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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 11:38AM

I'm finishing up this audiobook and in the more recently listened to chapters the author makes a couple of bold claims. I would like RfMer's opinions and thoughts on them.

https://www.audible.com/pd/My-Secret-Garden-Audiobook/B07CTYNQKP


She claimed that women don't make themselves up and dress themselves up for any people in particular (read some sort of sexual and/or show off thing) but to avoid the social repercussions of not doing so.

She also claimed that women generally (there are many exceptions and she grants the women who contributed to her book exceptional status) suppress their sexual fantasies, hiding them even from themselves. She commented that the saddest thing in her research was the fact that it made her conclude that women could have as much sexual fantasy as men but that they suppress it and this happens because there is no socially accepted sexually unrepressed ideals for women.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 12:01PM

I do believe women dress up for other women as many women are extremely catty. But in the end, it doesn't matter as women will be catty anyway. Women do also dress up for men. I'm lazy. I don't. I guess I try. ha ha ha I don't know if I do or not. I have a boyfriend. I'm somewhat overweight. I dress nice, but I am not dressing up for anyone, except for how I feel about myself.

It comes back to the wedding I just went to. I was not excited to go. I told my boyfriend I had to know long beforehand what the dress was at each event so I could find clothes to wear long before so I could feel good in the clothes I was in. I shopped for a few months, bought a lot of dresses on line, and returned many, but I found more than I needed (and kept the ones I liked for other events as I had only 1 dress--the one for my daughter's wedding that never happened).

I found ones I felt good in and that he liked. I'm sure I was dressing for his ex and his ex's family, etc., put on a good impression for them. I didn't dress for him except to make him feel good about who he is showing off.

I couldn't believe it--his ex was very jealous of me and she is thin. She wanted the divorce. I came away feeling wonderful about how I presented myself.

Sexual fantasies? My boyfriend has asked me that before. I have ONE that I can think of. I was taught not to think about sexual fantasies! To have had sex with my boyfriend at age 20 and not to have waited until I was an older overweight woman. Not to say I am what? A prude any longer. Frigid. That's the word. I'm definitely not frigid.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 12:32PM

Thanks for your candor and reply. I'm male so I wanted a female who could articulate a reply. My wife is one respondent I've got but I don't really want to share her thoughts here. Needless to say exposing her to this book has been a boon.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 09:29AM

Sexual fantasies ? I have sexual nightmares.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 11:16AM

If you have those as a child often they become a part of your grown up fantasies...if you have them.


Interestingly, according to the author many women have them and I mean many cause she said most women don't consciously think they have "fantasies" about sex. When the author juxtaposed "sexual fantasy" with what the women she was reading, interviewing, and conversing considered just random thoughts at random times their light bulbs when off.

Ironically, also according to the author, women are just as sexual as men, they just suppress it better and possibly because of guilt and social stigmas.

Sad that some of the most candid conversations I've had in my life have been with women but the sexual area is taboo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2018 11:30AM by Elder Berry.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 01:58PM

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ironically, also according to the author, women
> are just as sexual as men, they just suppress it
> better and possibly because of guilt and social
> stigmas.

In my conversations with men often their sexual thoughts are ones of male dominance. I think men might be just as sexually repressed as women. They only have socially approved outlets. Just look at the POTUS.

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Posted by: Nottelling ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 12:24PM

You want to talk about sex to women who aren't your wife? Generally that crosses boundaries that make people uncomfortable, On a forum like this it is ok, because we are all incognito, don't know each other and nobody sees each other face to face (or most people don't). As a married woman I am frequently curious about men's sex attitudes/believes and I work with men only (including my husband) and sometimes have broached the subject in front of him to other men in the room, but I think in person it is best to not be personal like my experience or your experience but a general overall thinking of men vs woman. Personal experiences to me cross boundaries and might give ideas of something like wow I like the way he thinks maybe we can have a fling or something like that and I don't want to go there and don't want others to go there either......safer that way, nobody gets hurt.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 02:07PM

You can talk about sex without mentioning anyone but yourself. I have several female friends and male friends and it is okay for these discussions with my male friends. I hear my female friends mention that they've discussed sex with their female friends.

I don't identify as only heterosexual. My wife knows. I can discuss my homosexuality with my male friends. They have no problem with it. Luckily I have very accepting friends.


I understand your prejudice but I don't agree with it. Just because I'm male I'm not to discuss it? Why?

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Posted by: PollyDee ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 02:09PM

Hmmm.... this book was written back in the 70's. I haven't read it, but I would initially think that some of the author's conclusions are a bit outdated.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 02:10PM

From my post, which ones?

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Posted by: PollyDee ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 03:39PM

I think that women, in general, have come a long way in sluffing off societal fashion expectations and dress appropriately and comfortably for the occasion whether it be for work, social occasions, recreation etc.

However, I do think that a lot of women are still judged more harshly for clothing choices - by both men and women - if they are not thin or considered beautiful. So called thin, beautiful women seem to be given a clothing pass more readily simply because of their body size. I know, because I have been thin, heavy, and thin again in the course of my life. Both men and women treat me deferentially when I am thin - no matter how I am dressed.

Personally, I don't "dress up" much at all. For most occasions I usually dress down a bit - nice, yet comfortable clothing, very simple or no jewelry, and little or no make-up. Most of the women I know, both young and old, do the same thing.

Are there women who dress for the purely sexual visual? Sure. However, I believe they are in the minority.

As far as women having sexual fantasies - I believe that it has long been established that, yes, yes we do! Again, This book was written in the 70s - the sexual revolution was still in progress. Thus, I believe it can readily be shown that this author's conclusions regarding the repressed sexual fantasies of women are outdated.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 03:43PM

I wonder how outdated they are for Mormon women?

In all my interactions with women I think there may not be as much repression as there was for their mothers and grandmothers but I think the 100 lb vestal untouched and untouchable virgin isn't dead just quite yet especially in the Mormon Celestially unsexually almost non-existent heavenly mother.

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Posted by: PollyDee ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 04:10PM

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In all my interactions with women I think there
> may not be as much repression as there was for
> their mothers and grandmothers

I agree.

> but I think the 100 lb vestal untouched and untouchable
> virgin isn't dead just quite yet especially in the Mormon
> Celestially unsexually almost non-existent heavenly mother.

I agree - not quite dead - but I see a more sexually informed generation emerging in Mormonism and with that an empowerment of personal choice.

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Posted by: cftexan ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 05:35PM

I only dress up when I feel like it. I dress up because I want to feel dressed up more than usual. Not for anyone else, but makes me feel good and therefore more confident. But mostly I'm a jeans, tshirt, no makeup woman.

Sexual fantasies, I have plenty. Not afraid anymore to tell them. Pretty open

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 06:02PM

Awesome. What interesting things are a part of your sexual fantasies?

For example, for me I don't think I've had a dominance fantasy where I'm the sexual aggressor or instigator in many years. I like being a seducer in fantasy more than submissive or overtly dominant.

Incidentally, I believe my sexual "fantasy" psychology is rarely something I strive for in reality. In reality sexuality is very different for me but I have read in this book how some women try very hard to make their reality from fantasy.

I wonder if sexual repression plays a part in creating these seemingly separate worlds of fantasy and reality where their intersections aren't hugely overlapping?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2018 06:02PM by Elder Berry.

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Posted by: cftexan ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 12:55PM

I do have a few dominance fantasies, mostly because I'm not a dominant person in any way in real life. Not sure I should go into detail of what mine are on here, but basically I'm very open and try many things at least once.

I've always been pretty imaginative sexual even as a young teen.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 01:03PM

Thanks. This is interesting. We can explore in fantasy what we sometimes never would in real life.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 07:06PM

"Share The Fantasy -- Chanel No. 5" directed by Ridley Scott
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNSmyTQJne0

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 12:45PM

Loved that commercial.

Hopefully women's sexual fantasizing can blossom now and in the future. I see this as a huge indicator of progression for human cultures. It is a natural part of ourselves which need not be suppressed, feared, or incur jealousy in a sexual partner.

Hopefully one day most women will recognize it in themselves and take joy in it.

Women are that they might have joy.

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