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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: August 03, 2018 03:08PM

I wanted to share this because it helped me (I think.) The one thing I think I know about differences between boys and girls based on information I've gathered is we are a mix of female brains and male brains.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/11/brains-men-and-women-aren-t-really-different-study-finds

I've learned that some statistically relative sizes of subsystems in the brain depending upon initial conditions can influence male brains to be more female-like and vis versa. I may be way off but I believe there are few differences and they aren't as significant as we would (culturally reinforced) like to believe.

In expression females tend to be less focused on dominance hierarchies than males. But the maths.

This is a highlight of what I think is going on.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2010/07-08/gender-gap.aspx

And a great quote from it.

"He believes all the focus on gender distracts from the more serious problem that U.S. math achievement is abysmal compared with that of other countries."

I believe a focus on gender doesn't help us as a species but I might be high in an ivory tower with in a minority. The movie "Idiocracy" might be more apropos to humans progress than "The Invention of Lying."

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 03, 2018 03:23PM

"He believes all the focus on gender distracts from the more serious problem that U.S. math achievement is abysmal compared with that of other countries."

Yes. And both problems merge in the person of Maryam Mirzakhani, who grew up in a country (Iran) that imposes immense burdens on women but takes mathematics seriously. She studied at Sharif University, the Iranian powerhouse, then was lured away to Harvard, Princeton and Stanford. That's what happens when society doesn't differentiate between men and women in academic affairs.

Besides teaching, Mirzakhani was a wife, mother, and baker of cookies. She also won the Fields Medal.

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Posted by: annonammon ( )
Date: August 03, 2018 05:51PM

Thus eliminating the need to recruit more females into STEM fields as there would be no point, since there's no difference whatsoever between male and female brains.

Might as well hire the sex that is least likely to get pregnant, you'll get the same exact results (brains are the same) yet more productivity (less long-term time away from work).

Got it!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 03, 2018 06:27PM

"There's no difference whatsoever between male and female brains."

Who said that?

"Thus eliminating the need to recruit more females into STEM fields."

Who said that?

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: August 03, 2018 06:31PM

annonammon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Might as well hire the sex that is least likely to
> get pregnant, you'll get the same exact results
> (brains are the same) yet more productivity (less
> long-term time away from work).

Regardless of ability to carry a child, people have differing abilities. To discriminate a full 50 percent of them because of their abilities seems rather stupid to me.

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Posted by: ziller ( )
Date: August 03, 2018 08:35PM

just flop them on they back and look between they legs OPie ~


thats how to tell the difference OPie ~

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: August 03, 2018 11:02PM

The cool thing about science is that you can find a study to show pretty much anything you want.

Science Magazine from from 2015 cited by OP says there is no real difference between men and women's brains.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/11/brains-men-and-women-aren-t-really-different-study-finds


Science Magazine from 2017 says there are significant differences between men and women's brains.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/04/study-finds-some-significant-differences-brains-men-and-women

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 03, 2018 11:16PM

I just read the two articles. The material in them is very similar; it is the headlines that differ. So blame the editors.

In the latter article, which promises the "brains are different" viewpoint, the conclusion is that "both sexes’ brains are far more similar than they are different."

The other important conclusion is that there is no truly "male" brain or "female" brain. There are slight differences that line up with gender, but those characteristics vary, as Judic West would predict, pretty much as one would expect from a normal distribution on the divine Bell Curve.

Which means that human cognitive abilities for both genders span the map. Both studies thus offer indirect support for the notion that differences in performance on intellectual tasks and emotional IQ probably owe more to nurture than to nature.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2018 11:24PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: jay ( )
Date: August 04, 2018 01:42AM

<<The cool thing about science is that you can find a study to show pretty much anything you want.>>


There’s a study out that says you can use a human foot as a cell phone.

Science!? Go figure.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2018 01:44AM by jay.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 05, 2018 08:51PM

I would be surprised if you could provide a link to that study.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: August 04, 2018 12:15AM

Prior to the mid-1960s, there were essentially no female lawyers in the US. That was taken as proof that they had neither the interest nor aptitude for law.

Ditto news reporters and especially anchors. Ditto airline pilots. Ditto doctors. Ditto astronauts.

Now women are a majority of law students and are well represented in the other fields. What changed? Mostly, hormonal contraceptives which gave them genuine control over their own fertility. If they can't control their fertility, they cant control their lives. It used to be very difficult. It is still a somewhat fraught endeavor, but it's a hell of a lot better than it used to be.

At the university I was recently at, computer programming courses were about 10 to 15% female. Engineering was about 20%. About 30% of math majors were women. Not sure why the computer fields did so poorly among women. Back in the 1970s when I got into the field, about 40% of the majors were women. In the aughts, these women were returning to colleges as recruiters/managers, and wondered where all the women were?

Like law school, I think the low numbers in techie fields is a temporary and largely cultural anomaly, that will change significantly in coming decades. We shall see.

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Posted by: HWint ( )
Date: August 06, 2018 10:04PM

now, women are the majority of college grads.

when men were the majority, it's bad because it was patriarchal oppression and a sign of deep sexism in the culture.

when women are the majority, it's good because reasons.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 06, 2018 10:40PM

There are two different problems here.

One is the disadvantages society has historically imposed, and still imposes, on women. Those remain substantial and damaging to everyone.

The other is changes in the educational system, evident in primary and secondary school in particular but also college, that may well disadvantage boys and manifest in relatively poorer performances by them. These too harm everyone, male or female.

Many of us are deeply concerned about both of these problems.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: August 04, 2018 12:55AM

When I was working at Litton Industries (in the last couple of years of my teens), I assembled circuit boards which went into inertial guidance systems. After we (all females) assembled these boards, the completed boards went to "technicians" (all males) who tested them to make sure that our solder joints were properly soldered, that the resistors, capacitors, and transistors were all in their proper places, were facing in the correct directions, and linked in the proper ways to the circuitry, and that the boards would "do" what they were supposed to do when they were installed in the inertial guidance systems they were intended for. I got to know several of the technicians, began asking questions about THEIR jobs, and I learned that what they were doing, while advanced from what I was doing, was also not THAT "advanced." It all seemed pretty straightforward to me.

I went to my foreman and said I wanted to be a technician, to which the answer was: it was not a job for "girls." At Litton, only males could be technicians.

I lobbied, and finally--after a LONG time, and with great reluctance--I was told that they would give me the text used in technician school (it was a company school, just as the assembler course I had taken had been), and if I could pass the final exam with a passing grade, I would be allowed to become Litton's first female ("girl") technician.

I studied the text (it wasn't any more difficult than what I had learned when I went to assembler school--just somewhat different), told them I was ready to take the final exam, was given the exam--and I passed with 100% on the written portion, and I forget my practical test score, but it was in the 90s...at which point I was told that, although they could not figure out how I had done it, I obviously must have cheated on the test(s), because NO "girl" could have learned to be a technician from studying the technician course text.

The male executive who made the final decision (despite my test scores, the decision involved how NOT to promote me to technician) was Tom Loy, the executive in charge--and a name I will remember until the moment I die.

A few years later, when I was working at Capitol Records as a purchasing clerk (and writing freelance articles for publication, basically helping out producers to promote their harder-to-promote, but somehow financially interesting, artists), I saw what I thought was an easy subject to sell to an editor, and asked one of the producers I worked most closely with (on my freelance articles) if there had ever been a female producer at Capitol, and was told that there would NEVER be a female producer at Capitol--not ever!! That prediction didn't turn out to be accurate (a couple of years later there was a husband-and-wife producing team who did quite well for themselves, and she got producing co-credit), but the answer I received was revealing. So far as this particular (quite successful: Beach Boys, etc.) producer was concerned, there would NEVER be a female producer of pop music at Capitol Records.

I have spent most of my late-adolescent and adult life looking for side entrances into whatever-it-was I wanted to accomplish, because the "front" door was ALWAYS closed to me because of my gender.

This was also largely true of the female students I went through school with--in my academic classes, 100% of which were markedly above average. Girls who wanted to go into science or medicine (let alone MATHEMATICS!) were ALWAYS counseled to become school teachers or nurses--regardless of which schools they went to, or what degrees they eventually earned. In reality, most of them eventually became teachers and real estate agents (growing up in the Valley, real estate at that time was omnipresent--something everyone breathed in from moment-to-moment). The point is: these were the "girls" who were getting very high-90s percentiles on the Iowa Tests, and who were in gifted classes for all academic subjects (after taking either the standard written ("mass"), or the individual one-on-one-with- a-credentialed-school psychologist, IQ tests).

I know things are different now, but not so long ago, what is true today is not the way it was, and just as female victims of rape should not be considered guilty of the "crime" of getting raped, neither should females who grew up in American society as it actually was when they were growing up be considered "guilty" of not becoming what they COULD have become (mathematicians/scientists/engineers/doctors) had they lived in a more egalitarian culture, because their gender made them ineligible for entrance as deemed by whoever were the male gate keepers who existed during that period in our national history.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2018 01:15AM by Tevai.

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Posted by: jay ( )
Date: August 04, 2018 01:53AM

It’s tragic to think of what people don’t get to experience in this life. Or what they have to experience.

The opportunities for improvement are boundless.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: August 04, 2018 12:08PM

Interesting experiences.

I had a BIL who worked at Litton and an uncle working at Capitol Records about the same time when I was a teenager. I have no doubt either one of them would have acted that way (not that I think either of them were in any kind of administrative decision-making position).

Times are slowly changing. I had to work much harder and outperform my male peers by miles to get a some promotions. I have seen a male who was a lower performer get a promotion (he has a family!) over a highly motivated and qualified female (she's getting married!). Thanks to women pushing for things to change, it's not as bad as it was.

Did anyone happen to watch the TV show The Orville last night? It was the first time I have watched it. It's pretty stupid but the story line about genders was chilling. No matter what women do to prove themselves they are up against customs.

As for math, I'm not sure how much of this is still subtle conditioning or if any brain differences can be isolated as the only variable.

The OP summed it up though, IMO. The amount of scientific illiteracy is alarming and increasing at a rapid rate. Idiocracy seems more relevant than ever.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: August 05, 2018 07:24PM

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I had a BIL who worked at Litton and an uncle
> working at Capitol Records about the same time
> when I was a teenager. I have no doubt either one
> of them would have acted that way (not that I
> think either of them were in any kind of
> administrative decision-making position).

I agree--this kind of conditioning went so deep within American culture that to question the bias was (for the most part) unthinkable--after all, "everyone" "knew" the [accepted] "facts."

> Times are slowly changing. I had to work much
> harder and outperform my male peers by miles to
> get a some promotions. I have seen a male who was
> a lower performer get a promotion (he has a
> family!) over a highly motivated and qualified
> female (she's getting married!). Thanks to women
> pushing for things to change, it's not as bad as
> it was.

I am sorry for how this cultural conditioning affected you in your life, dagny. Even though it still happens from time to time, it is nice, as a society, to be on the "other side" now.

> As for math, I'm not sure how much of this is
> still subtle conditioning or if any brain
> differences can be isolated as the only variable.

The problem with believing that male and female brains are constructed differently when it comes to mathematical and scientific processing is that this assumption is refuted every single day by females from Asian bloodlines and Asian cultures (Japanese, Chinese, sub-continent Indian, and Korean in particular). If there is, indeed, a male/female difference in math and science abilities, then it is very heavily dependent on the math/science-deficient females coming from non-Asian bloodlines and non-Asian cultures.

As the child of a father who interpreted any success of mine in math/science/engineering areas or interests as a personally targeted insult to HIM, I am acutely aware of the power of cultural conditioning on this issue. When my father died, he still had not forgiven me for (and was still taking about) me deeply shaming him in the single area of life he felt himself a success in--after all (in his opinion), if I did well in ANYTHING (even a hobby project) connected to math/science/engineering, this indicated I was intentionally demeaning him.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2018 07:30PM by Tevai.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: August 04, 2018 12:56PM

Tevai, I saw a lot of similar behavior in my younger days as well. I would say it was about the mid-80s when I saw things starting to change for the better for women in the work force.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: August 05, 2018 07:33PM

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tevai, I saw a lot of similar behavior in my
> younger days as well. I would say it was about the
> mid-80s when I saw things starting to change for
> the better for women in the work force.

I agree with you that it was in the mid-80s when it started to become obvious that our American culture was, in reality, on the other side of the curve on this.

Good catch, summer!

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Posted by: Evergreennotloggedin ( )
Date: August 05, 2018 06:31PM

I remember one of my idiot male bosses in the mid 90's (he was in his late 40s at the time) was railing against Title 9 telling me that schools now had to waste money promoting sports for girls in junior and high school, taking money away from the boys. History shows girls are not interested in sports.

I said history only showed that girls were discouraged, and, in many cases, prevented from participating in sports due to lack of funding and a program. Once Title 9 has been in place long enough for girls to be encouraged and funded for sports, same as boys, girls will participate. There has never been a reason not to fund girls sports same as boys sports. The percentage of boys becoming professional was too miniscule to support the boss' argument that boys sports needed the funding more that girls sports. What an A$$hat

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Posted by: Evergreennotloggedin ( )
Date: August 05, 2018 07:47PM

TSCC knows direct,not subtle, conditioning for females is needed to force them to submit to their form of patriarchy. They fund fun activities for boys to teach capability and leadership skills. They teach and strongly encourage/force girls to submit to men, to learn homemaking skills, to shun any activity that would teach them independence. Any girl/woman who dares to not conform is shunned.

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Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: August 04, 2018 12:40PM

Instead of worrying about gender differences or any other grouping, how about just treating people as individuals? None of us want to be pigeonholed or have sweeping generalizations made about us, so let's not do it to others.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: August 05, 2018 07:17PM

How many genders are there ?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: August 05, 2018 08:47PM

Not that most Nephites care, but Lamanites often have the same sort of "you're not up to snuff" accusations thrown at them. Or at least they did when I was a young bright, eager corporate ladder climber.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 05, 2018 08:54PM

Well, that's an unfashionable statement.

Don't you know that the Nephites have been oppressed for several decades now? Especially the Nephite priestly class.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: August 06, 2018 11:21AM

LOL!

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: August 06, 2018 03:10PM

Assuming that female football players had the requisite, professional level, physical skills, plus the interest, in becoming NFL players...why not?

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: August 06, 2018 04:20PM

I don't know. There are many women out there with professional level, physical skills, plus the interest. google it.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: August 06, 2018 04:21PM

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...There are many women out there with
> professional level, physical skills, plus the
> interest.


I did not know this. ;)

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Posted by: HWint ( )
Date: August 06, 2018 10:02PM

>I believe there are few differences and they aren't as significant as we would (culturally reinforced) like to believe.

children at one (1) day old have observable differences in brain structure and behavior, depending on their sex. see Why Gender Matters, by Leonard Sax, MD.

The Science Mag article seems to make a pretty basic error (the ecological fallacy).

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: August 06, 2018 10:48PM

HWint Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >I believe there are few differences and they
> aren't as significant as we would (culturally
> reinforced) like to believe.
>
> children at one (1) day old have observable
> differences in brain structure and behavior,
> depending on their sex. see Why Gender Matters, by
> Leonard Sax, MD.
>
> The Science Mag article seems to make a pretty
> basic error (the ecological fallacy).


I looked up Leonard Sax and, according to what I read, he has a stellar educational record--and still, I disagree with his conclusions. (There was a new edition of his book issued, where he corrects several of the main criticisms of his original work.)

The truck-or-doll choice of a newborn or toddler is of no value that I can see, since it is totally based on cultural expectations (and newborns do not yet know virtually anything about the culture they have been born into).

In other words: if the infant/toddler were born into a tribal society in Africa or Australia or Papua New Guinea, neither item would "mean" anything to those children.

(It is possible to argue that, in OUR society, since the mother knows the difference, that her intellectual understanding might be passed through her blood into the baby, but I doubt this is what is in play here, and I think most people would doubt it, too.)

Part of my skepticism is my memories (all of which are bad) of when I was given dolls and, in one case, a miniature dollhouse that my parents had spent MONTHS constructing as a Christmas gift for me--and which I had not slightest idea of what to do with other than to observe how it was constructed.

I literally did not know what I was supposed to do with dolls (or dollhouses), and I could not convince anyone (for several years) that what I REALLY wanted was books (most of all) and things to write with. I hurt my parents, and others among my relatives, badly because I had no interest in (or knowledge of) what I was expected to DO with the dolls (etc.) they gave me. (Meanwhile, they would NOT give me books...so initially, I taught myself to read by using the comics in the daily newspaper, and what I most remember is the simple and repetitive dialogue of "Dick Tracy.")

Even if a culturally-"Western European" girl child DOES prefer a doll to a truck, this does not answer why females from Asian countries are equal to males from those countries in math and the sciences. If a Japanese girl, for example, DOES like a Japanese doll instead of a Japanese truck, why does this preference predict NOTHING about her [by our standards: definitely way-above-average] ability to comprehend mathematics and [again: by our standards] "advanced" scientific principles?

From the critiques of his work, even Leonard Sax discovered that he had at least parts of his argument wrong--and I think his major position is, at best, incomplete in the sense that he is (evidently) positing his argument as if North American cultural norms regarding gender differences is applicable to the other, non-North American and non-Western European by descent, residents of our planet.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 06, 2018 10:53PM

Leonard Sax is not as credible as the studies referenced above. He publishes popular stuff, not serious neuroscientific research. The Science articles, by contrast, are peer-reviewed, serious work by people with much better training than an MD with an interest in psychology.

As for "the ecological fallacy," how is that even possible? If the studies are based on measuring and mapping physical characteristics of individuals--as they are--and then reaching conclusions about the genders on the basis of those measurements, how could the researchers be guilty of taking popular assumptions about boys and girls and applying them to individuals? Their research is going in precisely the opposite direction.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: August 07, 2018 02:56PM

HWint Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> children at one (1) day old have observable
> differences in brain structure and behavior,
> depending on their sex. see Why Gender Matters, by
> Leonard Sax, MD.

If you read the article you would see how this isn't a contention. People have varying degrees of male and female weighed brain areas of development.

Like almost everything in life, it isn't black and white. The classifications of "male brain" and "female brain" are statistical.

Reduction to the absurdly simple seems to be what our human culture(s) tend to like to do.

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