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Posted by: Ex-CultMember ( )
Date: August 06, 2018 10:23PM

Does anyone know whatever happened to this guy and what became of his research?

http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/conference2017.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf3MluItWQE&feature=youtu.be

I may just have a bad memory but wasn't The Lucy Code supposed to be a book but I don't see it anywhere online.

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Posted by: Felix ( )
Date: August 07, 2018 01:44AM

I wasn't aware that he (D. Pawl Trebas) has written a book on the research he did. I would buy it if he had. I would like to check out all his reference materials and take a closer look at his findings.

I would also like him to visit our discussion so we could ask questions about some of the things in his video. I was curious as to how he was able to research thousands of books. I assume he has some method of digitizing those books and doing quick searches of certain topics and key words and phrases.

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Posted by: presleynfactsrock ( )
Date: August 07, 2018 01:51AM

My information was that D. Pawl Trebas' book was a work in progress so maybe it not yet finished. Hope so as I would also like to check out some of his interesting and novel findings (such as the Smith boys making money by engaging in the nighttime activity of grave robbing).

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Posted by: anono this week ( )
Date: August 07, 2018 06:49AM

I just finished watching the whole segment on youtube, and it was very good. The biggest takeaway I got was the early Smith occupations. He theorizes that the Smith boys earned their living secretly as grave robbers employed by Dartmouth College. They needed bodies for their medical students. And gold digging was just a cover story.

Michael Quinn on the other hand put forth the idea that they were digging up bodies to call back the dead through over the top magical rituals and to practice sorcery, for no important reason. I find that hard to believe but he has certain evidence for the worship of the occult, such as a picture of the Jupiter talisman Joe use to wear.

The Lucy code also argues the idea that the writers of the BOM were Lucy Mack, Hyrum, Old Joe Sr. Who were the brains and Young Joe Jr was the charmer. The face to sell the book. Interesting idea????

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: August 07, 2018 03:37PM

In her book. "A history of Joseph Smith by his Mother." She records 5 visions I believe of Joseph Smith Senior. Including the Iron rod and tree of life. These visions were from before the book of mormon was wriiten.

She also states the Joseph Jr. would tell his family stories of the native Americans including their manner of dress, building, warfare, agriculture and religion.

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Posted by: You Too? ( )
Date: August 07, 2018 12:28PM

I still hang in there with Emma writing it.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: August 07, 2018 09:49PM

I like it!! Now help me finish this refrain:

"Behind every false prophet stands a woman who ..."

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Posted by: You Too? ( )
Date: August 08, 2018 12:58PM

is the first to put pen to paper.

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Posted by: kathleen ( )
Date: August 07, 2018 10:21PM

But, what about the notion that Cowdery and Rigdon hatched up the BOM. I thought that had been determined by reputable forensic document examiners (can't remember their names, but I think that one has been a poster here).

So now, let's talk about the mummy. Does it make one wonder where that damn mummy really came from? Hmmmmmm?

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: August 07, 2018 11:25PM

Craig Criddle and others have been behind the research on who actually authored the BOM... They've used forensic tools whose scientific merit has been established. Craig has posted here in the past.

As for the mummy, it was part of a "traveling show"* that was orchestrated by a man named Chandler; JS's followers arranged to purchase the mummy along with some papyrus that Joseph Smith declared "was written by his own hand [Abraham's] upon papyrus.

This is the definitive book on the subject; its author, Charles M. Larson, was fired from a public teaching job in Utah County for writing it (working from memory, but I'll Google his name; got it). As I recall, he later won a court decision in his favor.**

https://www.amazon.com/His-Own-Hand-Upon-Papyrus/dp/0962096326

*Recall that this was the first half of the 19th Century, and "Egypt was a hot topic" (in part because of its "biblical" connections). Mummies, papyrii, and other artifacts were often part of such traveling shows ("Mummy dust" was often promoted as a folk remedy).

**Somebody want to elaborate on this? I'm having a senior moment...

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Posted by: You Too? ( )
Date: August 08, 2018 12:42PM

They didn't include Emma in their sample.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: August 08, 2018 11:19PM

I shouldn't bother with drive-by anonymous posters, but this one will serve as a useful platform for linking Craig's presentations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utDU45lm210

Emma writing the BOM? If you'd looked at Craig's finding, you wouldn't have bothered with that bit of speculation which you've used to obfuscate rather than engage in honest research.

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Posted by: You Too? ( )
Date: August 09, 2018 01:40PM

Doesn't say anything about Emma, the first person to put pen to paper in the creation of the BofM manuscript.


You Too?
Hitting and running anonymously.

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Posted by: kathleen ( )
Date: August 12, 2018 12:51PM

Thanks, Cabbie. :)

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Posted by: siobhan ( )
Date: August 15, 2018 09:25AM

Where's the mummy now?

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Posted by: presleynfactsrock ( )
Date: August 08, 2018 02:17PM

Who knows if we'll ever know for certain "the" origin of the Book of Mormon, that boring, boring book, but it sure is fun to play the detective in the meantime.

D. Pawl Trebas in The Lucy Code brought up information about Hyrum's education at Dartmouth that I found intriguing; Hyrun had excellent schooling and for longer than I realized. And, Joseph himself had more schooling than I realized. Also, the parents of the Smith clan were no dummies either, so maybe the whole bunch, meaning the Smith family members, and Sydney Rigdon, and Oliver Cowdery put their scheming heads together and came up with this hoax and VERY BORING BOOK. (of course, the more people in on it, the harder to keep the secret).

I agree that Joseph Smith, Jr. was the pretty-narcisstic boy who seemed to be nominated by the clan to be the one to talk to the angels and get the visions. Was he lucky or unlucky in this calling? I personally think he ate up the attention and spotlight....after all, it brought in the adoration of the young, beautiful ladies. And, don't forget the access to the moolah, money that people were all to willing to donate to establish the "truest church on earth". And, no receipt necessary!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2018 02:20PM by presleynfactsrock.

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Posted by: You Too? ( )
Date: August 09, 2018 01:32PM

And Emma had been to boarding school.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: August 09, 2018 02:23PM

He didn't say anything about Emma...

>>And Emma had been to boarding school...

JMO, but it's a little early to be PUI, isn't it?

It's either that or you need to bring a three-figure I.Q. to your next posting...

Or perhaps you're still suffering from "Mormonism."

ISM = Incredibly Short Memory

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Posted by: You Too? ( )
Date: August 11, 2018 11:55AM

That Emma went to boarding school is in Newell and Avery.

2FFU.

EOD, HTH.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: August 11, 2018 12:21PM

Emma could read and write...

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Posted by: You Too? ( )
Date: August 11, 2018 12:32PM

Let's demean women.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: August 15, 2018 12:59PM

I wasn't demeaning women; I was demeaning your tripe...

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: August 11, 2018 12:56PM

You Too? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That Emma went to boarding school is in Newell and
> Avery.
>
> 2FFU.
>
> EOD, HTH.

Would someone help me out here, please?

I do not know what FFU, EOD, and HTH mean in this post.

Translations would be very muchly appreciated.

Thank you!

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: August 11, 2018 01:32PM

I knew who Valene Tippets Avery was (hmmm, attended BYU), and Linda Newell (still alive). Here are the updates...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valeen_Tippetts_Avery

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linda_King_Newell

Their genealogy is included in these articles.

EOD = End of Discussion

HTH = Hope That Helps

I think 2FFU is "Too F***ing Funny," but I'm not sure...

/yoda voice on

>>Passive-aggressive this one is

And an analysis of the lengthy piece below leads me to concluce it's a "masterful piece of obfuscation" (plus that straw man tactic accusing me of "attacking women)."

Seriously, I've got plenty on Emma if I had wanted denigrate her. I simply said Criddle's work pointed elsewhere.

See also, "Gish Gallop."

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: August 12, 2018 11:05AM

Thank you, SLC!

:)

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: August 12, 2018 03:12PM

Eric and CZ always have my contact info, and having met both in person, I know they don't have any doubt whose side I'm on...

Right now I'm "struggling" with D.P. Trebas' presentation; I've misplaced my copy of Brodie, and I want to use it to subject this to some serious fact checking. Well, my friend Tony Weller can always use an extra sale, and I'm sure he has a used copy cheap. Ken Sanders is also a possibility...

(okay, sorry; I slipped into a bit of name-dropping again. I can also check my folks tonight)

I note that Trebas apparently doesn't have even an undergrad degree,* and that--coupled with his LDS "indoctrination"--leaves me, frankly, flabbergasted. Rather than listen to his presentation last fall, I was busy organizing a little luncheon with an "Inner Circle of Outer Darkness Denizens."

Just off the top-of-my head, he's attached himself to "anti-Masonry," and that is a subject I've looked at extensively. Each Masonic lodge was essentially an "entity unto itself," and I find his "generalizations" unwarranted at this point.

__________
*having finished my BA on the "12-year program" (and later matriculating in an MA program I left in good standing, hoping to complete at some point), that's a subject I feel qualified to speak to. I understand the issues some truly gifted sorts have with "academia," but there is also a "discipline" to one's thinking acquired that I believe to be paramount in spite of all the butt-ugly politics that arise (and they are legion, yes).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2018 03:13PM by SL Cabbie.

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Posted by: You Too? ( )
Date: August 11, 2018 12:56PM

Any study, whether in physics or Women’s Studies, is going to have parameters around it. Those parameters need to be justified because, at least since the rise of postmodernism in the humanities and social sciences, it is recognized that the parameters will affect the outcome of the study. Criddle, et al, provide an excellent example of this. In Women’s Studies this, and similar issues, have been most thoroughly set out by Joan Scott in “Gender, a Useful Category of Analysis.” To paraphrase the point I want to make here, if you don’t look at women, you are guaranteed not to find them. If you don’t include Emma, you are guaranteed not to find Emma in the results.

In a word study of the Book of Mormon, who are you going to include, who are you going to exclude and more importantly, why? PP Pratt is included as a control. An interesting choice. I have no problem including Rigdon, a major figure who’s pre BofM contact with JS has been disputed prior to Criddle, et al. Spaulding has long been seen as the source. Who else? The people who produced the manuscript: Emma, Harris, Emma’s brother and Cowdery.

Emma’s brother can quickly be dropped as his contribution was less than minimal. Harris’s contribution was lost but that does not mean that his ideas did not reappear in the balance of the manuscript. Most of Emma’s writing was lost as it preceded Harris’s. Her handwriting is detected in a few parts of the manuscript of what was published as the BofM. However, Emma was present during the whole production of the manuscript except for the time spent at the Whitmers. No one else can claim this. If you buy the Gold Plates part, faked per Vogal, or otherwise, Emma was required to be present when they were retrieved. In other words, the only person who had a longer history with the alleged Gold Plates and the resulting manuscript than JS was Emma.

Emma had been to boarding school and had received more formal education that anyone else in the Smith family. She was possibly even better educated than Cowdery at the time. Furthermore, Emma admits that on at least one occasion she and Joseph talked through what should go in the manuscript, contradicting a companion statement by her that Joseph “translated” continuously. Such continuous translation was to be a sign of JS’s divine dictation. The incident is not trivial even if it was brief. Their discussion was whether Jerusalem had walls. Joseph didn’t know, Emma did. (The issue is not in the BoM and presumably was part of the 116 pages). But the big issue is what the hell else did they talk about now that Emma has shown her cards? If even her hand writing is mostly gone, how many of her ideas or how much of her verbiage remains? She’s certainly no more remote than Spaulding?

Bringing together, Emma, Scott and the need to defend parameters, if Criddle, et al, in their technically brilliant study, do not want to include Emma they need to say why. Perhaps the results will be negative, that would have been a possibility with any of the candidates. But there is too much of a possibility that she was involved with the text and she has left enough letters that there is a sample that can be used by the program.

Otherwise, Criddle, et al, will have committed what is known in at least some Women’s Studies circles, as an erasure.

Don’t erase women.

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Posted by: Craig C ( )
Date: August 12, 2018 10:19AM

We are looking into Lucy Smith as a possible contributor.

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Posted by: You Too? ( )
Date: August 14, 2018 06:08PM

Sounds excellent.

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Posted by: cricket ( )
Date: August 15, 2018 07:42AM

I sincerely appreciate your detailed explanation of "erasure" because I was guilty of this with my superficial awareness of who may have been the real authors of the Book of Mor-men or should I say now, The Book of More-women.

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Posted by: You Too? ( )
Date: August 15, 2018 03:17PM

You are welcome.

I suppose many of us are guilty.

I'm just excited that Craig is considering Lucy.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: August 11, 2018 03:18PM

I don't know exactly why, but I'm feeling vindicated! ...without having done a darn thing!!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 11, 2018 03:24PM

EOD has spoken.

End of discussion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2018 03:24PM by Lot's Wife.

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