected the Song of Songs
> because he couldn’t see the symbolism of sexual
> union as the deep, personal longing for love that
> God has for God’s creation, there is no physical
> union here. Instead, Smith was way too much
> interested in his own physical gratification to
> see the poetic rendering of deep longing for
> intimacy.

As long as God is gentle with lots of intimacy I guess he can screw me. :)

Mormonism is a bit too focused on the phallic and the phenomenal cosmic sexual connections.

> Jesus picks up this theme with numerous references
> to a bride, groom, and feasting. Traditional
> interpretation is that of a lover being joined in
> the highest union to his beloved (all of us).

Jesus knows how to party when he isn't being a Mormon. I guess I've just always had a hard time with the bridegroom thing. It should feel right but since especially middle age I just can't get it up for Jesus. My new handle should be ED not EB.

I'm glad your boner is strong for him. Really, I am. I think that people can derive very beneficial things from religious beliefs. My problem with them is their crossover capabilities. I remember growing up Mormon hearing how simple and rational the gospel was. It took a lifetime to find how very wrong for me they were. Now with this post I see in a way they were right. Their gospel is simple. It is natural. It is tribal and it is parts of human nature being exploited by a big corporation. Doesn't make their being right their being any less wrong in exploiting human nature for self interests and organizational (meme) continued existence. They are still a dangerous mental pathogen. Even Jesus is pathogenic in my opinion. I know he is your savior and I'm working on lessoning my immune response given his infectious nature hasn't taken over my grey matter much.

> Anyhow Berry, I hope things are a little easier on
> the home front with your daughter’s absence. Big
> bro-hugs, The Boner.

Love your hugs. Thank you. The rest of my kids are being delivered to their grandparents for further distribution into a couple of colleges out West. I'm a lone man in this Missouri wilderness and then we are brood-less parents till Christmas. We won't see them until birthday for Jesus.

To be honest, my faith is in the shitter right now. I find strength and support from the wonderful folks here. And I beat you to the ED a long time ago :)

My struggles are a little better in trying to build a relationship with my wife. I want to be her best friend, and she tells me that she wants that too. We did a recent road trip and had a great time together, but then I almost started to cry when I saw the “Welcome to Utah” sign.

I hate this place! My wife has all the family member pulling on her, then there’s THE CHURCH. I know why she does what she does—tradition, upbringing, societal pressures; but, I want the pure insane love of the Song of Songs! I want my beloved to be mine!

I’m too close to retirement to seriously consider moving out of state. I talked with her about the neighborhood shunning and constant family demands. She’s torn. So, where are you God? Do you even give a fuck? How much have I prayed about this? I’m also fighting depression right now—retirement is looming—work give me satisfaction and purpose, but it’s time to let the brighter and more energetic have a chance.

Ironically, church helps me. For an hour I experience poetry, purpose, friendship, and meaning. I guess I’m a Christian by longing. My pastor tells me it’s all okay because I’m being honest with myself. And, yes, there are those times faith seems to make sense.

So, Elder, I find my solace in trying to be the best friend and colleague possible. Somehow, people in my real life are drawn to me, I just wish my wife were one of them.

Okay, enough of the pity pot! Elder, stay fuckin’ strong and keep posting. Now, go have fun with the misses and enjoy a good wank during some down time!

BYU Boner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To be honest, my faith is in the shitter right
> now. I find strength and support from the
> wonderful folks here. And I beat you to the ED a
> long time ago :)

:) Glad we both have wonderful folks here. You are one for me.

> My struggles are a little better in trying to
> build a relationship with my wife. I want to be
> her best friend, and she tells me that she wants
> that too. We did a recent road trip and had a
> great time together, but then I almost started to
> cry when I saw the “Welcome to Utah” sign.

My kids texted me that sign last week. I have to say my reaction was much the same as yours.

I think best friends is a worthy goal. I think that is where my wife and I are heading. The impasse of the church is a might barrier to overcome in establishing best friendship but I believe we are naturally inclined to pair bond. It isn't something we can control. We can only go the distance with the pair bond we have and see how long it lasts. Pair bonding and kin altruism are nice to haves in human existence but we are such social and helpful to each other creatures, they aren't required for your salvation Boner. Just because we have a proclivity in our cultures to pair bond and kin bond doesn't me we are bond to do it.

I take solace in my existence as a social creature able to help others of my kind. It is something I enjoy in any expressions.

> I hate this place! My wife has all the family
> member pulling on her, then there’s THE CHURCH.
> I know why she does what she does—tradition,
> upbringing, societal pressures; but, I want the
> pure insane love of the Song of Songs! I want my
> beloved to be mine!

She is yours just outside of the cultural and tribal framework. We are making it work so I hope you can to. I'm an oasis from the "us" of my wife's cultural, familial, and tribal framework.

> I’m too close to retirement to seriously
> consider moving out of state. I talked with her
> about the neighborhood shunning and constant
> family demands. She’s torn. So, where are you
> God? Do you even give a fuck? How much have I
> prayed about this? I’m also fighting depression
> right now—retirement is looming—work give me
> satisfaction and purpose, but it’s time to let
> the brighter and more energetic have a chance.

Maybe your religious beliefs will help you with a sense of purpose. Most of my retired friends are having a great life but then again they are mostly gay.

> Ironically, church helps me. For an hour I
> experience poetry, purpose, friendship, and
> meaning. I guess I’m a Christian by longing. My
> pastor tells me it’s all okay because I’m
> being honest with myself. And, yes, there are
> those times faith seems to make sense.

Well, no one is firm in their faith in my opinion. They could be in a religious ecstasy so intently that they can beat themselves and not feel it but they still can't live in the modern world without some doubts. Gone are the times of no knowledge to produce doubts. You would have to isolate oneself for that.

> So, Elder, I find my solace in trying to be the
> best friend and colleague possible. Somehow,
> people in my real life are drawn to me, I just
> wish my wife were one of them.

She isn't?

> Okay, enough of the pity pot! Elder, stay
> fuckin’ strong and keep posting. Now, go have
> fun with the misses and enjoy a good wank during
> some down time!

I have thanks!

"Fast forward many years later. I've been looking at these concepts for years and only recently understood them deeply. It is a recent (as in right now) development. The reason is a convergence of my studying neurological information in an effort to understand myself and others. My brain in looking for what I once liked about Mormonism from an intellectual standpoint has put the neurological with my previous theological. And it is amazing how "natural man" Mormonism really is. And it is so simple."


COMMENT: I have to disagree with the conclusion that the source for your prior dispositions to Mormon doctrines is based upon neurology (or evolution). Whatever evolutionary influences that might be at work in shaping your cognitive brain mechanisms, they most certainly are not specific to any particular beliefs, either theological or otherwise, including the ones you mention. After all, not everyone's brain is disposed to such beliefs!

Moreover, your brain is "hard-wired" in a general way to promote survival and reproductive instincts, but not with regard to the formation of specific beliefs, or belief systems, like religion. For that you need consciousness and environmental influences. The fact that you, and others, can see through errors in your beliefs through assessment of evidence, is a testament (sorry) to the ability to transcend such general environmental and neurological influences through the exercise of freewill.

In short, the fact that some people gravitate to or away from religion generally; or specific religions; or religious doctrines, represents the cognitive ability of humans to process information and make choices as part of a continuing, dynamic cognitive system.

Cool. I think that there is a neurological basis for phenomenon in human existence.

I can't deny the expressions are varied and legion. My particular (opinion) take is the Mormon variety are more bolstered to innate human neurological mechanisms like "us" and "them" wiring and sexual selection based upon a dominance hierarchy as well as multiple sexual partners wiring in us. Mormonism doesn't wire for female multiple sexual partners.

Isn’t “deep thoughts from mormonism”an oxymoron?

Yes, but Mormonism is all about fake deep thoughts so if you haven't had some deep thinking about Mormonism you could be fooled into thinking their theology had some depth.