Was watching Dateline this morning on the fire disaster from 2003 that was the Cedar fire near San Diego, CA. The survivors on the show shared some remarkable stories of being saved - with some notes on divine intercession.

There were three mentioned during the two hour presentation. First was the mother who was in the car with her husband and two young daughters with the fire raging all around them. They had nowhere to run to get away from the flames that were consuming their home. From the mother's passenger side came a voice that said to her "Go to the pond." It wasn't her husband, her children, or anyone else but an invisible audible voice speaking to her. They tried getting to the pond that was near their home when they instead found themselves in an open dirt circle. That was where they remained until the fire died down around them.

Another couple, older retirees, were driving down their canyon road to safety in the dark. On one side of the road was a cliff. On the other was a mountain. Fire raged on both sides and the road itself with the smoke so dense the wife could not see in front of her or even if she was on the road. She knew if she couldn't stay on it they would go off the cliff or drive into the mountain on the other side. Out of nowhere came a bobcat in her headlights. Something told her intuitively to follow the bobcat. So she did. The bobcat led them to safety.

She wondered after why were they spared and not the twelve people who were doing exactly the same things they were doing to get to safety? She didn't understand but decided it was grace that led them out.

Another family almost made it out intact. One of their three children was caught inside the son's car and died from burns and smoke inhalation. When the firefighters came to tell the parents they said there were two victims inside the car. Not just the one. That is what the firemen saw were two side by side who were perished in the automobile. When the girl's body was later recovered from the vehicle she was the only one inside the vehicle. The parents and their surviving children were convinced the other passenger who was present when the firemen counted two people was their daughter's guardian angel there by her side to help her cross over.

Their second daughter nearly lost her life. Doctors gave her a 15% chance of recovery due to 2nd and 3d degree burns over most of her body. They told her parents pastor to prepare for another burial. Instead, she pulled through, and became another miracle because of how she beat the odds.

It was California's worst wildfire until that time.

What had caused it? A hunter who was signaling for help when he was lost on a mountain, by lighting some bush with a Bic lighter. He was fined and sentenced to probation for his crime.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2018 10:44AM by Amyjo.

A mysterious "voice" (could have been her own thoughts) says, "Go to the pond." They don't make it to the pond. The voice was wrong. Miracle?

A daughter dies. Mysterious second passenger or not (or mistaken firefighters)...dying is a miracle?

Another daughter survives, when doctors gave her a 15% chance of surviving (not a 100% chance of dying), which isn't at all miraculous. But it's another miracle? If some deity was doing miraculous things, why not keep her from getting burned in the first place?

I think you have a pretty low bar for "miracles." And no evidence any of them involved any "divine intervention." You should ask all the people who died in the fire if there were miracles...oh, wait, you can't. They're dead.

edit: by the way, I was smack in the middle of that fire. Family evacuated to a friend's house, I stayed with one other neighbor to watch over our homes. Smoke so thick you couldn't see 10 feet, hot cinders falling all over. Neighbor and I put out 6 small fires from the cinders, and saved all the houses in our area. No "miracle," just hard work.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2018 12:01PM by ificouldhietokolob.

I have had a number of these 'miracles' in my life also. I am not sure I would 'die' but been significantly harmed.

I believe we signed up for certain experiences in this incarnation, including significant health and death options.

If it is something we didn't 'plan' or put as an option ---- one will get 'miraculous' help to prevent it, if necessary. On the other hand, if it is something we signed up for we can also receive 'miraculous' help to be there.

Based on my experiences, I believe few major health issues and death are really 'accidents' even though many will call them that.

Yeah, same here. I've had some close calls, but also some powerful intervening forces to let me know someone is 'up there' or closer than we realize. I thank God for each day, knowing that nothing is promised or guaranteed. It is really a gift we've been given, of life. I take nothing for granted.

By the grace of God go each one of us.

So people whose loved ones died "prematurely" can take solace in knowing that there do exist people on this earth who are worth ghawd's intervention to keep them safe, it just wasn't the one they cried over.

Somewhere there are records of people who were miraculously saved from one situation, only to die as a result of something silly just days later.

But no one wants to have to deal with those stories...

Grace, miracles. Life changing ?

You win the award for number of christian buzzwords in one sentence.

I wish there were a place where atheists could compile stories where no ghawd helped them survive dangerous situations!

Of course that never really happens. Beating high odds always requires divine intervention. Tonight, if winning numbers are drawn in Amyjo's lottery ... ghawd!

You can take that to the bank.

"Out of nowhere came a bobcat in her headlights. Something told her intuitively to follow the bobcat. So she did. The bobcat led them to safety."

Cool. Nature found a way.

The bobcat followed the road. She followed the bobcat. That was all she could see. I don't know about anyone else, but that would make a believer outta me.

These people made references to their faith and spirituality on Dateline. It wasn't a question of whether they were believers or not. They already were.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2018 12:18PM by Amyjo.

So was the bobcat carrying a bible or something?

hahahahahahhahahahahaha or a book of mormon?

I watched the news reporting on the aftermath of the fires in Northern California last year I think it was.

A reporter was interviewing a woman in front of her home that was left unharmed and she was effusively praising God for blessing her and saving her home. Twenty yards away in the background was a woman standing in front of the burnt rubble that once was her home listening to this. You should have seen the look on her face. I have never seen such an expression. Don't even know how to categorize it. My heart leapt to my throat and my brain did a flip flop it was so intense. This woman, standing in ashes, listening to the sanctimonious prattle of this woman. What a slap in the face.

This scenario comes to mind whenever I read or listen to people who think they are so special that God is always saving them because they are special while the rest of the world suffers countless horrific tragedies. Miracles!

Sometimes circumstances turn in someone's favor without explanation. This does not automatically mean some god did it and it most certainly doesn't mean the person who had the good fortune should assume they are this god's favorite and he was performing miracles for them. Unfathomable arrogance.

The people featured on Dateline lost their homes (with the exception of one family.) It was the lives that were spared they considered miraculous.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2018 12:39PM by Amyjo.

This makes no sense as a response to my post.

Much like in the mission field we were told to "answer the question the contact should have asked rather than the one they actually asked." The M.O. here seems to be to respond to the post you wish someone would have written rather than respond to what they actually wrote.

And Done & Done, this is one of the reasons I adore you.

You live in Reality Land. Thank you.

I was a member of the incident management team (IMT) that directed the suppression actions that eventually contained the fire.

I have many memories of the events of the fire, but the ones that made the strongest impressions were the people, complete strangers, that would approach you and express their appreciation for being there to help.

They told us their story of escape and survival. I felt I was totally unqualified to help their mental survival, but when they gave you a big hug and again said thank you, you just knew that your biggest help was listening to them and being there for them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2018 12:31PM by tumwater.

Kudos to you. Anyone involved with the fire rescue and first responders are the real heroes IMO.

>you just knew that your biggest help was listening to them and being there for them.

Absolutely. Brave work, such heart, much appreciated.

>> "What had caused it? A hunter who was signaling for help when he was lost on a mountain, by lighting some bush with a Bic lighter. He was fined and sentenced to probation for his crime."

Sure would have been a lot easier for god to use his "voice" and tell the hunter not to light the fire, and then tell him how to get un-lost and find his way off the mountain.

But I suppose its more fun to believe in miracles after the disaster, unless you're on the non-receiving end of the miracle.

There is allowance for human stupidity, even in forest fires. Although there are many who question the judicial system as letting him get off too easy in lieu of the damage wrought.

As for whether or not you believe in miracles, that's a personal choice. I choose to see the miraculous where others may not.

"There are only two ways to live your life: as though nothing is a miracle, or as though everything is a miracle." (Albert Einstein)

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As for whether or not you believe in miracles,
> that's a personal choice. I choose to see the
> miraculous where others may not.

I would say you choose to declare the miraculous, whether it's actually miraculous or not.

> "There are only two ways to live your life: as
> though nothing is a miracle, or as though
> everything is a miracle." (Albert Einstein)

That's a false dichotomy -- Einstein was wrong. Not for the first or last time, either (as smart as he was). There are billions of ways to live your life.

>> "There is allowance for human stupidity, even in forest fires."

So god "allows" stupid people to do stupid things that kill the non-stupid people? OK, got it.


>> "Although there are many who question the judicial system as letting him get off too easy in lieu of the damage wrought."

I'm questioning god. Seem's like god didn't let him off very easy...Oh yeah, I forgot, god has a stupidity clause he has to allow for.

Smokey the Bear (Bobcat?) does a better job of preventing forest fires than god.

Please, Miss, you should stick to limericks. Tis there that you really shine!

Along with the notion that "God will not let you suffer more than you are capable of tolerating" and "children chose their parents in the pre-existence," this is one of the cruelest doctrines that religion has ever propounded.

Amen, Sister!

Would that be "blame the victim" or "gloat in one's own good fortune while others suffer?"

The show was actually life affirming and about saving as many lives as possible by the firemen and first responders on the scene and the families who made it out alive.

It was a team and community effort.

What was horrible was that firemen were not able to get into the areas hardest hit due to the remoteness of the location and the onslaught of the fire itself. It was described as a force and a presence that even years of fire fighting had not prepared the fire fighters for the brutality of the Cedar fire until after it had burned itself out.

It was nature at its rawest (one of the survivors described it that way.)

>> " It was described as a force and a presence..."

This sounds like satan controlled the fire that god allowed to happen. Is that right? Are you saying god and satan were directly involved with this fire?

I don't get the interventionist mentality.

Thank you for sharing these stories, Amyjo. It’s nice to see there are people with spiritual knowledge and understanding on this board.

Tankoo friend.

Nice to see I'm not alone.

Every single family that was featured on Dateline this morning wasn't necessarily religious per se. But what they all shared in common was how they prayed to get through their ordeal. They prayed for each other, their community, and through it all their prayers were answered - not in saving their homes, except for one.

It was their lives. The family who lost a child thanked God for the time they had with her in their family. She had gone to her prom the night before and was carrying out some of her dresses with her from their house when they were trying to escape the flames. Her beautiful red prom dress was one of them. It's the memories now of a life well lived they take with them as a family that lived and loved each other deeply.

They had simple faith that was put to the test. That isn't religiosity. You either have it or you don't.

I take it back!

What's done cannot be undone.

...Unless it's you getting the mods to save you from your own 'doings'.

Magical thinking.

dogblogger Wrote:
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> Magical thinking.

No, no -- "spiritual knowledge and understanding!"

You know, coincidences, people dying, and things we have no explanations for (arguments from ignorance) are "miracles." That's what "spiritual knowledge and understanding" is, doncha know!

All I can do is say thank heaven for God's vehicle for conveying "spiritual knowledge and understanding," even Dateline on NBC.

Lost on them is that the God they want to give credit to is the same God who allowed the fire in the first place.


Let me beat and scare you and then you can praise me for helping you survive?

Seriously?


These "miracle" type stories are problematic for several reasons but I ill just list two:


-They resort to supernatural explanations when perfectly non-supernatural plausible explanations are not ruled out

-They remember the hits and forget the misses



If you throw a handful of beans toward the ceiling and a couple land in your glass of water, it's a miracle! The beans were lucky! God did it!


The most disappointing part of stories like these is that people watch this crap on TV but they can't think past a 4th grade science level about cause and effect criteria.

It's my personal belief that this type of 'behavior' allows people who otherwise can't impress, to think they are impressive. The internet lends itself to this activity.

It's hard to fault them for trying, but I manage to do what I can.

Mostly because there's the Bell Shaped Curve, just standing there, offering a simple, yet elegant, explanation. But it doesn't allow for claims of 'specialness'.

The arrogance of believing that God intervenes and saves some and allows others to suffer and die... And the insult of the belief that we somehow chose our tragedies—despicable.

Well, the ones in whose lives he 'intervenes' sure seem pleased as punch that he took the time to notice them.

I thought Done & Done's contribution was superb with regard to this issue...cuz like Amyjo's OP, it came from watching TV. And we all know that that makes it official.

Also there's the fact that I do not mind being preached to, but I kind of feel sorry for those who might have issues with it. But this has become her board.

Either God loves some people more than others and uses the misfortune of the latter to show his love to the former; or NBC wants to sell ad space and accordingly hires people who know how to appeal to people who want to believe in a comforting superior power.

But that would be too cynical, surely. The good folks at Dateline are motivated only by the purest of motives.

I constantly point out to Saucie that TV shows are written/designed/intended to grab the viewer by the lapels and not let go. They'll write whatever it takes to sink their claws into their demographic.

...whatever it takes...

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I constantly point out to Saucie that TV shows are
> written/designed/intended to grab the viewer by
> the lapels and not let go. They'll write whatever
> it takes to sink their claws into their
> demographic.
>
> ...whatever it takes...

Absolutely true.

And, sometimes, someone central to the production process (a writer, for example) will say: No.

[For a possible and, uh, "potential" instance: when someone has been hired to write a major network MOW--but the plot is, in reality, a practical guide about how, exactly, potential murderers can select unknowing women victims on the freeway, murder them, and get away with it. There are times when even a generous six figures in initial payment, plus residuals, plus pension contributions paid for by the employer, isn't worth the chance that ONE killer, SOMEWHERE, would follow that guide and one or more people would be actually murdered. Regardless of all the true industry stories to the contrary, there ARE people in the industry who have lines they will not cross--sometimes even if it means the end of their careers.]