Many years ago, when I still numbered among the Mormon faithful, we were clogging up the hallways between meetings when the first counselor to the bishop said to me, in passing, "Sister catnip, you have been called to teach in Primary. Your husband has already consented."

So - Daddy signed a consent form, did he? I WAS IN MY FORTIES AT THE TIME!!! That is an adult, any way you look at it!!

I whirled and called, loudly, "Brother So-and-So!" He turned, and with the multitudes swirling all around us, I said, rather loudly, "I decline the calling." Before he could reply, I turned and stalked away.

It was lucky for him that he didn't try to make an issue of it. I was angry enough to rip off his ill-fitting toupee.

Sadly, I think that's a pretty common experience for Mormon women.

I think the more tactful way would have been to ask you first, then consult with your husband.

Yes, some Mormon women are treated like children.

catnip Wrote
>
> I whirled and called, loudly, "Brother So-and-So!"
> He turned, and with the multitudes swirling all
> around us, I said, rather loudly, "I decline the
> calling." Before he could reply, I turned and
> stalked away.
>
> It was lucky for him that he didn't try to make an
> issue of it. I was angry enough to rip off his
> ill-fitting toupee.

On the other hand, some Mormon women act like children.

Ah, yes! The excellence of children; simple, direct, concise and honest.

Where's Francis Xavier, Ms. Flyte? I think you're better off conversing with him.

What a marvelous statement in its truth and veracity.Matt 18:3 Verily I say into you except he be converted and become as little children he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven".
What people overlook are the enduring qualities of a child and how difficult it is as an adult to manifest those qualities.

What child-like qualities are we talking about here: ignorance, tempermantal, helplessness, messiness, lack of self discipline, lack of competence...? Need I go on?

1 Corithians 13:11 - When we were children, we thought and reasoned as children do. But when we grew up we quit our childish ways. I was a child, I spoke like a child, and reasoned like a child. When I became an adult, I set aside childish ways.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Be not children (immature) in your understanding (thinking); be as innocent as babies, but use your intellect as mature adults.

The qualities I was thinking of are being the lowest in the social pecking order; being unable to do what you are inclined to do, because there is always some grown-up who will say "no." That horrible feeling of impotence we had when crossed by adults.

I remember demanding of my mother, "Why is it OK for you to hit me but I'm not supposed to hit back?" She said, "You can't hit back until you are 21." So I began keeping a written list of wrongs that I planned to pay back when I turned 21. Eventually, that list was pages and pages long. And in most cases, my mother was the villain.

It would have been a knuckle-fest worthy of "Rocky."

There was never much affection between us. Lots more confrontation.

I've made a point of not being that kind of mother myself.

That's the typical mentality they are taught to emulate.

Be sweet. Be subservient. The "sing song" voice that Mormon women tend to speak with is cultivated - as part of the brainwashing that takes place - they talk a certain way because it's expected and instilled in them to do so.

One cannot be a fence sitter in Mormondom. You're either in or out. There is no in-between. Once you learn it's a cult it isn't a hard call to make.

Not just because he knows I'd be pissed, but he was good about that. He was ex. sec. for quite a while and the bishop wanted to talk to me for over 2 years. He just kept telling him I wouldn't come in. He knew I wouldn't go if he did set up an appt.

I didn't want to be a man in mormonism. I think I just didn't want to be in mormonism. There is a whole different level of abuse for men who aren't striving to be a leader.

I know a "sister" who earned a reprimand from a member of the bishopric for telling her class of young women that they would be wise to pursue an education so they would have more control over their own futures. Happily, the bishop overruled the reprimand. Unhappily, that member of the bishopric is now the bishop of that Ward.

Until I came here to RFM, I mistakenly believed that the church promoted the young women to develop their education, refine their talents (artistic and music) and build strong self-reliance skills. That's what I thought YW leaders were encouraging while I was told the importance of developing a career that was in demand and taking care of my studies. Boy, was I wrong!

All the mistreatment of women and they still outnumber the men.

And the guys that try to quit church and lead their wives away from oppression are rewarded with divorce papers.

True. Funny thing is that a lot of this "patriarchal" type behavior was instilled in the boys by....wait for it...their mothers.

In my own case, my dad was never an ambitious, power-craving guy and I think he would have preferred to go camping or just about anything else other than sit through meetings on most Sundays "exercising" his priesthood.

But my mom was always very diligent in reminding him of his priesthood responsibilities, even to the point of regularly reminding us all at family meals about the true order of presiding authority and the selecting of the person who would say a blessing on the food.

It was always along the lines of: "Well, honey, who are you going to ask to say the blessing today?"

Then my dad would pick someone. I don't recall a single time when my dad did this at his own initiative.

My mom ran the show when it came to the exercise of priesthood authority, the way that the godfather tells the mayor what he needs to do as mayor and gives the precise instructions that the chief of police is to follow in making sure that things are all done "correctly" and "by the book" ifyuhknowswuddaymean buttabing!

Of course my mom's intentions were always pure, unlike the godfather's when the godfather tells the "proper authorities" how to exercise their proper authority, but I suspect there's a huge percentage of Mormon households where the patriarchy is pretty much only exercising their "patriarchal prerogatives" in the precise manner and at the precise times that they are instructed to do so...when they are instructed to do so...by the ladies who are "loyal and obedient subjects" just doing what they do to make sure that the guys do what has to be done and know the correct way that it's supposed to be done.

They say they do all the nice things. Then they do all the bad things.

No one is really treated well in the church. Men are expected to serve the church and there’s a lot of pressure put on them do so but women are expected to serve EVERYONE. Women might as well be property. Everything they taught me was about serving my future husband and children or protecting my value, not as a person but as an asset to him and the church.

I believe it used to be in the Handbook that permission had to be asked of the Priesthood holder in the family before a woman was called to anything. It's not in the new one, and I'm at work and can't get a hold of an older one right now.

At one time the head of household was condulted about their spouse and children before extending a calling.

My father used that both ways.

He'd tell the bishop it was up to us.

Plus. More than once. He'd go to the bishop and inform him that his spouse or child would no longer be performing a calling. The bishop always released us.

Even going by that formulation (asking permission to extend a calling), I think the first counselor guy in Catnip's story took it a step beyond.

My understanding is that they would essentially ask the husband if it would be okay if they ask the wife. (Still weird.) But the first counselor guy in the story above was being very manipulative in just saying that the decision to accept the calling had already been made for her.

My mom is as devout, traditional and dedicated a Mormon as they come, but if my dad had ever made such a decision for her? Oohh....I shudder to even contemplate the consequences my dad would have faced.

I'm 100% sure that in any case where they tried to do that with my dad, he would say "you'll have to ask her" as in strongly implying to the bishopric guy: "Whoa, partner! don't drag me into this. This is your responsibility. You're the calling extender guy. Not me."

It can´t be easy for a woman to be a mormon. One of the reasons I left the mormonchurch was because the women did not have the "priesthood" and that I was so tired to always listen to the prophet and the superholy leaders who always was inspired men. And of course..in the celestial heaven it can´t be that fun to be a women, where it is much less men...a polygamist heaven is not my cup of tea.

Its alienating. Not just that they are all "inspired men", but that the possibility isn't there for any of the inspired leaders to ever be a woman.

Its out of the realm of posssibility.

Then these inspired men go on to talk about how great women are.

Apparently not great enough to do anything without a man supervising. And apparently not great enough to have any authority over a man.

Nah, but they're greaaaaattt!

some MORmON women want to be treated like little children. My aunt certainly did. She wanted a gold star for her forehead for being such a good girl well into her late '70's when she finally died after being on a couples full time MORmON mission at Church headquarters doing genealogy for over a decade. ( WHAT A WASTE)

WHen my mom and uncle ( her brother) visited her as she was a terminal cancer patient (still living at home) she proudly announced to them that she had contacted the zone leader, which result in her getting permission to do what ever they wanted to together on the following morning. I almost blew up, and told her to tell the zone leader that he had my permission to shove himself up his own ass. Ultimately, it was her fault, NOT the Zone leader, even though THE (MORmON) church loves to foster and encourage that kind of SICKENING INFANTILE behavior.

That has been my experience too. There are many different kinds of families/family cultures within the church and always have been.

I have devout, 4th, 5th and 6th generation Mormons on both sides of the family. In all my extended family, including the oldsters who go way back, I can't really think of any of them where the wife has been a doormat for her husband. I can actually more easily point to some where the wife was/is actually the leader/driving force in all things church related and the husband is sincerely doing his best so that she will be pleased with him and feel like they are on track to get to the Celestial Kingdom.

I have on occasion met families where the husband barks out orders and the wife meekly obeys...and, TBH, it those encounters have been shocking to me. The fact that seeing that kind of husband-wife relationship dynamic was a shock to me is kind of evidence of how rare it has been among most of the families/couples I have known.

So, yeah, it does exist and to some degree the teachings of the Church have provided some support to it. But there have been strong women at all times in the church's history.

I've known for years about the women who divorced Brigham Young (the Godfather of the polygamist mafia in its heyday) and especially Ann Eliza, who wrote a tell-all book that must have embarrassed the hell out of Briggy. But more recently, I was surprised to find out how frequently there were divorces involving even the top apostles and such during the peak of the polygamist period, which would be the obvious peak patriarchy moment in Mormon history. Wilford Woodruff for example got ditched at least a couple of times by women who initiated divorces against him. He maybe would like to have given them the Danite treatment, but even back then there would be social condemnation for things like that.

So, not to discount the experiences of people who grew up in families that made submissiveness seem mandatory, there does seem to be an element of choice for most. They choose to believe the scriptures that say that submissiveness is the correct way, they choose to interpret those scriptures in extreme ways...and they choose to act accordingly, thinking that it's a virtue and getting them brownie points in heaven. Your story about your aunt getting permission from the ZL is a perfect example. I've encountered people like that too (male and female) and it just leaves me confounded as to why they think that they're being virtuous when they do that.

Just because my aunt wanted to be treated like a child and wanted to defer to some sort of contrived external authority does NOT mean did not do a lot of ordering other people around, because she ordered around other people that she considered to be underlings A LOT, including her poor husband who was actually a much better person than she was. And it was her supposed very good girl standing in THE (MORmON) church that she used as a basis for her supposed supremacy and authority.


This is my aunt, or at least so close to her and the way she acted that it might as well be. (her indentical twin !!!!) There she is !!!!! and (FRANKLY) that woman is absolutely disgusting to me !!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3yx9O4T7Ks&t=620s

I find they like being treated that way. They are in their own protected little bubble and they don’t have to think. I’m starting to resent the mormon women I know. I’m losing respect for my mom and sisters who I know are smart in so many other areas of life. They won’t even hunk about an alternative naritive other than the LDS party line. I know they are trained from a young age to defer to men, to not question authority, but it now seems pathetic.

I have sisters who have always complained about the role of women in the church. (They are also SAHMs who expect their husbands to do half the housework, which will be waiting for them when they get home from work at 7 or 8pm and on weekends.)

When I was still a church-going schlub, I didn't say much to them on those occasions. Sometimes when I thought they had a good point, I'd say "yeah, that doesn't seem right."

Now that I'm the black sheep apostate in the family, sometimes when they're going on about it, I'll respond by asking why they continue to be active participants and supporters of such a flawed organization and point out that they can choose to reject it, based on logic, reason, knowledge of historical facts and so on, just like I did. Funny thing is that as soon as I do that, they immediately flip 180 degrees and start bearing testimony to me about how great the church is and how inspired the leaders are...and I start feeling like I'm in a meeting with the missionaries.

It used to make me dizzy and make my head hurt when they did that. Now I just get a chuckle out of it. But they've stopped complaining about the church in my presence as of late, which has deprived me of much entertainment, I must confess.

Yes, pathetic is the word. There’s nothing respectable about the Mormon way of life. Kowtowing to a bunch of know-nothings who could couldn’t find their butts with both hands.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2018 04:07AM by babyloncansuckit.

This was one of my first disturbing epiphanies as a young person (probably by the time I reached YW age)...I remember thinking to myself that women weren't treated the same as the men and not nearly as important. That realization was the beginning of the end for me.

I do believe that my mother has been stifled by this very problem. Sometimes I see snippets of great potential come out of her...but she has always been subservient to my dad and has the learned behavior of damsel in distress going on. She acts kind of helpless in a lot of ways and I think my dad likes it that way. For instance she ALWAYS gets lost when she goes into Sacramento for any reason (we live 25 miles out of the city). I refuse to be that clueless and helpless. If I want something done, I will learn to do it myself. I refuse to be helpless. Sometimes I think she envies me a bit, but she won't ever admit it. I also think she resents my dad for this mormon male role that he plays. I see it spill out in different ways. But, ultimately she falls in line because she very much wants that gold star. It makes me sad, but she chooses this lifestyle/CULTure!

Well, which came first, the chicken or the egg? A large majority of mormon women act like children. Is it because they're treated that way or are they treated that way because they act like that? Weren't we taught it's good to be as little children? It' isn't good.

Let me correct and add a few things.

First, it is assumed because a woman is Mormon and allows people to treat her like children, that Mormonism made her that way. Except that correlation doesn't mean causation. TBMs use the same faulty logic to attribute to Mormonism anything good that happens to them.

If it is just Mormonism making them submissive, why are some non-mos submissive? And why are some Mormon women not submissive and tell their leaders to shove it?

Turns out the biggest factor is personality type, which is largely genetic, just as we see in animals. I currently have hens that are picking on the submissive, so I have to separate them. They have never been to church.


Then the question is why would submissive women tolerate being treated like children. Do they simply like abuse? No.

They do it for the same reason many at a job tolerate poor treatment - they do it for the pay and benefits.

So what are the benefits of church for women?

Monopoly control of their husband's sexuality. Church makes them the sole outlet for release of his sexual tension. Which monopoly allows her to get more of his money and labor for each service rendered.

In addition, church pressures the man to be the sole breadwinner, so she may not need to ever work outside the home.

While feminists scream about the lack of career opportunities for women, most women that I know, in and out of church, would rather be home. Surely they are victims of the social construct, brainwashing little girls to be mothers. Can't have anything to do with estrogen and millions of years of bearing and nurturing children?

And yes, not all women want children and being at home - but more do than we are told. The OP generalizes, and so do I.

I know a couple non-mo wives who both have master's degrees and young children. They both want to be home, but have to work to pay off student loans. One of them only works 8 hours a week, and spends much time at her book club and reading books, leaving most of the housework to her engineer husband. All the while participating in women's marches shouting oppression.

One Sunday afternoon someone called on the phone and asked him if

I would give a 2&1/2 minute talk in Sacrament meeting.Dad was or had been a bishop.

He said "I don't know you will have to ask her".

They called back and I said NO!

Thanks Dad. I will always remember that.

I declined callings by telling the cult that my non member husband wouldn't allow me to have callings or pay tithing at this time when it suited me. They never said a word.

It felt good to throw their crappy rules back on them.

Never went to tithing settlement in all the decades I was a member either. Told them, "Oh I don't go to tithing settlement". Loved to see the stunned looks.

"Your husband has already consented"?!?! Gross!