I was never a girly girl. I enjoyed tomboy like things. When I was a girl/young woman, I did not want to fit into the submissive girl/woman role. DH and I both worked full time and I did not feel it was my role to always clean and do the dishes when i came home from work. I wanted to ride motorcycles, camp, backpack.

I was shamed by Mormon women for not fulfilling their expectatons of me. I was shunned, talked down to. I felt there was something wrong with me because I did not fit in.

Thank goodness, I lived my life on my own terms and not theirs, although I was lonely for friends for many years I did not fit the Mormon mold for women, but I also did not fit in outside the church.

I'm on the other side of the coin, a male, and have learned to sew, clean, cook, etc. It's ok but men have always been the hunter gathers. The ones who go out in the winter for food, who defend the camp. Women take care of the stove and kids.

I don't think most women enjoy chores but they are decent at it. But the gender roles have had such a long existence because men are better at certain things like engineering, building, creating, repairing. (there's no girl Mozart, very few girls in silicon valley, even though they bend over backwards to be politically correct).

But as for camping and being in the great outdoors, there are many women who enjoy that. It's apparent to me every time I'm in the mountains or at a sporting goods store. Lots of feminine merchandise.

Men are NOT "better at certain things like engineering, building, creating, repairing." They have had endless opportunites to do those things while women have not.

Women/girls are highly encouraged to go into STEM fields. Its not that they are no being given the opportunity.

Gee, I wonder where girls might be getting the idea that they have an option to stay home to be mothers and only go into STEM fields if they can't find a man? Hmmmmm. Could it be at their church?

I suspect there are plenty of women who don't want the pressure of having to support themselves and their children. They seem happy to latch on to a man for support. They use their religion or whatever reasons as justification to only serve husband and family away from the workforce. They can become dependent, trapped and unable to support themselves even if they do realize they could have pursued an external career.

I'm wondering if we paid teachers according to the important role they have, especially in early education, more men would be interested.

Why is a women ditch digger considered "diversification" if she can do the job? Surely there are ways to measure performance by numbers so each person is paid according to their job performance.

I am sorry but girls are not given the same opportunities in stem fields as boys. From a young age boys get toys that encourage that while girls get dolls and play kitchens. Look at clothing offerings; flowers vs rockets. Yes there is a push for girls in the stem but it’ll take a while to see a big difference. Even the girls that do make it don’t find the environment as hospitable as boys. They aren’t invited to social and outside activities the same way male colleagues are which makes it harder to network and advance. They aren’t listened to with the same authority. They are interrupted significantly more. There are so many studies on these issues. It generally confuses me that someone would think there is equal opportunity.

But there was

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Anna_Mozart

"However, given the views of her parents, prevalent in her society at the time, it became impossible as she grew older for her to continue her career any further. According to New Grove, 'from 1769 onwards she was no longer permitted to show her artistic talent on travels with her brother, as she had reached a marriageable age.'"

So the problem is not necessarily that "men are better", but rather societally imposed gender roles.

nonamekid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But there was
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Anna_Mozart
>
> "However, given the views of her parents,
> prevalent in her society at the time, it became
> impossible as she grew older for her to continue
> her career any further. According to New Grove,
> 'from 1769 onwards she was no longer permitted to
> show her artistic talent on travels with her
> brother, as she had reached a marriageable age.'"
>
> So the problem is not necessarily that "men are
> better", but rather societally imposed gender
> roles.

Thank you.

While not Mozarts, there are lots of excellent female song-writers these days. The Wilson sisters of Heart, Sara Hickman, Dar Williams and Mary Fahl come to mind. The last 3 are singer/songwriters. Carole King has written for a lot of groups.

Felix Mendelssohn's sister, Fanny, was another excellent composer who had to be more "feminine".

must not have seen the 60 minutes episode. There in fact is a girl Mozart and her name is Alma

Years ago, kickboxing for women was just getting started. There was a conference talk denouncing the exercise for women because they were to stay feminine or something like that. Does anyone know who gave the talk? I want to say it was Nelson, but maybe it was Oaks?

I looked it up, because I remember a talk stating basically that.

First one given by Margaret D. Nadauld, "The Joy of Womanhood"https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2000/10/the-joy-of-womanhood?lang=eng

Also, I found Elder D. Todd Christofferson "The Moral Force of Women". https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/the-moral-force-of-women?lang=eng

Margaret said it first, but everyone seems to remember Christofferson's talk more,where he quotes the former.

"The world has enough women who are tough; we need women who are tender. There are enough women who are coarse; we need women who are kind. There are enough women who are rude; we need women who are refined. We have enough women of fame and fortune; we need more women of faith. We have enough greed; we need more goodness. We have enough vanity; we need more virtue. We have enough popularity; we need more purity."


It stuck in my mind because I specifically remember the line that they don't need women to be tough. Then church later features a tough lady in "meet the mormons" to tout how diverse they are. "The Fighter", Carolina Muñoz Marin, an MMA fighter from Costa Rica who had a chance to go pro international, but she and her husband decided it would separate their family too much.[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meet_the_Mormons

It rubbed me the wrong way because we are given a message in the church to be so submissive. yet, to the world they give a message like they are so accepting.

I noticed the tendency for Mormons to push girls to act girly even as a kid. Girls didn't get to go on backpacking trips, their camping trips were always shorter and less frequent than the boys, and during the women's pull on trek, guys would comment about how hard the girls struggled even though they made it up a hill on their own. I wasn't one of those guys who made those comments for a few reasons:

1. my mother, despite forcing herself to try and act like a "proper" Mormon woman, grew up in Wyoming and it showed. She raised us more than my dad did, she could move furniture without him, and had more education than him.

2. I grew up in Southeast Idaho. Most of the never-mo girls I went to school with hiked, fished, and hunted more than I ever did. The girls basketball team in high school were tougher than most of the losers who make "well, men were the hunter gatherers while women looked after the camp" type comments (I'm not going to name names).

3. In junior high I had a crush on a never-mo farm girl. She raised pigs, hunted deer, and played the viola. I didn't ask her on a date due to her being out of my league and still regret not even having the guts to try.

And, to be honest, I find it attractive for a woman to be strong enough to live life on her terms.

So if we remove all barriers to women in sewer repair, they will flock to it, right?

Are people really saying that generally speaking, there is no difference between women and men? Millions of years of childbearing doesn't require any difference?

Must everything be binary?

Few human characteristics are, including gender and gender identity.

So Well said. Think of napoleon he wore heels. men owned the knitting guilds in parts of europe once. Why are some clothes or embellishments or experiences 'for' one physical phenotype/ it appears things assigned by gender were assigned to different genders at different centuries. its so confusing. how can it be culturally right or wrong to care about, to like, knitting or heels or waffle stomper wesco boots or one kind of machine like a sewing machine or a vehicle. ownership doesn't seem to work real well on this. Demanding only one partner gets face cream or sun screen or hair styling appointments is outrageous unfairness.

Right, we talk about gender equity in fields like STEM, but no one is pushing for more female miners or ditch diggers.

Also no one seems to care that women dominate early education. There certainly isn't gender parity there.

I don't buy the idea that women aren't being given a chance. Its just an axiom everyone seems to parrot.

Its not the 1970's anymore. A female hire often has an advantage over a man in several fields, because they want desperately to diversify their workforce.

kilgravmaga Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...but no one is pushing for more female miners
> or ditch diggers.


No one is pushing for more male miners or ditch diggers either.

The point is, we look at a lack of females in STEM and wonder how to fix it. We don't look at the glut of females in Nursing, education, etc. and push to get more men there.

There also isn't a push to get women into a lot of industrial hard labor positions. No big push for women carpenters, plumbers, miners, slaughter-house workers, etc.

We in HR and management are required to look into the numbers and try to switch things up so that they reflect more of the population in a given geographical area. This often times pushes qualified workers out so that the quarterly and yearly diversification goals can be met.

but, I apologize.

That gets off the point, which is that the LDS church pushes gender roles HARD! Its bull.

Everyone should do as they like as far as career, family, education, etc.

kilgravmaga Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
That was off the point, and you made good on the point, so thank you. But I'm going to address your post anyway.

> The point is, we look at a lack of females in STEM
> and wonder how to fix it.

Who's "we?" I've been taking action for years. And I know how to "fix" it. For over 30 years, I've hired capable women for jobs in STEM, when they were qualified and talented. And I've gotten no end of crap from fellow male employees, who don't want women "intruding" on their "territory." One of the leads on a recent Pixar movie was a woman that I hired at Lucasfilm as an entry-level software engineer about 25 years ago -- I saw great potential in her, nobody else in the industry would even give her a job. Women that I've hired in STEM fields over the years -- usually their first job in the industry -- now run multi-million $ companies, manage and lead huge projects, and make significant industry contributions. And I got crap for hiring every single one of them at the time.

So I don't know about you, but I know how to "fix it:" when you're hiring, hire enthusiastic, capable human beings -- no matter what gender or race they are. And help remove the biases all the way back to elementary school, where teachers/counselors still often discourage females from going into male-dominated professions.

> We in HR and management are required to look into
> the numbers and try to switch things up so that
> they reflect more of the population in a given
> geographical area.

Once again, who's "we?" Nobody I know in HR or management has such "requirements." And I've worked for some of the biggest companies in the country. At my current company (where I'm an officer), we have no such requirement. But then again, it's a company that has had a long track record of no gender/race bias in hiring, and one that already has many capable women in positions of high leadership. Maybe yours hasn't done so well, and so needs a kick in the behind to get started, because of a history of idiotic bias? Like many companies in the US?

I'm a tomboy too. I don't think I was ever shamed for not being girly. I just felt like everyone's likes were met accept for mine.

Activities centered around arts and crafts, sewing, cooking, making a scrapbook. This was before the internet. I'm a history buff, interested in animals. Love the outdoors. Those activities won't help you get a man. Well I'm 43 and never had a boyfriend. So you see where this is going. When I was a kid I felt so alienated and different I knew I had to belong in a mental hospital.

And I haven't changed this respected.

My sisters are girly girls. My daughter is a girly girl. My niece and I are not. She has a daughter who is not.

I was raised by a farmer and I worked hard on the farm. I didn't wear makeup for a long time and now I'm back to not wearing it. I couldn't understand those girls who spent hours getting ready and I can get ready in 10 minutes. I like to dress up for things like I'm going to my boyfriend's son's wedding in September and I'm having fun finding really nice dresses to wear and I'll wear makeup for that.

I didn't date much until i started dating nonmormons. My nonmormon boyfriend is the first guy who ever made me feel like I was "normal" back when I dated him when I was 20.

It wasn't just not being a girly girl that made me not fit in in mormonism, it was SO MANY OTHER THINGS. I can't pinpoint them all.

I actually do crochet and I make tied quilts. I'm not into canning and gardening. I'm not into crafting or scrapbooking, although I've done it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2018 01:14AM by cl2.

I'm trying to remember if there was a time I was gaga over girly girls. If so, my preferences changed somewhere along the line and I'm drawn to less girly women. Smart, witty, broad range of interests, independent, low-maintenance... Too bad they're not drawn to me.

TBM Tomboy, here, too! (Raising my hand)

I wouldn't have had it any other way. I had more fun than the other TBM girls. I got to go camping and learn all the sports, with my father and brothers. I would rather work in the yard and prune trees than help my mother in the kitchen, and help hostess her parties, but I ended up doing both. I could be a pal to the outdoor boys, and keep up with them skiing and mountain climbing, then get dressed up for a dance that night. My relationships with men were multi-faceted, ran deep, and lasted for many, many years.

It's true that TBM girls are encouraged to sew and cook and be "domestic goddesses". Such girls and women don't understand that a female can be best friends with a male, without having sex be the most important ingredient. The Mormon girls made up gossip that I was popular with the boys because I was fast and loose--but that was not the case--I was the opposite--very pure. The men liked me because I treated them like human beings (not a meal ticket, not a way of getting to the celestial kingdom, not a status mate), and enjoyed them for who they were. Mormon women objectify the men just as much as the men objectify the women.

Evergreen, weren't you glad you had as much fun as the boys did? Did you really WANT to spend your time gossiping and primping, instead of having the adventures you had?

Mormon shunning always made me feel bad, until the final shunning, when I left the cult. Honestly, I wouldn't want people like that in my life at all. Girls would tell me they were jealous of me, all the time.

Be glad! Had I been raised to be dependent and protected, I could not have withstood the adversities I had to face in life. In face, I would not have survived, at all. My TBM husband completely abandoned me and my children, and I was able to step up and be both mother and father, homemaker and bread-winner. I was able to conquer the men who tried to seduce me into dating them, con me into giving them money, tried to abuse my children. The men who wanted to help me were all married (and not Mormons), and I didn't want to interfere in that. The Mormon men wanted to live in my house and have me feed them, and that was a privilege only for my own children.

Females have to be even stronger than males--especially in the Mormon cult--because no one knows what life might throw at them.

I was happiest when I was single, even with the overload of work and responsibility. I would not trade my life for that standardized Mormon DW life. (Though I would not have wanted the abuse.)

You don't REALLY want to fit into that Mormon mold, do you? The average woman has 2-3 real friends. Concentrate on those, and on your family relationships. Who needs a bunch of competetive, jealous gossips?

I'm happy for you!

+1

Loved your post. In my 30s I was mountain and road biking, skiing, hiking with nomo friends and was having the time of my life. I'm almost 60 and am backpacking and going on adventure trips with friends.
So glad I hated going to church and stopped going years ago

Even though I liked many traditional female pursuits, such as ballet, art, etc., as a girl I knew I wasn't a "girly girl" and I felt somewhat lacking because of it.

But as a teacher looking around an average classroom, I would say that the girly-girls are few and far between. Most girls are mixed to one degree or another. Most guys as well. My brother was an engineer and a builder, and he enjoys wood working. But he also likes gardening, cooking, art, and touring museums.

It's satisfying to know that girls have more options now than in earlier times.

There's room in this church for EVERYONE . . . as long as they
act exactly like us.

Funny!!!!!

Young women's was the worst. I hated doing crafts. Who the heck does crafts when camping?! I remember one activity night we were having "homemaking" competitions and the boys were having some fun activity I would have rather done, which was the case 95% of the time. I don't wear makeup, I hate cooking, hate crafts. I made an awful lds girl. I still don't fit in with most womens

Men find it sexy in a woman who can outdo them. My convert friend who was in the military shared that insight with me when she was in. Men like interesting women that are empowered.

I always found tomboys sexier and overall more appealing than girly girls. I felt that way even when I was a TBM, but I guess I never really fit in with Mormons.

When I finally learned to live alone and like, I realized that I could be quite the tom girl.

I think that is "Tammy" girl!

I can remember the young women planning a camping trip and once they found out it would just be the girls everyone seemed to lose interest. With many of the young women it wasnt the camping that they necessarily wanted to do, it was the camping and hiking with the boys that was more appealing. Many of the young girls wanted to do boy stuff because it involved doing it with the boys.

Saw this on The Onion....
https://www.theonion.com/young-girls-creeped-out-by-older-scientists-constantly-1828190853

That was funny :)