https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/09/21/brigham-young-universitys/

There is an interesting bar chart of % female enrollment in BYU Law. It has bounced between 31% and 43% since the founding of the school. In 2016 it hit an all-time low of 30%.

Maybe somebody somewhere blew a gasket when they saw that. I'd love to know what exactly happened, but whatever it was, enrollment jumped to 40% in 2017 and 52% in 2018.

Maybe it was just the current political climate regarding women's rights and/or Pu**ygate that made a bunch of undergrad women at BYU think "flippity flipping flip-flip, *somebody* needs to do something about this". The timeline certainly lines up exactly.

Whatever it was, lordy, the times, they are a changing.
::applause::



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2018 04:10PM by Brother Of Jerry.

Interesting.
Do we have any way of finding out how many of these female BYU law grads go on to actual law careers vs. becoming stay-at-home good mormon wives? Just curious...

Utah, surprisingly, has an above average number of women working outside the home. I've got pretty TBM extended family, and I can only think of one woman from the whole lot who didn't work at all outside the home. Some took a few years off when kids were small. Of the generation after me, none stopped working.

I suspect for Mormon women getting graduate and professional degrees, the number that revert to stay-at-home momhood for more than a few years when they have small children is pretty small.

Mormons seem 15 to 30 years behind the rest of the country, but the nationwide changes eventually affect them too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2018 04:42PM by Brother Of Jerry.

Hmm, I'm not sure your family matches the state as a whole...

"Utah has the largest difference between men’s and women’s labor force participation rates at 16.7 percentage points. Maine has the smallest at 5.8 percentage points..."

https://statusofwomendata.org/earnings-and-the-gender-wage-gap/womens-labor-force-participation/

"According to demographics given by the Utah Department of Workforce Services, 59 percent of married women with kids are in the state’s labor force, compared to 70 percent nationally."

https://universe.byu.edu/2013/07/29/mother-or-breadwinner-utah-women-who-work-far-below-national-average/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2018 05:00PM by ificouldhietokolob.

Oh darn, now I'm going to have to look for some numbers. I'm sure there's a long string of adjectives qualifying whatever stat I read. But I did read it. Somewhere. :-/

ETA: OK, found some stats.
https://jobs.utah.gov/wi/data/library/laborforce/womeninwf.html
From the site: Many are surprised to learn that a higher percentage of Utah women participate in the labor force than the national average.

There is a large boatload of statistics, and the drop-down has selections for USA, Utah, and individual counties. I found most interesting the variations in percentage of college degrees between counties.

USA women participating in labor force: 59%
Utah women " " " : 60%

Average pay for women in Utah is about $4K below national average for women. No shock there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2018 08:32PM by Brother Of Jerry.

Thanks, BoJ.
The difference in numbers looks like it comes from a difference in methodology.
The ones that count only women working "full time" show Utah has a lower than average rate. Which shouldn't surprise anyone.
The ones that count any "participation in the workforce" show a slightly higher than average rate -- 'cause they also counted women who are working part-time from home (likely doing some mormon-related MLM thing). Which, again, shouldn't surprise anyone.

It's more acceptable in Utah/Mormon culture to do a little side work from home for women than to work outside the home full time. And that's reflected in the numbers.

FWIW...my work had a female engineering intern from BYU. She told her mentor, another woman engineer at my work, that her GOAL...was to meet a RM, get married, have kids and be a SAHM..

If I was a manager (and I couldn't be because of the way I would think in these situations), I would ask myself:

How much money is being spent and potentially wasted on her (intern's) engineering education?

Why should we (my company), spend time, resources, people, money on training and working w/someone, who may have an engineering degree, but has no goals of being an engineer?

Why (as a manager) would I want to hire a woman who perpetuates the sterotype of women who go to and graduate from BYU?


As you can see, my questions are not PC, but are practical in the grand scheme of things of who we should bring in as the best candidates for my work. We have some very smart women ..and men at my work, so bringing in someone who clearly does not have the same or similar goals, doesn't make sense.

There would be nothing illegal or even wrong about not hiring someone who self admitted that they have no no real interest in or passion for their profession.

While there'd be nothing illegal about it, there are professions that by their very nature require a certain amount of passion...

SETI springs to mind... They're not going to knowingly hire someone who isn't interested in hearing from an extra-solar source.

We have several potential SETI hires right here on RfM.

nonmo_1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As you can see, my questions are not PC...

You might consider, though, that your questions have less to do with hiring "women" in the generic sense, and more to do with hiring this one specific woman, who clearly had no long-term interest in a career. The problem is with that particular woman, not all women.

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Interesting.
> Do we have any way of finding out how many of
> these female BYU law grads go on to actual law
> careers vs. becoming stay-at-home good mormon
> wives? Just curious...

Every ABA accredited law school is required to disclose certain information about demographics and employment outcomes. Here is BYU Law's: https://law.byu.edu/aba-required-disclosures/employment-outcomes/

Thanks.
But as that information isn't broken down by gender, it doesn't really answer my question. It is interesting, though.

Go up one page.

https://law.byu.edu/aba-required-disclosures/

There are lots of other disclosures, including admissions, enrollment, graduation, and attrition data, that are broken down demographically.

Thanks again, but though there was ethnic data there, I couldn't find anything broken down by gender in any of the reports.

Gender is there. Ethnic demographics are broken out by "M" (men), "W" (women), and "O" (other).

For more data, try this site:

http://abarequireddisclosures.org/MainHome.aspx

Click on 509 Required Disclosures. Select the year 2016 Select the school.

Save this file, then return to the link above and select Employment Outcomes. Find the file for BYU's 2017 graduates.

Go back to the 509 required disclosures file and compare the 2016 3L data to the class of 2017 employment outcomes. This is as close as I can get you.

...God save us from the "Lawyers." Even the BoM describes it in Alma.....no, not an endorsement or validation, but the damn volume of new lawyers are killing us!


14 Now it was those men who sought to destroy them, who were lawyers, who were hired or appointed by the people to administer the law at their times of trials, or at the trials of the crimes of the people before the judges.

15 Now these lawyers were learned in all the arts and cunning of the people; and this was to enable them that they might be skillful in their profession.

...release the haters, cause' I hate lawyers....sorry.

Concerned Citizen 2.0 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...release the haters, cause' I hate
> lawyers....sorry.


Thank you for sharing your opinion. Speaking for myself, I don't really care if you hate me. :)

According to the script of Jurassic Park, dinosaurs love you. ;-)

...last couple cases I was involved in, I did pro se/pro per. Won both suits. My attorneys prior would not release the pertinent evidence...I did. It's not about you.

Good. I'm glad that more Mormon women are getting professional qualifications. It is really, really difficult to tell a woman that she is "less than" when she knows that she can survive in a competitive work environment and earn a good living.

Typical Trib double-standards:

52% law students are men: boo, hiss, sexism patriarchy etc

52% law students are women: empowered liberated women etc

now watch: female lawyers will work fewer hours than male lawyers, but complain they don't get paid as much as the men.

straight men are the majority of suicides, but you sure wouldn't know that from all the coverage they give to LGBTQABCDEFG suicides...

Such a big chip on such little shoulders. Must be tough dragging that much resentment around.

My grandmother was a married mother of four children before she was able to vote in this, the land of the free and the home of the brave.

I was an adult (just barely) when the Supreme Court guaranteed women the right to be allowed to get prescription contraceptives (Griswold v Connecticut, 1965)

One of the first women ever to enter Columbia Law School is still working, and working very hard, thank you very much. Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

I was well into adulthood before women could get a credit card in their own name without a male co-signer.

And this week Orrin Hatch has shown that he hasn't improved one iota from his appalling treatment of Sonia Johnson in Senate hearings in 1978, and his treatment of Anita Hill in 1991. Here we are in 2018 listening to third verse, same as the first.

Women still have a long way to go, but they have, in fact, come a long way, baby, if I may use the old Virginia Slims tag line.



Straight men are the majority of suicides? They are between 90% and 97% of the male population, depending on whose stats you accept. Are they more than that percentage of the suicides? I await further light and knowledge.

Maybe they're preparing for "do it yourself" divorces?

It doesn’t say they’re LDS women. BYU could just be a good law school for the money.

Or maybe the Mollies are taking care of stay-at-home RMs these days. Being an LDS woman means scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I can only hope that this portends that as the church continues its long, slow transformation into a real estate company, there will be more women in its boardrooms.

I saw this yesterday in the Standard, but in that version of the article it said that the women chose this field because of their desire to help immigrants and families. I find this horrifying. Let woman be in charge and the barbarians will storm the gate. We are becoming more pc but less safe.

Your misogyny is ill-informed.

The racism is ill-informed too. Immigrants have lower than average crime rates. Refugees, a particular subclass of immigrants, have a higher percentage of college degrees than the general US population. Refugees from places like Burma and Afghanistan and DR Congo are often people of some means and education, which is how they managed to get out of their country in the first place.

And yeah, lawyers helping immigrants and families. Oh, the horror.