My list

1.Some information posted is just plain wrong.There is nothing wrong with pointing out false information.

2. Mormons and other people are individuals and no trait applies to everyone. That is called stereotyping and is a logical fallacy as well as easily disproved. If you dont mean all Mormons or whoever, qualify your statement. Use the word'some' or give specific examples and no one will complain.

3.Many of us have friends and relatives who are Mormon, Catholic, Muslim etc and we feel attacked when people make broard statements about how they all do a certain obnoxious thing.They dont. That is stereotyping.

4. We didnt all have the same experiences in the church. Just because your parents were abusive doesnt mean mine were. Maybe yours would have been abusive even if they werent Mormon. Your bishop may have been a jerk. Mine was not. In fact he was a good friend of my dad who didnt like a lot of Mormons.

5. We didn t all leave for.the same reasons. A person like me who left because it didnt meet my needs and because.I found it boring and objected to some teaching isnt going to feel the same way about it as someonenwho was abused.

I tend to root for the underdog wherever.

Yes there is a lot of bad things about Mormonism that deserves outing.

It doesn't equate IMO to vilifying the people who are LDS because they are duped and deceived into believing it. Some are salt of the earth kind of people.

Then there are others with questionable motives. I don't trust most people, Mormon or not. That's based on a lifetime of experience. While I know there is good in the world, I've seen enough of the evil to know that there are a fair number of people both in and out of TSCC who are no damned good.

Being of Jewish descent as well as Mormon (and Protestant,) I feel for people persecuted because of their religion. When the persecuted become the persecutor, the tables change. The Mormons who threw Jews under the train during the Holocaust deserve no absolution for that.

Nor do I want to become the enemy of good people no matter their religion.

Still to have been raised inside a cult, and see the evil from the inside out ... that deserves outing. People have a right to make informed decisions. Something I was denied growing up in TSCC.

Agree totally.

One slight nit pick, because that is who I am.

There is a difference between defending the believers/adherents of a religion and the religion it'self.

Catholics and Protestants are good people, for the most part. Their religions are responsible for atrocities that make Mormonism look like an ant on a mountain.

When I was Mormon I was a good man, for the most part. I believed in a religion that slowly and systematically destroyed the lives of some of my closest family members.

A missionary is not responsible for Joseph Smith being a terrible person. But the Mormon church is.

I think this is a good point.

I agree with BD and AJ that the stereotypes one sometimes sees here regarding religion resemble in some respects the stereotypes that sometimes appear, intentionally or inadvertently, about race and gender. It is refreshing to see people underscore the importance of individual knowledge and behavior relative to larger categories.

You are making a different point. It is possible, even highly valuable, to distinguish between an organization or movement on the one hand and the people who comprise it on the other. There are good movements that include some very bad people and bad religions that encompass good people.

Again, facts matter. If we cannot nail down the bases of our own views and define our terms, discussion with others becomes meaningless. Even internal reflection is likely to proceed no further than irrational impulse.

So bring on the precision, bring on the facts!

Agree, but occasionally there is need to defend Mormonism such as when someone claims Mormons believe or do something that they dont.Ordinarily, for me, it is more about defending people. I very much dislike the church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2018 07:05PM by bona dea.

Yes.

Why do I defend Mormons over Exmormons sometimes?

I've been interested in this group.

http://www.kcoasis.org/about-oasis/

While I don't value their other four values like I do this one, I believe it wholeheartedly. It is part of being human for me.

"People are More Important Than Beliefs

Throughout history beliefs, dogmas, and ideologies have divided
people and have been the source of wars, persecution, and other conflicts. The Oasis movement values the well-being of
people over any abstract belief, dogma, theology, or philosophy. Our common humanity is enough to bind us together in
meaningful community. (And, yes, we are fully aware that this is also a belief—but we’re just fine with a little
irony in our lives!)"

I love my deluded Mormon family and chose to stay with them over causing a religious war for my kids, myself, and the love of my life.

The Mormon beliefs aren't even the worst part of Mormonism. The cult machinery designed to suck in money and produce confused, conflicted, and often abused people is what I find unsupportable. I can't even qualify Mormonism as a "traditional" religion. It is a Ponsi scam of a religion. But even if my little family worshipped Charlie the Unicorn and wanted to attend the Big Rock Candy Mountain of Lord Charlie Church I would support them as people and NOT their beliefs.

People are more important. If I can help anyone recover from Mormonism I will be thrilled but the ones I most want out are deeply in it.

My eldest turns 21 today. Instead of having her first drink with her, I'm reading her email telling me she had her first cup of coffee which was fake like most Mormon things.

Here is what I read.

"-I have had my first cup of coffee. 21 years and it finally happened. Ok, not really, but it was close. The members here drink MORCAF. This literally means Cafe de Mormonas. It is not coffee, but it smells and looks a lot like it. I am not a huge fan, but this week members gave us some like every day."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2018 06:51PM by Elder Berry.

If your daughter had been sent to France her breakfast drink would be a bowl of hot chocolate. :)

That's traditional French cafe au lait. ;)

Cafe au lait is coffee with milk. Chocolat Chaud is hot chocolate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2018 07:32PM by Devoted Exmo.

Yeah, and both are pretty popular in France

And I defend mormons' right to drink the one without the coffee.

I didn't really pay any attention... Which one was the mormon French mormon drink??

In Mexico, we drank whatever the senior companion said to drink.

lol.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In Mexico, we drank whatever the senior companion
> said to drink.

I think she does this and so had her first "Coffee."

When my bro served his mission in Paris and Versailles, he was stuck drinking soda pop. The water wasn't safe to drink unless it was boiled, and that was before bottled water was a thing.

Since mishies couldn't drink wine, oya vey. Soda it was.

It's also a big reason why he didn't have a single convert during his mission. No Catholic in their right mind was going to give up their wine.

I knew cafe au lait is coffee with milk. I was referencing Mormon coffee when I said that (tongue in cheek.)

My daughter drank hot chocolate during her year in France, because it was customary. It is a French equivalent of breakfast coffee for Americans. At least in the French homes and restaurants she frequented.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2018 09:44PM by Amyjo.

Good points bona dea except I don't see correcting false information as a defense of religion. Making factual statements is not a defense of anything. It is an attempt to add clarity and broaden the focus to include the entire picture.

I have not seen anyone defend Mormonism here. I have seen sharp points of view, often from you, but that is not necessarily a defense.

Loving a Mormon is not defending their church. Seeing value in them as individuals is not a defense of Mormonism. Being kind to a missionary is not a defense of Mormonism. It is quite simply human kindness---nothing to do with religion.

I agree.

I dont stand silent.In real life I have stood against the church and many of its views. That does not mean I have to hate all Mormons. See the difference,messygoop?

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I dont stand silent.In real life I have stood
> against the church and many of its views. That
> does not mean I have to hate all Mormons. See the
> difference,messygoop?

I do not, but I am not going to tell you how to think or feel.

I wouldn't attend another church baptism just because it's my family, but there's a lot of people here that would. Heck, some would jump in line just to be the first to congratulate the bishop on his fine talk.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2018 08:55PM by messygoop.

If it was a fine talk, why not? Do you truly hate all Mormons including your family? If so,did they do something bad to deserve your hate or is it simply because they are Mormon?

You know my Dad the stake patriarch came to see me in a play that he considered blasphemous. It was hard for him but he knew it meant a lot to me. Does not mean he supported the message of the play. Means he supported his son.

That’s solid.

You might as well say that the church is perfect, but the members are not.

After reading the replies, I understand why so many people look the other way instead of speaking up when something was wrong.

Can you explain your comment? I know why I stood silent but I'm not sure I take your meaning.

I've never seen anyone at RFM state that the church is perfect but the members are not or even insinuate that. I don't see how that tired old saying relates to the premise at hand.

What I am reading here is--the church certainly isn't perfect and is better described as an imperfect fraud, but also what is being said is that the members, like everyone else, may have a good side, a worthwhile side-- even if they aren't perfect either and even if they are Mormons.

We're all works in progress who get better and better as we forget that tired old admonition, "Be ye therefore perfect . . ."

messygoop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After reading the replies, I understand why so
> many people look the other way instead of speaking
> up when something was wrong.


In 14 years since stopping believing and refusing to baptize all my children the only time I went to church to hear a talk was my eldest child's farewell talk.

I don't pay for her mission. The most the Mormon Church has gotten from me is food I bought for my family and they took to church.

How exactly, am I looking the other way instead of speaking up?

I've told my family the real history. I've told them all about how I find it an intolerable organization. I've destroyed many social opportunities and potential friendships with my family from answering honestly questions posed by Mormons who have intersected our lives.

Your broad brush is very offensive. If how you feel is that former Mormons should have nothing to do with current ones, just come right out and say it.

This sentiment seems to be the 400 lb. gorilla at RfM no one who seems to espouse it is willing to admit. You have posters like Cheryl vaguely posting about supporting the Mormon Church. You have your comments accusing people here of tacitly supporting it.

Why not come clean if you feel no support of any Mormons is acceptable?

Perhaps, EB, we're simply seeing the spectrum of humanity?

Ever seen a person kick a dog, for no discernable reason? Not my kind of human being, but they're out there.

Ever seen a Christ succor a Samaritan, surrounded by people who can't fathom why he's stooping so low? Sadly, also not my kind of human, but they're out there. In my defense, I want to say that I am more understanding now and that perhaps if not too many people were watching, I'd go to the aid of a despised person; but it's too little, too late

I love my TBM daughter and her TBM kids.

Further deponent sayeth not.

Though it's ironically maligned as a purveyor of control and limited rights, in countries run by oppressive governments, religion can play a vital role in creating a conscience against government abuses.

In China, the growth of the Christian church has created a tense dynamic pitting freedom against government control. And any movement that promotes freedom under an oppressive regime is probably a good thing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/christian-heartland-opens-window-into-fight-for-chinas-soul/2018/08/07/0d6ea61a-99f9-11e8-a8d8-9b4c13286d6b_story.html?utm_term=.7825c3e781bd

I agree with this.

In a dictatorial system, the emergence of any alternative power center is a threat to the status quo especially when it is organized around moral claims that go beyond the state. That is why so many repressive regimes try to suppress religions--or at least non-state religions. Poland and its relationship with Solidarity provides an apposite illustration of how religion can help break down dictatorships.

At the same time, the anti-tyrannical religion can also be tyrannical in its relations with its adherents. Lutheranism and Calvanism are good examples of that: they helped tear down Catholicism in parts of Europe and then formed close relationships with the following governments, many of which were themselves quite repressive.

So the relationship is complex but does indeed function in some cases as you write.

I still have ties to TSCC based on my extended family and relatives. About the one thing that really brings any of us together nowadays are for funerals. So for that I've made an exception.

I love my family and proud of our pioneer heritage. That's an aspect of Mormonism I defend up to a point.

I'm careful not to criticize or condemn them because they still believe. While I'm pretty sure they consider me an apostate. I know better. Honestly though, I believe that I'm much more tolerant of their choice of a religion than they are toward others.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2018 10:16PM by Amyjo.

"... proud of our pioneer heritage. That's an aspect of Mormonism I defend up to a point."

Out of interest, why Amyjo? (if you care to expand this thought)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2018 01:34PM by Nightingale.

It isn't something I'm proud of and I have a whole temple theatre full of the stars of Mormon History.

Brother Brigham and Brother Joe are particularly vile ancestors for me.

I think it's all about bragging. And I should know!!

See, I'm the Iman at the local Sons of Moctezuma Lodge & Carwash, so I know about pride!! The fact that I may or may not have some of Moctezuma's Aztec DNA ticking, humming or thrumming through my body isn't what counts. Nope, not at all!

What counts is that I know I'm better than you, because I'm a Son of Moctezuma! ...I know I'm better because it says so in our charter and car wash tip guide.

I'm glad you have your membership to give you the pride and recognition you deserve!

For myself, I'm glad I don't have any mormon pioneer heritage. I would find it a bit embarrassing. It's bad enough that my mom's family were converts and therefore I was born a mormon. They were kind of foolish people. I do pride myself in walking away from it. But that doesn't mean there aren't lots of good folks who are trapped in the delusion.

I was once a guest on an internet radio show about Mormonism (by
non-Mormons) and spent most of the time "defending" the Church
against the crazy rumors that they'd all heard.

I know that feeling! In my case, I wanted to clear up the misconceptions so that I could move on to the really horrific truths regarding the church.

But they ran out of time and so I looked like a complete apologist.

I would like this site to have some credibility, but when we use the same thinking that TBMs do, I like to correct that. Sometimes it is embarrassing.

For example, when someone rants about how all the church leaders are abusive jerks, I think back to all the leaders I knew who were not abusive jerks.

And I was a leader and don't think I was a jerk.

If Mormons generally are so terrible, that should apply to all of us who were Mormons, right?

We're just a bit too desperate here to find stories of Mormons acting badly. That doesn't disprove Mormonism, just like good Mormons don't prove Mormonism.

The whole point of this place should be to show people that it is okay to follow your own path. You can have free agency.

TBMs can do their thing, and we can do ours. Neither group should revel in converting or disparaging the other.

I wish there were more thread like this on RFM. What seems to be the recurring thread that brings most people here outside of their wanting to distance themselves from Mormonism is the conflict they know will emerge once they present this reality to their loved ones, whether that be their children, parents, or spouses.

These people are human beings. They believe in something that I find to be nonsense. But a lot of us here remember that these beliefs are so near to the hearts of loved ones that saying that they no longer believe in the church is the same thing as saying that after they die they will no longer be with them for the rest of existence. A preoccupation with the afterlife allows the church to distract people from examining their own lives in the here and now, but that isn’t how the faithful see it.

That is the side that is hard to artfully articulate on this website because people like messy goop or Cheryl will seem to paint everyone with such a broad brush that anything that isn’t some horrible maligning of the church is considered apologetics.

I’m not even saying that we have to respect Mormonism. I don’t and probably never will, because of how personal it is to me about how badly it’s fucked up my life. But I won’t air my beliefs about this to My family because that’s incredibly disrespectful and I love my family. And plus I’ve already done it and it didn’t go well and it doesn’t serve to do anything but cause strife. They know where I stand with it and frankly little else needs to be discussed.
Which is what I would hate to see here amongst forum members, the idea that anything That isn’t 100% negative about the Mormon church is somehow compromising ones nonbelief in it, which is nonsense. It’s like the opposite of what my family and a lot of Mormons I know believe, the idea that expressing anything that isn’t 100% positive about the church is anti-Mormon.

If we choose to abide by this kind of absolutism we’ll just become like the institution many of us here revile.

Well said. Perhaps those who hate all Mormons have had worse experiences with the church and members than we have. Even so, they need to realize that Mormons are people-some good and some bad and that we have had different experiences. If I can realize that their experiences were bad, they should be able to realize that mine were okay.

I am glad to.m see that some people agree with me. I was a little reluctant to start this thread as I was afraid of being flamed



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2018 10:12PM by bona dea.

I will defend the RIGHT to our beliefs, religious or otherwise. That is an all incompassing statement. It's about our freedoms. I have a right to my beliefs, just as anyone else does.
It is not about who is right or wrong, or who was hurt or angry and who was not, who is better or worse, who is good or evil.
None of that has anything to do with the RIGHT to our individual, personal belief system.

Religious belief systems are based on visionary, metaphysical, supernatural claims including mysticism, legends, history around some still standing places, some real people, allegory, traditions,saga, folk tales, and on and on. Some, in the case of Mormonism and the Book of Mormon are teaching stories with a Christian base, around imaginary people, places and things.

We are predominately, a product of the geography and environment of our birth. That is true for most of the world. We can stick with it or change our mind as many times as we want.

I left the Mormon Church. I changed my mind about my belief system aka World View. I can do that. So can anyone. I was not angry nor do I feel the religion or the people are evil or worthless. It was never about some kind of "recovery" for me. We all do it our way. There is no one size fits all.

Anything one human being can do, so can another. Humans have a wide spectrum of behaviors, attitudes, etc.

Life is short. There is only so much time. We have no idea when that time is up.

My view is to live your life the way you want to with as much peace and harmony as possible. However you do that is entirely up to you.

Don't like the belief system you're involved with? Change your mind. Find one you do like, or create your own. I did just that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2018 01:58AM by SusieQ#1.

Okay, great - but why the need to broadcast it?
What are you REALLY defending?


(Hint: it's not Mormonism)

What do you mean by "broadcasting?" Can you expand on that or provide examples to help clarify what you mean?

For example, I've never seen Bona Dea broadcasting apologetics for the mormon church. What I have seen is Bona Dea correcting accidental or intentional misrepresentations of what mormons believe. There's nothing wrong with that.

I mean, as missionaries we spent all day constructing straw men of other religions just to tear them down. Shouldn't we be better than that?

Thank you,sillyrabbit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2018 02:56PM by bona dea.

>>Nothing that ridiculous could be all bad...

/insert yet another speech about the perils of "dichotomous" thinking (i.e. black-and-white)

A couple of my own originals (at least I think they are):

>>I'm not 'anti-Mormon'; I'm pro-truth...

>>Shoot, without Mormonism, most of us wouldn't be here...

I'm honest enough to recognize I "enjoy" tweaking TBM's (although I tend to be extra careful with the ones who are still friends; I often keep quiet at those times); Seriously, Robert Kirby and I were in the same ward when we were in high school, and my parents still live near his... As a Mormon, he as an advantage in that department, alas.

I grew up in a "Jack Mormon family" (there are different kinds of Jack Mormons, of course) where the family legend was "The happiest day of my great-great grandmother's life was the day her husband's first wife died." I'm certain there are LDS members who would find that pretty offensive.

I came here 20 years ago because this site offered me a connection I hadn't had, even in 12-Step Programs where I "genuinely belong." I grew up non-LDS in a very LDS part of the Salt Lake Valley, and I was writing--and publishing--on "religious subjects" when I was still in high school and pretty much an atheist. One of my "true heroes" was my old elementary school principal who was ex-communicated from the church in the 1960's over the black priesthood issue... I managed to talk with him a bit a few years before he passed away (he was good friends with the Tanners), and my only regret is I didn't spend more time with him.

Politically, I'm a believer in "secularism," but that one "bedevils me" the same way other "elements of idealism" cause problems. The challenge is acquiring a strong enough sense of self--based, I believe, on personal integrity--to be able to move forward through this life with a degree of inner strength and self-validation while still being capable of honest introspection. And if things get really tough, it's still okay to pray...

SLC
Hoping he has compassion for those who've never heard of "Rule 62"

Cabdriver Philosopher (nli) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And
> if things get really tough, it's still okay to
> pray...

Er you left your room this morning, did you think to pray? ;)

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Er you left your room this morning, did you think to pray? ;)

Did you pray to think?

I think the thinking has been done when I resort to prayer.

I always love the way that anti-religious types claim religious people are gullible when they often repeat unsubstantiated stories and rumors themselves...

Very true.

Hypocrisy is the human condition and not a religious one.

1.Some information posted is just plain wrong.There is nothing wrong with pointing out false information.

This is true and I have to explain this to non-Mormon friends all the time. I've heard all of your dirt, most of it is nonsense so it is easy to dismiss out of hand.

Now let's get to the real dirt that only mormons know about.


2. Mormons and other people are individuals and no trait applies to everyone. That is called stereotyping and is a logical fallacy as well as easily disproved. If you dont mean all Mormons or whoever, qualify your statement. Use the word'some' or give specific examples and no one will complain.

I can pick a mormon out of a crowd, even ex-mormons. You and I are far more socially conditioned than you realize. Might even say it is a culture, like growing up Texan.

This is especially true of anyone who grew up LDS in Utah or Idaho.


5. We didn t all leave for.the same reasons. A person like me who left because it didnt meet my needs and because.I found it boring and objected to some teaching isnt going to feel the same way about it as someonenwho was abused.

My Mother's side of the family has been in the LDS church from close to the beginning.

People talk about a shelf. Mine started with noticing (contradicting your point #2) that people act like puppets when they are doing Mormon things - praying, giving testimony, talking about life goals (go on a mission/bang uh I mean marry a hot mormon girl). It is deeply programmed into us.

That was the loose thread in the sweater that I tugged that unraveled the whole thing. Things my Mother or Grandmother said that were meant to be inspiring stories about their testimony that included a dark period that had something to do with the temple.

Then I noticed that the Salt Lake temple on the outside is covered in very unchristian things like stars and moons, and all seeing eyes. The silly clothes and weird handshakes. The Temple LDS church is nothing at all like non-Temple LDS church.

Nuclear truth bomb to the shelf. This is all just a silly cult invented by a charismatic huckster that stole a bunch of goofy stuff from the Free Masons and other secret societies. You can't unsee that kind of revelation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2018 12:43PM by joecody.