So this is my first time here–raised by great parents who believed in the church but were never checklist type folks.I was born with a bit of a wild streak by Mormon standards–felt really guilty for indiscretions during high school-- of course the same stuff most high school kids did.

In any case, I come home from my diligent mission and feel guilt still. No more sin-- but never felt OK. In the setting of my natural tendency to self critique as well as my deeply rooted lack of self-confidence, looking back I can see why I felt bad often.

NOTE-- i am no slacker and was student body president, byu grad and top 10 med school grad and now 10+ years of md and fellowship. loved by all except that i disapoint my wife

My wife-- now of over 25 years- was by all accounts a perfect mormon woman-- completely faithful, never any doubt about the truthiness of the church (apologies to Colbert).

Looking back, i finally felt some relief of the guilt because in my mind, i thought "if SHE got an answer to prayer to marry me, maybe GOD has forgiven me??" I felt good for ~ 8 years but the faith started to unravel the more I met good people from all religions or walks of life who had exactly similar stories about KNOWING their church / religion / viewpoint was 100% TRUE! this happens all over

Now-- my oldest is a in college mode- not sure about all the historical discrepancies and he can see how people naturally take any event to confirm their belief (ie you will be healed, IF you have faith. if not healed however, it wasn't God's will. Kind of like 'heads I win, tails you lose')

So-- my wife has been great to try to show him she loves him and supports him. I've been more open to him about my doubts.

The basic conundrum is this-- the fact is, I've never gotten "THE ANSWER" and know that I never will. My wife, deep down, believes this is due to my own negligence or sin or sloth. I feel sh##ty most of the time and now this complicates things because when I'm depressed it is hard to be reasonable with my own self!

two weeks ago we had the deepest conversation yet-- i told her the historical facts dont add up and that this was most likely BS-- she cried, i feel horrible. i never wanted to be "that guy" who leaves the church and abandons his benson scholarship wife and many children

I feel hopeless-- she'll never ever leave the church-- and will never think that the WICKED stuff I want to do (golf on sundays, watch football on sundays, skip BOM reading with my family because it feels like i'm teaching them from a Santa CLaus equivalent book) is OK because it goes against the brethren. Our relationship seems to be on a path that will never allow for a richness we've had in the past. we get along great and are a good team, so to speak. i respect her thoughts and she mine. we're both good people

so-- if you read this and can refer me to a specific spot to find ways to heal-- lemme know.

Thanks!

at teh same time-- giving it all up leaves a huge hole in me where I used to get benefit from spirituality-- i used to try to be a better guy-- now IDGAF. feels bad



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2018 09:08PM by catch22.

1st; Don't feel sorry for yourself. You are just one of thousands fooled by an ideology........it could have been anything.

2nd; Get up, move around, have a drink and say "F' it!" I'm not going to played anymore!

3rd; You take the lead, don't back down. "Others can remain, but I'm breaking free!"


...an old saying.

"Free your mind, and your ass will follow."

There are great people here but it takes time. Lots of time. Think of it this way, you didn't end up where you are now overnight and it will take a lot of time to find your feet again. This is a traumatic thing. You have a lot invested. LDSInc has had many years to shape you. This is a marathon, not a sprint. It is also ok to take a vacation from the whole issue when it becomes too overwhelming. Baby steps are good. More than anything else - BE KIND TO YOURSELF!

Susan is spot on. Take your time brutha! As your wife sees your goodness and the doubts create cracks, just smile and let the cracks in her shelf take over. Just wait...

HH =)

...see, this is an issue that seems to consume Mormons. That God ONLY answers the prayers of Mormons. If you have any relationship with God, or an alternative Divinity, then, common sense would say NO! ALL can can have access to God's ear and his blessings. There is no monopoly to Mormons as to God's ear. A religious falsehood on it's face.



Looking back, i finally felt some relief of the guilt because in my mind, i thought "if SHE got an answer to prayer to marry me, maybe GOD has (heard her prayers)...

"What about your prayers?"

I’m going to be serious here. My situation is somewhat similar except I was a convert, and an introvert in college. I NEVER made the dean’s list but have two degrees from the Y.

Resumes will never impress a TBM. My wife, and it’s sounds like your wife, is caught in a cult. My wife continually waits for something bad to happen to me because, “You’re a covenant breaker,” a line she picked up from Gordo “The Salamander” Hinckley. Fuck him!

You have one simple question—as do I—is it worth it to stay in the marriage? Better yet, would I be happier divorced? I can honestly say, no.

Big brohugs, and welcome to the Board. The Boner.

Regarding covenant breakers, those covenants are invalid even by "Mormon" standards. They were offered with clear intent to deceive and control. Therefore, according to Section 121, those who administer the covenants actually lost their priesthood long before.

There may be valid moral principles behind some of the covenants, but Kimball/Tanner/Hinckley/Monson/Nelson and their blind followers were never qualified to judge matters of morality.

I'm sad to say we get posts like yours fairly often.

My situation was very similar to yours.
It took me a LONG time to catch on.

My husband was busy with his practice trying to play along and slowly educate me.

Here is a thread you might find interesting.

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2043767,2043767#msg-2043767


This could go many ways. Take your time. Your wife has to slowly come to terms with someone questioning her world view.


Will she simmer with passive aggressiveness?
will she keep blaming herself?
Will she fall out of love with you (because it was church-dependent)?
Will she roll with it and figure God will sort it out because you are a good person?
Will she buy a vowel and see though it herself at some point?

Whatever you do and whatever happens, know it is not your fault for being honest. It's not your fault you woke up to the nonsense. It's hard to go through life with someone in a faith bubble but it is possible. At some point she might recognize how lucky she is that she married you. She might not be able deal with it. Time will tell.

There is no right way to deal with this. Once you see, you can't un-see.

Good luck! I hope your wife is a reader!

Thanks everyone. It is of benefit for me to have time to think about this and write it out.

Very heartening to hear i'm not the only one (which I knew already). My shrink had the name for why this helps, and indeed he was right.

I like the idea of both of us giving up on changing each others' minds.

At first glance, "aglesnark gibblets baz gonga wiz eegle fark obnorkem Joseph Smith nizzfizz on unga" looked like pure gibberish, but i was delighted to see that in fact the vowels and consonants were thoughtfully placed to allow for pronunciation

I am ok with ambiguity. nobody has the answer I think-- the most enlightened minds all seem to be in the same ballpark (kindness to others, service, hard work, a power in the universe that connects us all)

yeah i sounded like a DB with the resume stuff --my apologies. the only valid thing i was saying is that i used to REPEL unhappiness-- and I feel like the church has sucked it out of me

i think some people are wired to just absolutely LOVE the idea of "i know more than you, i am more elect than you" like a condescending parent patting a child on the head

ok wife in room. peace out napoleon. i've probably been chatting with babes on line, all day

catch22 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks everyone. It is of benefit for me to have
> time to think about this and write it out.

Glad it helps. But there must have been a reason to make it public?

> Very heartening to hear i'm not the only one
> (which I knew already). My shrink had the name
> for why this helps, and indeed he was right.

Glad your shrink helps?

> I like the idea of both of us giving up on
> changing each others' minds.

Who are the others?

> I am ok with ambiguity. nobody has the answer I
> think-- the most enlightened minds all seem to be
> in the same ballpark (kindness to others, service,
> hard work, a power in the universe that connects
> us all)

Ok.

> yeah i sounded like a DB with the resume stuff
> --my apologies. the only valid thing i was
> saying is that i used to REPEL unhappiness-- and I
> feel like the church has sucked it out of me

Sorry, I don't understand this.

> i think some people are wired to just absolutely
> LOVE the idea of "i know more than you, i am more
> elect than you" like a condescending parent
> patting a child on the head

I agree. But I don't believe in freewill as anything more than philosophical construct derived from our sense of being able to act independently.

> ok wife in room. peace out napoleon. i've
> probably been chatting with babes on line, all day

LOL!

thank you

I've read your story at least a hundred times here on RfM. You are not the one who is slothful, guilty, or in any way deficient.

It's the mormon church which has done this to you and your family.

Take heart. Many here have felt as you feel. They've survived and prospered. That means you can do it too.

Initially it leaves a huge gaping hole in most of us.

It left a dark void in me so deep that I thought it would devour my very being.

I worked for church office in a senior management position and I lost everything that was near and dear to me and I was racked with self blame and guilt.

And yet the very principle that you have to avoid truth to stay a member was far more destructive.

Now 20 years later my life is absolute bliss by comparison -warts and all- as the scales have fallen off and indeed the truth, no mater how painful, will set you free.

But it is also wise to remember those that we love and care for are victims also so be gentle and kind.

Congratulations on discovering the truth. Now put the blinders back on and go apologize to your wife. Tell her that you will work out your doubts with the bishop.
It sounds like you have the model Mormon life... so why are you rocking the boat? Ditch the guilt because Joe Smith was a phony and the church (like all others, are completely made up), but don't let on to others. If you really love your kids, swear them to secrecy and help them escape.
Your spouse will never understand why you want to leave, when she has her Stepford wife lifestyle. She has a doctor husband and eternal life... she wants to stay on top of the world.
Don't feel guilty for internet porn, and don't tell your spouse as it is not her business. Do what all the other morons around you are doing and just lie that you believe it all, but secretly do whatever you want. Help your kids in secret to break free, but you are sentenced to life in church prison.
Good luck to you!

Also, set up a fake scholarship for your kids, that they can only get by going directly to university (it doesn't pay for BYU). Make sure your kids don't go on a mission and that they attend a secular school. Girlfriends and boyfriends will keep your kids from ever going back.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2018 10:07PM by chipace.

Be sure that no matter what you believe, enjoy single malt scotch and good craft beer. If you leave Earth without having a couple of those with good friends, you have truly pissed your life away.
Also, I find that cursing at my parents for being ignorant dumbasses for pressuring me to stay in a cult, helps. Not to their face, but often when I am driving alone. Then curse yourself for not realizing the great lie at a younger age... you really aren't that smart because you are presently in church prison.

I may be ugly and have a low IQ, but I married a nevermo and never set foot in a church since the birth of my first child. Just remember me when you sit in Sacrament meeting listening to mindless cult babble.
Remember stinky chipace.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2018 11:11PM by chipace.

Except for your profession we have a very similar story. I have not figured out a way to live a normal life without making my wife unhappy about church. It seems like the best I can manage is a weak version of detente. However life outside church still has many great moments, but there will always be something that is not quite right.

The only thing that I could suggest is to be happy with life regardless of your circumstances. I find that if I continue to be happy, loving, supportive and honest about what I think, the awkwardness is kept to a minimum. There are simply some things in life about which we may never agree, but that is ok.

One of the tricks that the church plays on us is to plant the idea that we must always be in agreement to be unified. In fact we can have meaningful and happy relationships with people and not agree about big things. Also, the church makes us feel responsible for the happiness of others. Again, I try not to be unkind to others, but each person in my life owns his or her own happiness.

Good luck.

>>The basic conundrum is this-- the fact is, I've never gotten "THE ANSWER" and know that I never will.

It took me a very long time to become comfortable with ambiguity -- that I didn't have all the answers and likely never would. And that is okay.

People got along just fine for thousands of years before Mormonism came along. And they will continue to get along just fine long after Mormonism fades away -- as it will. The ancient Roman gods have faded away, and they were a part of one of the most fearsome empires this planet has ever seen. And the Roman gods were a far livelier and more interesting bunch than the relatively weak and ineffectual Mormon god.

Your wife is in the power of that myth. She needs the myth, and the keepers of the myth badly need her to believe it. The best that you can do is to insist on appropriate boundaries and mutual respect. You can respect her right to believe, but likewise, she needs to respect your right not to believe. It is even written into Mormonism's 11th Article of Faith.

Regarding boundaries, she doesn't get to do any name-calling. Mormons are big on name-calling, often slurring those who leave. According to Mormons, people leave the church because they are lazy, offended, or wanting to sin. Why is that? Why can't decent people simply disagree with the church? Don't accept any verbiage that puts you down.

Good luck on your journey. The members of this board bring many different experiences and viewpoints. Perhaps some of those viewpoints will resonate with you. We hope you will continue to share some time with us.

There's a way out. It's just not PAINLESS.

You "used to be called Mormons" feel a tremendous amount of guilt because you are given the unattainable command to be "perfect". Well that is just not possible for ANY human. So of course you are going to feel guilt when you can't live up to the impossible.

Mormonism are wrong but Jesus is right, how about during family time reading the regular bible instead of BOM and maybe over time she will see that. I mean Mormons do read and believe the regular bible right? If you even tried a non Mormon church you would see that there is a big difference. There is no guilt trip, we are all in the same boat, we all struggle from time to time. We mess up but get back up and try again. That could be a lifetime, but it is ok to do that. Can you do that as a ??? whatever you are called now, I don't feel like typing that much.

I know many on here are atheist, but really the non cult Jesus is a walk in the park!

Your TBM wife, it would seem, is the type who relies on feelings as the ultimate decider of what is and isn't "truth".

If I had to guess, no amount of facts and logic will persuade her to come around to your way of thinking. (You know her better, so if you believe that she is inclined toward putting high priority on facts and logic, I may be going off on an irrelevant tangent.)

That being the case, all of your words about the facts (peepstones, polygamy before polygamy was "authorized," false prophecies, obvious 19th century explanations for the contents of the Book of Mormon, etc.) will just sound like some unintelligible gibberish to her -- a person who seeks to "know" truth based solely on how things make her feel.

You'll be thinking that you're making complete sense and she'll be thinking: "This feels so wrong. This is frightening. My testimony feels so profoundly wonderful and affirming and this stuff coming from him is so dark and unsettling."

Your actual words to her may as well be: "Baglesnark gibblets baz gonga wiz eegle fark obnorkem Joseph Smith nizzfizz on unga." The only thing that will get through is how the words make her feel.

In the couples I've seen that have made it work, the non-believer gave up trying to convert the believer and vice-versa.

The non-believer was cheerfully supportive of the believer in his/her activities, without pretending to be a believer and without participating extensively in the religious aspects. Meanwhile, the believer stopped belittling, nagging and scowling at the non-believer and cheerfully respected the non-believer and his/her individual path.

Probably the key ingredient is that they genuinely loved each other and didn't see a need to separate or be at war, despite the differences regarding the church.

Hope it will work out for you.

thanks for this-- i do feel hope that our love > church and my wife is great otherwise

"Baglesnark gibblets baz gonga wiz eegle fark obnorkem Joseph Smith nizzfizz on unga."

Okay, I am totally stealing this for my personal use. I have it saved away with a fill-in-the-blank where you have Joseph Smith. I am going to use this wonderful sentence to reframe for myself annoyances and calamities that arise if not daily, often enough.

The secret of my success in your situation was when the kids reached college age and said f__K this, it's crap. Agree to disagree and establish boundaries that she is not going to recruit bishops, parents, others to re-convert you or to use as a passive aggressive source of force on you. You need to find ways to help her see the world as it is and leave on her own accord as if it was HER idea and not yours.

Personally I agree playing golf is an abomination, find something she loves to do and start doing it on Sundays. Cook the frog slowly.

I agree.


There might need to be some ground rules.

When the situation involves the wife running to the bishop to talk in private about her husband, that's not acceptable. The response is asking the wife how she would feel if you said, "I'm calling Sister So-n-so to tell her my concerns about you."

When the situation involves the wife going to church to get a dose of failure and disappointment each week because her husband doesn't believe, that's not acceptable. I think this is why some husbands attend to protect her from feeling "less than." That family forever hostage in the members only CK BS is toxic.

Not everyone is ready to face not having answers we seek. Not everyone is able to create their own purpose and meaning to make this precious life the best it can be.

For me, joy comes from learning- no matter where it takes me.

frog temperature will be raised as slowly as possible -- good idea

what does TSCC mean?

An acronym used by some here for the phrase “The so-called church”. A little snarky, in my opinion, so I wouldn’t recommend using it in discussions with your wife..obviously.

Don’t say things that make her cry.if she cries, you’re pushing too far. I think it’s best to let her believe what she wants until she asks. Study and learn your stuff so you’re ready if that happens. No arguments. No one wins, even the winner.

Why make a snarky comment about golf? You must be lousy at it.

IF you feel trapped with in the MORmON cult, then it is because that is exactly what your MORmON captors intended.

"... born with a bit of a wild streak"
(Because 'Mormonism')

So was I [that's my excuse]

J.S., Jr. probably had that "problem"

What can we do about this?
These streaks, not the wildness!

First of all, you've come to the right place. People here care about you and are willing to listen - even if you just need a place to vent how terrible the church is.

Second of all, you aren't destined to leave your family just because you don't believe in the church anymore. Some people here have decided that the best course of action for them is just to go through the motions in order to keep their families together. I'm not saying this is what you have to do, but you might feel that it's the best way forward for you right now.

Based on what you've said, it sounds like your wife is more rational and willing to listen than most. When you talk about your issues with the church with her, make sure to let her know that in your eyes nothing has changed between the two of you and your issues aren't meant to be an attack on her. I know it sounds like something that should be assumed, but sometimes Mormons take it very personally when people disagree with them.

You need to remember that you aren't the problem - the church is the problem. It's a sham religion that has tricked its faithful members to do things and treat people in a way they probably wouldn't otherwise. Once the goggles come off, the feelings of guilt go away. Sacrament meeting becomes a joke. Interactions with more hardcore members become funny stories for this board. Never feel like you are in it alone. It doesn't sound like your wife is distancing herself from you, she probably just needs time to process everything you've told her. I know it can be heard, especially for someone who struggles with feelings of guilt, but try to stay optimistic. Approach your marriage like you and your wife are dating again. Send her flowers, be romantic, remind her that you are still the person she fell in love with, even if you are struggling with the church right now. Once she sees that the church's line about "apostates" becoming bitter, nasty people is completely false, she might be willing to talk more.

Situations like yours are difficult, and since I left Mormonism before getting married--I can only imagine how to approach it.

For all our relationships during this situation I think it is important to keep in mind that we are only responsible for our own actions--not the reactions of our loved ones. This doesn't mean that we have to set about needlessly provoking them. However, if others choose to emotionally explode or veto you out of their lives that is their decision--not yours.

You did not make Joseph Smith invent these stories or abuse his spiritual authority to take on new wives. You did not suppress history about the founding of Mormonism. You didn't cause the DNA research to show Native Americans are descendants of Asian migrants, who came to America over 10,000 years ago--way before Lehi and crew would have arrived. You did not continue to lie to LDS members about a variety of subjects and prophesy incorrectly over and over. None of that is your fault. It is just the way things are.

How to approach our family members about these issues was the most difficult part of my journey exiting Mormonism. I made mistakes--most people do. That's okay. You might get some things wrong, but sometimes staying in that in between space of being in the LDS Church and not believing in it is mentally and emotionally taxing. It's something that is hard to sustain and remain sane.

You wrote about feeling guilty and I agree that you may possibly deserve to feel guilty, but just about one thing.

Are you a mentor/guide of Joseph Smith in the 1820's who forced him to make up this silly religion because he didn't want to be a farmer? If yes then please feel guilty and shame on you old man as you, a man over 200 years old, disgust me.

However if you are not that person then DO NOT FEEL GUILTY for the whole nonsense of Mormonism that keeps sheep in line with guilt trips. ITS NOT YOUR FAULT.

I think the Brethren, including Nelson/Oaks, are victims just as much as the rest of us. However in their case they have no excuse for their continued deceitfulness. That's why people like me shall hold them accountable to be completely honest with all the members and the world. When they fall short then we'll give them hell. They need to do much more to encourage people to learn all they can on the honest truth about everything and let the chips fall where they may.

You are still reeling from the mormon guilt trip.
Notice how TSCC is attempting to cause a rift in your family and be prepared to deal with it.

You too have certain inalienable rights in the marriage.
One of them is the right to be yourself.
Growth is inevitable and you simply outgrew this church.

Morg leadership wants members who obey,give free work,and hand over $ tithes.
Of course they try to hold on to people who are willing to do this.
But you would be smart not to let the wife drag you into into endless discussions with local church leaders.

You and your wife will just have to get to the point where you agree to disagree.
She can go to church and you can go golfing,nothing wrong with that.

If she threatens divorce invite her to take a good look at the divorced women in church, she probably won't want to live like that.

Best to you.

Elyse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If she threatens divorce invite her to take a good
> look at the divorced women in church, she probably
> won't want to live like that.

If he stops going to church with her she will be a Mormon widow. Divorcees at least have the hope of Celestial Marriage in this life.

It will be a long & lonely life for her if she dumps her otherwise good and long term husband.

But some women, you just can't them to think logically when it comes to Mormonism.
Argh.

But you need to consider the person. My wife isn't okay with being a Mormon widow and worse than a divorcee. She does it because she believes and takes all the social repercussions because of those beliefs.

You say, "...giving it all up leaves a huge hole in me where I used to get benefit from spirituality-- i used to try to be a better guy-- now IDGAF." I get that you are stressed now and possibly feeling bitter. However, if you have cared up to now in your life about being a good person that is not going to change just because you leave a church. Your goodness is innate in you and in most human beings most of the time. It doesn't, or shouldn't take encouragements, promises or threats from a church to make people behave well. If you really need promises and threats to keep you "good" then you are not much of a person - which I don't believe for a minute!

You can celebrate Christmas even if you don’t believe in Santa. I’ll admit it’s a little hard to take the head elf seriously.

I understand completely where you are at. I am no therapist but I know here in Utah it is COMPLETELY VITAL that we have therapists that specialize in leaving the church (if someone can tell me the correct label for such type of therapist please tell me...I just got home from work and I am tired/lazy). You may benefit greatly in having someone help in your journey of deprogramming. A trained therapist can assist you at a pace you are comfortable and possibly relieve some of the guilt traps you struggle with.

As far as your wife, she will have stages of grief from her perceived loss just as you do. A good therapist will help you with that as well. Good luck -I love all of the responses on this post and I thank you for posting it as I needed it greatly today.

First, forget the advice to consume alcohol. That’s another cult.

Those of us who feel guilt have a certain personality. Such personality also allows us to more easy pay see reality. And also we’re better at learning in school generally, and so many end up in medicine.


I was listening to a show about higher suicide rates in n dentists, physicians, etc.


Most assume it is stress of the work, but authors discussed that to become a doctor you need to be a perfectionist to do the work. So the professions attract a personality more prone to suicide.

Anyway, you are seeing reality. You will notice that marriage is also a big scam. Marriage is not about love and making you happy, it is about getting stuff from you. In particular, you offer status and money.

To maintain that, there is threat of divorce. Love by force.

She probably actually loves her kids. Ask her if she would divorce her kids if they quit church.

As for church, no need to prove it wrong. Even if true, I wouldn’t want to go to CK.

You should be free to follow your path. Tell her you want to experience God’s creations, spend time with family, and be happy. Which doesn’t leave time for sitting in church.

End of discussion. Let her throw a fit like a 2 year old and manipulate you. If threatens divorce, show her the front door.

Free Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> End of discussion. Let her throw a fit like a 2
> year old and manipulate you. If threatens
> divorce, show her the front door.

Treat another adult as a child seems like terrible advice.

Free Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>First, forget the advice to consume alcohol.

Misery loves company. We are not recommending him to become a drunk, just to sample what has been off-limits his whole life. Having a drink or two with good friends can be a wonderful experience. In these my later days I almost put it above the nasty.