I've been dealing with a clinically diagnosed borderline, narcissistic sister. She's also agonizingly religious. And now I'm discovering that her daughter is following in her footsteps.

I've just learned that I'm an empath and the main reason I regularly get destroyed by my sister and her daughter is that empaths have a certain predisposition to need a predetermined outcome when relating to others. This is a HUGE revelation to me. I now see why my sister's narcissism never really phases my mother so much. Mom is totally emotionally healthy. My need to always receive validation that I'm nice and good is what's killing me. Mom has always been telling me to "let it go" but I could never understand how she could say this. It's okay to be "not nice". It's okay to not get the outcome you want. Let the narcissists go and find some other people with healthy emotions to befriend. I've been singing and smiling ALL DAY today since it finally sunk into my thick skull that narcissists can be tossed aside, even if they are family. My mother has known this instinctively her whole life and could care less if my sister trashes her to others. She just carries on and enjoys her friends and me.

I'm going to miss my mom when she goes. I still have so much I know I could learn from her marvelous example. She's 92 now and I hope she stays around in good health for a very long time. I don't even care if her medical costs empty the bank. She's worth every penny!!!!!!!

Oh, the reason I'm posting this here is that LDS,Inc. has always pounded it into our dear little ears that we must always be NICE! We must never be contrary, especially girls. We must never oppose our leaders or disagree with the teachings.

Well, I DISAGREE WITH THE TEACHINGS! I'M NOT GOING TO BE NICE ANY MORE JUST TO GET ALONG WITH EVERYONE! I'M GOING TO BE CONTRARIAN WHEN I FEEL CONTRARY! AND I'M NOT GOING TO CARE IF ANYONE CALLS ME AWFUL FOR IT! I'M GOING TO FREE MYSELF FROM MY OWN UNHEALTHY WAY OF THINKING AND GET HEALTHY!


Sorry for yelling but that really felt good..........

That was my big revelation. Being nice to some people is the worst thing for them.

Be nice to you. At least get equal time.

Oppose everything you feel is wrong except the law. Even I am speaking up to people I never used to feel the power to speak up to. It is crazy to actually feel that you have some power as an individual. Nobody's actions effect me like before. I can handle anyone that crosses my path I feel.

It's a very healthy thing to let go of what other people think of you. I have a saying, "Not everyone is going to be a fan." The weird thing is that when you let go, sometimes the difficult person may come around.

summer Wrote:
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> It's a very healthy thing to let go of what other
> people think of you. I have a saying, "Not
> everyone is going to be a fan." The weird thing is
> that when you let go, sometimes the difficult
> person may come around.


I agree... I'm always myself and if someone doesn't like me

its ok. Besides if you aren't you , who else are you going to

be? Everyone else is taken. Being authentically who you are

is very healthy and people really appreciate it I think.

Do it and let us know how things are going for you.

It's helping now with my niece. I've been trying so hard to break through her hard bitten shell and get her to tell me what keeps her so snotty and rude around me. I've been doing hand stands trying to get her to open up to me. I'm now done. Whatever is up her hind end is no longer my problem. I bumped into her yesterday and asked her if I've done anything to her or not done something I should have done. She replied in the negative to both questions. I gave her a hug and said that if she wanted to talk sometime she could give me a call. She then immediately called her Mom and stated that I had done something to her I had not done. Big giant lie!! My sister called me and told me to apologize to her for something I had not done. I told my sister I hadn't done anything to her except have what appeared to be a phony "nice" conversation. When my sister made a few more choice snarky remarks I just ignored her. I never could do this before. She's always been able to push my buttons. For the first time I'm not obsessing about what this all means. I'm just through. My niece can just jump in a lake and my sister can join her. I just don't care any more. There are so many other nice women who like me and treat me with respect. Just because someone is blood doesn't mean they have to be your family. From now on I pick my family and I don't pick them.

Wow. That is real progress! I'd be really proud of myself if I were you.

Leaving people like that behind is a real service to your health and happiness. Good riddance.

For some reason when I read this post, I hear it all in the voice of Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz.


"My niece can just jump in a lake and my sister can join her. I just don't care any more Aunty Em."

Pooped: I think you're nice and good.

But I hope you get to the point where you don't give a damn what I think :)

Good luck.

For years, I suffered from a narcissistic mother. As a teen, I went to church leaders for help. They joined my mother in blaming everything on me. I only had one mother, and I owed to her everything. I needed to "bring her into the church" and be sealed to her. One bishop told me at 19 that I needed to stay home and live with her until I was married. I knew better than to heed that advice, but it made me wonder where the Holy Spirit was supposed to be. Wasn't a big selling point of the church that the Spirit was going to guide these authority figures in what to do?

As an adult, I suffered to the point of breakdown. I had moved away, but she used the telephone to destroy me. After years of this, I finally heeded counsel (not from the church!) and cut her off.

The LDS church is narcissistic, too. Narcissistic members often took advantage of me, while the nice members did not warn me or stick up for me when harm was done. They were good to me themselves, but they believed it was wrong to criticize other members.

Josephina Wrote:
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> The LDS church is narcissistic, too.

I wonder how many organized religious systems are? Mormonism started with a man who would meet God. It wasn't far fetched to style himself as one and create an organization that acts like it creates ones.

Tom Cruise may be the savior of the planet for Scientologists but in Mormonism every member a savior of their little corner of the planet be the person dead or alive.

I didn't need a bully as I lived with one. She was 17 months older than I was and I don't think she has ever forgiven me for being born. I was taught that I had to get along. We weren't supposed to argue. I could yell the loudest, so I oftentimes got in trouble for things she was doing. My dad did finally figure it out. BUT it was still up to me to keep things peaceful as it effected the entire family.

My dad asked me just before he died to make peace with my sister and I tried. He thanked me and told my sister, which most people never did, to make up with me. Then just before he died, he told me to stay away from her.

I helped raise my niece and 2 nephews. I love them almost like my own. I miss them. They couldn't get along with their mother and ran away from home many times. Two of them lived with me after high school. I told her daughter that I wouldn't ask her to pick sides and I am done with my sister and so I can't see my niece and nephews either, although my kids still do and in order to do so, they have to be nice to my sister and I understand that.

It has been very painful, but I can't have her in my life. I don't miss her. I miss her kids. I don't have to go along to keep peace in the family so she can abuse me more and make me out to be the bad guy. It has helped me a lot to finally get to a good place in my life.

I like you Pooped, and your mama too. May she live to be 120.

What your insight reminds me of is the Twelve Step Program in dealing with Alcoholics and others (like say your sister et al.) Since you cannot change their behavior, the best way to deal with them is to work on yourself.

Detaching with love helps.

Like the Serenity Prayer I'm fond of, sometimes recite goes, "Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. The courage to change the things I can. And the wisdom to know the difference." You don't need to be religious to use this. It's universal wisdom. :)

Not anymore. We don't talk. It's great.

I need to be totally committed like you are don to not talk to my family but sometimes I slip up and respond.

I never had the urge to be nice to assholes.

I am not sure what I believe about empaths but I can relate to you. I always feel like I have to be the nicest and most helpful person to EVERYONE around me. Sometimes people take advantage of me for that but I do notice that I tend to feel how the people around me feel. So I very easily get anxious in crowds or angry when people around me are arguing. I then will sit and torture myself with emotions over every minor interaction I have that can even be remotely negative. Sometimes I catch myself being even nicer to those who dont deserve it and then I take it out on people who dont deserve THAT! I'm trying to work on this but it can be a struggle for some reason.

intelligence. My therapist has talked to me about this many times in terms of some people in my life.

But you just described exactly what he told me. He said that oftentimes people with good emotional intelligence can feel what others do in public and so they isolate more as it is just too much for them to handle. My son is that way. My brother is, too.

I isolated from the public for a long time but I have been forcing myself to stay out and be around people more and actually enjoy it.

I was reading that empaths, as they age, sometimes get so isolated and discouraged by the world that they totally shut down and become horribly depressed because they are so vested in always having a happy ending in their relations with others. It just cannot always happen that way. Empaths have to tell themselves that it's not their responsibility to make others see the light and accept their positivity and love. Empaths can be kind of covert control freaks that want from others things they never ask for. They are too afraid of rejection if they ask but are angry if others don't give them what they want. I really think I have the potential to be one of these if I don't stop expecting what others cannot or will not give. The author stated that for some reason this is why empaths attract narcissists. Narcissists sense that the empath will jump through hoops to make them happy so the narcissist never gives the empath what he wants. The narc just loves seeing the empath jumping through those hoops for him.

I want to learn how to repel narcissists rather than attract them so I'm planning on really working on this change of attitude.

Citation from an episode of the British detective series Lewis. A woman said it to her manipulative ex, when she'd had enough.

My psychiatrist would be very proud of you, Pooped. You are on the right track. He is always helping me with dealing with the narcissists and psychopaths in my life. He says I'm still stuck in that childhood model of having to be pleasing and useful, and of being overly concerned about what others think of me. That's how I was raised, as a Mormon.

I can't rebel enough to break out of that prison--I'm just too nice.

I know what you-all are saying. Mom used to tell me to be the "peace-maker" of the family. I was actually praised for taking abuse! Whenever I fought back to defend myself from my large bully of an older brother, I would be punished. My brother was too big and intimidating to punish. He would threaten to kill himself. So, I was the one who got punished for the altercations.

One thing we all need to know is that narcissists, psychopaths, and sociopaths NEVER "come around." At least 99% of them never change. There's nothing you can do! Also, empaths don't "attract" narcissists. That statement puts blame on the victim. Victims of psychopaths can be strong, intelligent, successful, normal people. Psychopaths are very likely to choose "worthy" victims, with lots of money to steal away, beauty to exploit, even fame to bask in.

My bully brother had a lot of influence on my nephew, who was always an entitled, arrogant jerk--but I was his nice auntie. He went on a mission, to BYU, married a greedy, grasping woman, had kids, they went on missions, he became a bishop's counselor, and stole hundreds of thousand dollars from my parents' estate, my brothers' estates, other relatives, and a family business. He got my father and uncle to invest in a software company he was starting up, which was never even registered, and no one ever saw or heard of, while my nephew traveled all over Europe, and stayed at fancy hotels, and bought a boat, and new cars, etc. He said that he was "retiring early", at 35, and never had a job after that.

It made me feel a whole lot better to sue my nephew for my rightful shares in the family estates, in three different lawsuits! Psychopaths never quit. But--most of them are really stupid. He did a whole lot of things that were blatantly illegal. I got my money back, and my sister's money for her, and nephew had to pay the legal fees, from his father's inheritance. My family would have killed us if we had reported him to the IRS. (I did report him to the County Animal Cruelty one winter, and saved the lives of his horses, who would have frozen to death that winter.) He's still at it--we have a large family and many sources of money--and they think I'm the bad guy for putting my own nephew out of my life. These Cluster B personality types know how to manipulate others, and evoke everyone's pity. They are NOT the kind of people you want to hang out with!

As a small-sized single female, my best defense is to run away, and keep my children away from known criminals. At first, I was hurt that some family members believed my nephew's lies about me. He also said my sister and I LOST all the lawsuits! I warned them, out of concern for them. Over the years, he has told so many lies, and tried so many scams, that they are on to him, now, but I can't get past the fact they didn't take my word for it.

One of two of these creeps can mess up an entire family. IMO, I think they enjoy doing so! We can't let them plow us under!

You sure hit some hot buttons for me on your post. I understand that narcissists like to "project". This means they accuse others of what they do or want to do. My sis is the only one who has tried to get my mother's money out of the trust but she is always telling her kids that I'm the one trying to "steal" her inheritance. She's terrible with money and I told her she better let one of her kids help her when she does get some inheritance. She was indignant and said she didn't plan on letting her kids have any of HER money. What a laugh. She calls our mother's money HER money but has no plan whatsoever of leaving her kids a dime. She tells lies about me, Mom, and her own kids on facebook and it drives me nuts because she reaches so many people that way and we are all so defenseless. The more we defend ourselves the more people believe what she says because she's so calm about slamming us and we get so angry. Even Facebook recommends that when someone uses social media to trash other people it is best to just cut contact with those people. Guess it's rampant. I already know sis will accuse me of taking all the stuff Mom sold or gave away when she went into skilled care so I begged Mom to put a notation in her trust and will about it. She did, thank goodness.

When my mom passes I'll be able to cut ties completely.

Good for you taking legal action against your nephew! Thank goodness my sis and her daughter are too ignorant to try anything like that and my mother is too smart to let them. But they do tell lies to my nephews. I don't know if her boys believe everything she says or not. I refuse to talk about my sister and the niece with anyone unless absolutely necessary.