I'm wondering if a certain member of the Q15 could be seen as a driving force for members, especially those of the LGBTQ community to leave the So-Called-Church. He is a hateful, bigoted man, and in no way "Christ Like", if you choose to believe such a person exists, and I like to think that an insider is helping the cause push people away from that corporation.

HOWEVER, his views are very hurtful, and are causing the members of the LGBTQ members to feel unloved, unworthy, and suicidal. I've seen reports that Suicide Help Lines have skyrocketed since the last General conference. Being a member of the LGBTQ, I can understand how they must feel, and quite frankly, when I heard that he was called, it sent me racing for my Xanax.

What do you think?

Previously, I didn't buy into the thought - idea of "necessary evil";

Oaks might be an exception however...

Evil-yes. Necessary-No.

StillAnon Wrote:
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> Evil-yes. Necessary-No.

That.

IF I were to give the GAs, Oaks, the 'benefit of the doubt; (I'M NOT!) it could be accurately said that they don't wish to be caught up in individual member problems, many of which don't have any reasonable solution.

Doing so, seeing these problems, - some caused by church mistakes, errors, & some caused by 'unrighteous dominion, PH leaders using their so-called PH as a club, others by members (spouses, parents) using 'gospel' as a Wedge between family members (my case).. What Would they do?

He's an outspoken critic of all the church stands *against.*

So in that sense, yes, he's a necessary evil as its mouthpiece.

Isn't he next in progression to being the next president of TSCC?

There is nothing set in stone in the LDS church. Even when Joseph Smith was prophet things changed all the time. The church has always been changing and if their current stance on LGBTQ hurts the church in a big way they will change things.

Oaks is just an old dweeb.

I believe Oaks has been running the church during the Monson years, he has his operatives in key executive positions in the church that control money and policy. Nelson may be the President but Oaks has hundreds and hundreds of his ex BYU minions and Lawyers in the organization, quoroms of 70s, law and finance firms that support the church and spin off companies that hold the church's real wealth.

Hedning-

so you're suggesting Oaks is doing Shadow Leadership, with Nelson a PR icon - showpiece...(?)

I notice that when Nelson talks to the media off the cuff, Oaks corrects him.

Church leaders claim to function by sanction of discernment / inspiration, not by training or education; For the GAs, that slips to (what they call) revelation, they're merely a conduit for HFs will...

What would happen if a leader had to overturn a decision or action that a Bp or SP or MP staunchly claimed was decided by discernment / inspiration?

a soured underling who (GASP) made a 'wrong' decision or action reversed or overturned Might voice that experience to others, how would the explanation then go?

IOW, tscc has worked themselves into a 'can do no wrong' corner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2018 06:40PM by GNPE.

Oaks is more evil than he is necessary.

Oaks is the laxative that keeps the BS from congealing and plugging up the system. Whether that is necessary or even a good idea is a matter of some debate. He is messing up the neighborhood.

In my opinion, Oaks being necessary is like saying Hitler was necessary for solving overpopulation.

I was listening to people talk about conference. They commented on how Oaks' talks sound like a legal brief. Then they gush on how Nelson is so compassionate. If you notice, no one really hears from Uchtdorf anymore. Maybe a talk here and there, nothing like before Nelson. I am wondering if he has chosen the people around him to make himself look better and has push anyone who could outshine him to the back.

"Good cop/bad cop" is a great tool. Oaks is for sure the bad cop in the routine. So necessary evil he is. I would say so because how else you going to make Russ look good? Especially with Wendy/Edgar Bergen sitting next to him. The darker the night, the brighter the moon.

When you have no empathy, no soul, then it comes naturally, so, Oaks would be evil even if it weren't a valuable asset to the Gerontocracy. It's his talent.

levantis Wrote:
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> Being a member
> of the LGBTQ, I can understand how they must feel,
> and quite frankly, when I heard that he was
> called, it sent me racing for my Xanax.
>
> What do you think?

Sincere question: what is it like to live according to what others do/don't do, say/don't say? To believe that another human causes suicidal feelings? To need acceptance and love from presumably, everyone, even those one has not met (unless you've met and engaged with Dallin Oaks), to think the same way...or else (anxiety, stress, hurt feelings, want to die)?

Throughout human history, there are a lot of baddies. Currently, there are some, too. Sometimes they are in our inner circle of family even.

What is it like when they control how you feel? I assume you didn't really need Xanax to handle a fact in the church (Dallin's calling). However, it does sound like your emotional well being, or lack thereof, is focused on what the church does/does not do.

Is that difficult? I imagine it is very hard going and you must be panicked, and must stay ear to the ground of every move of the church to evaluate your happiness (or again, lack thereof). Do some GA decisions affect your mental health positively, or is that not possible? How much do you need (not want) the church to change according to your beliefs?

^Excellent & thoughtful post^

On the contrary; I thought it was meanspirited, and disregarded a major component of this board: the idea that many of us are in varying stages of recovery from Mormonism, and thus the actions of the Mormon church and it’s leaders have emotional impacts in our lives.

It’s not a weakness to admit or state that it’s hard to know that an evil man has moved farther up the path to ultimate power in the TSCC, or discover that it’s possible he has held discrete power and control for sometime now. Especially when this person espouses such unchristian- nay, inhuman and amoral- ideas and thoughts about the LGBT community.

Everyone here knows the power Mormonism has wielded in our life, or in some cases continues to wield, for various reasons. It doesn’t make any of us bad or weak or fragile. It hurts me to know my parents have a low opinion of my ethics and moral compass because I’ve ‘lived so long without the influence of the Spirit’. It’ll probably always hurt a little.

I don’t Have a problem admitting it and how they connect that belief in me with their unassailable belief in the Mormon church and the Gerontocracy that controls the church and thus ultimately influences their decisions, opinions, and beliefs in all things.

It sucks, but it’s the truth.

+100000

"meanspirited, and disregarded a major component of this board"

Exactly.

I wanted to respond but so much of what carameldreams wrote is rather unclear, ambiguous, and so I wasn't sure what to say. Nice to know someone saw what I saw, midwestanon, and articulated such a well stated response.

When I was a child, I was diagnosed with ADHD and Tourettes Syndrome. Just last year I was diagnosed with PTSD due to traumatic experiences when I was about 8. Anybody knows that when you're young, if you're different, you're going to be a prime target to be made fun of, so I told no one.

When I was in High School back in the late '90's, I was still questioning, but I was lucky enough to be completely straight acting; but I had a low self-esteem almost all of my life, so there was no way in hell that I was going to let anybody know about my feelings with all of the stories I'd heard about violence against Homosexuals.

To be honest, trying to be a good Mormon, and being told that Homosexuality is a sin, you will probably never know the utter despair knowing that try as you might, you're never good enough to get rid of it. This evil thing that was a CHOICE, but you can be a normal person by following the teachings of the profits.

Eventually, I just stopped trying.

My Mother is a very toxic, judgmental TBM. I was sitting next to her one day a few years ago and she said offhandedly how "gays are so evil". Thanks, Mom. I'm trying my best, was the only response I could think to myself. To be quite frank, it's a miracle, if you believe in such things, that I'm still alive. That woman has caused me to become suicidal just for being toxic. I learned the hard way to never go to her when you're depressed or feeling suicidal.

I started questioning the Church about 2 years ago. Thanks to my therapist, I found out about Dallin H. Oaks and his methods of trying to cure Gays during his leadership at BYU.
I have never met him, and he has never affected me directly or indirectly, but just knowing that he has hurt so many people, and is tearing families apart is a trigger for my anxiety.

And yes, I had an immediate panic attack when I found out that horrid, mean THING was called to be in the presidency. I took some Xanax and cried myself to sleep.

Even though I'm comfortable with my sexuality, only about 6 people know that I'm gay. If certain people found out I honestly don't think I'll survive the fallout.

I cry every day for the wrongs that ChurchCo did to myself & family, the rest of fam is hooked into all the wrong actions & lack of respect for basic kindness.

Why can't ChurchCo members & leaders see their way out of the patterns they cling to?

Because they're Mormons, that's why.

Thank you Levantis. Beautifully expressed and important. There is no way for anyone to know 100% exactly what we have been through. Especially the panic and terror felt as our parents, our church leaders, and society in general when I was young, made sure everyone knew how evil and disgusting us gay people were. Of course it can bring on a panic attack, a deep depression, and so much more. Of course Oaks, SWK, BKP, et al are the impetus for so much harm. They can be triggers.

It is a long windy road from being a terrified gay Mormon kid affected by those selfish bigots to arriving at a place where we can see the Oaks of the world for what they are and love ourselves.

I am so happy to have lived long enough to see a kinder America that does actually, empathetically "get it" . So much acceptance and love now in so many places---but not all unfortunately. And the Mormon church continues to lead the charge when it comes to bigotry, misogyny, and homophobia. Not a healthy place to be.

I hope any gay kids lurking read your post. I'm sure it will help. Best to you. Hang in there. You show a beautiful part of your heart here. I hope someday your mother can see you for who you are.

Evil will suffice.

Oh my, does he ever think he's necessary. Nelson couldn't function without his hovering and corrections nor could all of Mormondom.

In his book he IS the Alpha and Omega gawd sent to guide in, even, these the ladder-daze. Just ask him.... he'll tell you.

The real evil of the LDS church is how they've systematically abandoned Honesty & Kindness, respect for others;

that departure overshadows any of the personalities who are or have tweaked it, IMHO.

AS IF THE (MORmON) church is a necessity. It really is NOT. So, the "necessary evil" theory is NOT plausible.

You are speaking AS IF LD$ inc actually wants to run off certain groups. LD$ Inc is NOT that principled. LD$ inc really does NOT want to run off anyone. The more members they can keep around then the more people that they have to glean from.

LD$ Inc has to look authoritative on something, so they have to trash some groups in order to appear in charge as they claim to be .........that does NOT mean that LD$ inc does NOT want donations from those sinners. In fact the
way that LD$ inc sees things, those sinners should be kicking in extra in order to try to redeem themselves.

Mercy me. I always thought the correct way to spell his name was Dallin A. Chokes.

I am against ECT for anyone let alone a child. The decision to commit suicide over words of a GA is a foolish one, and a clear sign loving and maybe also therapeutic intervention was needed. I'm thinking talk therapy never ECT. Most take from GC what moves them and filter out the rest. The truth I referred to was Oaks' statements about gender.

Calling someone's deep despair which is bad enough to commit suicide "foolish" is about as shallow and insensitive as one gets.

So Oak's bigotry against gay people is one of your "truths?" Wow.

Why don't you get baptized? You'd make a perfect Mormon. Why are you here? This is recovery from Mormonism not WAMA--Worship a Mormon Apostle.

Yeah, the confusion of two things--the pain of societally-induced guilt and homosexuality--is profoundly unhealthy. People need (or would benefit from) therapy for depression and other illnesses. But homosexuality per se does not require therapy because it is natural and healthy.

If the problem arises from a community that condemns natural human behavior and health, it is the community that should be "fixed" and not the individual. That point should never be forgotten.

TBH, I came here out of sheer curiousity. We know two people who left the church and went ballistic started living lives of drinking and sleeping around. Their families blame this site my curiousity got the better of me. I'm not condemning pre marital sex I mean...we do it, I'm talking about sleeping around. With baptism,my BF wants to marry me regardless (he has a testimony but isnt too active) but I may do it for him because he does everything to make me happy. We attend church and I kind of like it. I just dont find it hateful to speak about what nature intended and didnt intend. I support your right to live how you want, but idk...at the ward we have a gay girl who is maybe 21 and she attends each week, nice kid. None of us exclude her, dislike her, or speak badly of her. The hate is what people must feel about themsevles.

Also, what evidence is there that nature never intended homosexuality to exist? It is abundant in the natural world, so that’s horseshit.

Have you ever been ill? Born premature? Bad Pneumonia, influenza, a broken leg?

Nature dictates that anyone of these things should kill you. I’m not saying these things have happened you. I’m sure they’ve happened to people you know and loved ones though. I’m asthmatic and have had asthma attacks.

Nature intends for me to be dead. But the advent of modern medicine, germ theory, and vaccinations have allowed billions of people to be alive and healthy and propagate where nature otherwise would’ve killed them.

So your ideas about what nature intends mean nothing to me, are rooted in nonsense and possibly religious hokum, or maybe just the mishegas and nonsense of your own mind.

Even if it’s not what nature intends, why is what 2 people do in the privacy of their homes a concern of yours?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2018 02:44PM by midwestanon.

The self hate is in response to someone telling you you're broken, or less than, that you don't deserve to have close relationships with others. Basically removing your sexuality, not like a priest in the Catholic church who chooses that life, but because of who you are, regardless of what you want. You sound young and uneducated, I hope you get an opportunity to learn from others and maybe gain some empathy.
You also might want to be careful about believing rumors about people who left the church. Most of them are exaggerations something Mormons are experts at.

"The hate is what people must feel about themsevles."

Got it. You are one of the "blame the victim" types.

Grow up little girl.

Ooh, "little girl". My BF calls me that during some of our best (wink) moments together. Ah, good convo even if you are kind of a whiner.

Watch it.

You come here and express hateful sentiments and then take offense when people call you on that?

Grow up.

Nope, just a scrote.

It's odd how in the minds of some, disagreement is synonymous with hatred. This is a delusional mindset , and is often a psychological projection. I encourage you to seek counsel. What a way to live, assuming everyone who sees the world differently harbors ill will and hatred against you.