For those not inclined to hit the link. Here are the key paragraphs:
"My daughter didn't comment on any of the speakers besides Holland. His talk disturbed her.
Holland seemed on edge, angry.
He fussed about one of his primary teachers from his childhood. She had taught that sinning was like pounding nails into a board. Through the atonement, one could remove the nails but the holes remained. Holland said that the teacher didn't understand the atonement. My daughter felt like he was throwing his primary teacher under the bus because this wasn't just her. This teaching has been pervasive through the church and the apostles should have called it out long ago in a general conference setting.
Questions apparently were solicited and submitted in advance to Holland. He stated that he was troubled by questions he received. They were heavy and dark. He only brought 2 of the questions up in his talk.
Q 1: How do I balance everything and deal with all the challenges in life?
A: Put God first, even over spouse. Put your spouse over children. You put God first by putting church and church callings first. He recounted all the time-consuming callings he had as a young married person, yet never ever missed a Friday night date night with his wife. My daughter felt that was putting up an unbelievable & impossible standard of perfection.
4. Q 2: How can I trust that the leaders are telling me the truth?
A: Irate, he balled up his hands and pounded the podium. Pounded the pulpit multiple times. He took personal offense that someone would question him after all he has put into the church. How dare you. How dare you question me. How dare you question the best 15 men I know. How dare you suggest that me and my 15 brethren have spent our lives spreading a fairy tale. He has given so much time to the church. The apostles are such good men. If you chose to leave this church you are doing it at your own peril. You will be messed up if you leave this church. There is only way to salvation. In.This.Church."
It would have been so cool (and excommuncative) to have stood up and yelled, "Screw you, you doddering old nincompoop!" And then sidled out of your pew... "excuse me, 'scuse me... sorry...pardon me..." with people hissing at you or winking.
"He took personal offense that someone would question him after all he has put into the church. How dare you. How dare you question me. How dare you question the best 15 men I know. How dare you suggest that me and my 15 brethren have spent our lives spreading a fairy tale. He has given so much time to the church. The apostles are such good men. If you chose to leave this church you are doing it at your own peril. You will be messed up if you leave this church. There is only way to salvation. In.This.Church."
He sounds like the typical con man who gets frustrated when people start questioning the con instead of just being the good, docile suckers that he hoped they would be.
The idea being that the best defense is a good offense, he simply goes on the offense and tries to make his questioners feel like there's something wrong with them.
"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!! Only pay attention to your own faults and failings!"
Reminds me of that old saying: "If the facts are on your side, use the facts in all of your arguments. If the law is on your side, quote the law in all of your arguments. If neither the law nor the facts are on your side, pound your fist repeatedly on the table."
Wally Prince Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Nobody does...because it doesn't make any sense. > > He sounds like the typical con man who gets > frustrated when people start questioning the con > instead of just being the good, docile suckers > that he hoped they would be. > > The idea being that the best defense is a good > offense, he simply goes on the offense and tries > to make his questioners feel like there's > something wrong with them. > > "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!! > Only pay attention to your own faults and > failings!" > > Reminds me of that old saying: "If the facts are > on your side, use the facts in all of your > arguments. If the law is on your side, quote the > law in all of your arguments. If neither the law > nor the facts are on your side, pound your fist > repeatedly on the table."
Sounds like a narcissist to me. It could be that Holland actually was a true believer and when he finally got up towards the top he saw what he really believed in most his life is a fraud. Now he feels stuck there and is frustrated.
I'm sure if you could get Jeff Holland on a psychiatrist couch and break him down all sorts of emotional delusion would come out of the guy.
In short. He's a big kid who finally learned Santa Claus isn't real and he's floored. He still wants to believe and he's angry.
It is a narcissistic version of the sunk costs fallacy.
Normally sunk costs apply to the individual: after a mission, a temple marriage, and a career based in part on my Mormon network, I've put too much into the church to consider that it might be false. I believe the church understands that and consequently forces people to invest a lot while they are young.
In Holland's case, though, he is saying that HIS sunk costs are so great that OTHERS cannot legitimately question the church. The only way that makes sense is if Holland implicitly views everyone else as an extension of his ego.
It is hard to find a better example of narcissistic preoccupation than that.
All of them should be asked the hard questions to see how they react. If they blow up, it’s because they have been “exposed”, and the questioner hit a nerve. I wish someone had recorded that.
Someone should of stood up and say in a meek and submissive voice, "Excuse me your Hinus, can you please void Sam Young's excommunication, Sam says praise Joseph Smith when ever a member has a blessing instead of AMEN.
An old railroad tower operator realizes that a speeding passenger is heading down the wrong track. Unless the track switch is changed, then the train will crash with numerous casualties and death. A clear track is available, but there is a railroad worker on the track that will not be able to hear or see the oncoming train. He will be killed. (For good measure, it's the son of the tower operator).
We as young men were then asked what we would do. We were supposed to choose the "correct" scenario of killing the lone worker that wouldn't see/hear the train. (Sometimes, the teacher would change the wording to indicate that it was your father or another close family member.) This is a terrible mind game that they play with the youth.
I always chose the wrong answer by agreeing to allow the train to crash. I didn't agree with their forced thinking exercises. I was told over and over that my answer was wrong. This is why Holland has become so angry. Members are not accepting what is being taught in the church.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2018 04:26AM by messygoop.
that they sometimes used in Sunday School. You are responsible for keeping a lighthouse light lit with limited fuel, but someone from the nearby village comes and tells you that they have no fuel to heat their homes because it is much colder this winter than ever expected...and many will die if you don't give them fuel. Your choice: Ignore the villagers, certain that many will die as a result, and stick to your duty to the lighthouse, even though there is a possibility that there will be no actual shipwrecks, even if the lighthouse light runs out of fuel...OR...give essential fuel to the villagers, knowing that, as a result, there may be one or more shipwrecks.
Of course it was a goofy "either or" "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario that didn't provide any details that you could use to come up with less drastic alternatives. I would then fill in the details, so that you could find a workable solution. One involved building a shelter around the lighthouse that could take advantage of the heat being given off by the light anyway and having the most vulnerable villagers stay in the shelter, while at the same time ensuring that the other villagers could make do with the remaining resources that they already had.
The teacher hated that. "No! No! Somebody has to die!" I actually could never even figure out what the point of that exercise was other than to convince people that sometimes God puts people into horrible situations without any solution.
You could up the complexity of the issue. Say your self-driving Tesla can't stop quickly enough, and has to decide whether to take out a group of children or a someone in a wheelchair. So the computer has to decide who lives or dies. The church and its money making motives is more like the computer.
Heard so many of these stories growing up in the Mormon church just like yours and Wally's.
It's just Nephi killing Laban all over again. Better that one man should perish than a whole nation dwindle in unbelief or however it goes.
I used to hear one at church about an Arabian stallion being trained for the Sheik and as a final test he was given no water until he was at the point of death. Then he was released and just as he reached the water trough the signal was given for him to return.
The lessons are always the same. They say God first, but it's church first, gerontocracy first, even if you ruin your family, your life, or you or someone else dies.
Holland is a sick tyrant. He's got a whole church dwindling in sick belief.
That's the beauty of the scam--"God first" effectively means them first. Until God himself takes the pulpit at General Conference, all they have is "God told us to tell you to do whatever we say."
The only miracle in the church is that so many people eat that shit up.
Like everything you can justify your answer. Let's say the worker on the track is a super great person who does lot's of good. Then let's say the people on the train were a bunch of cut throat Nazis on their way to take over the government.
Don't you people realize what could happen in a decade from now if this holy Seer Holland is still alive and perhaps weaker with his mental faculties? He was born in the 1940s. The only men in the LDS Church that have been holy prophets-seers-revelators longer than him are Nelson, Oaks, and Ballard - all who will be over 96 in a decade from now - if still alive. If they aren't alive but Holland is then he'll be the most important MAN in the whole world according to our beloved gospel.
In the meantime the digital age advancements will progress. People will have tech apps by then where anytime this Holy Prophet Holland gets up to speak and answer questions that they'll be able to quickly analyze (via listening tools, speech-based navigation controls, Oculus like VR tools, etc) what he's saying in cross reference to other speeches he's given and see for themselves how super honest/transparent this Holy Prophet is and how consistent and unchanging the beloved doctrines have been. What's really exciting towards getting to the truth on things about whether someone is really honest (or not) will be the capabilities in such applications to ask effective questions towards learning the truth.
And don't forget that Holland is not a dodo. He's a holy prophet, seer, revelator, and apostle. That's what we learn in the wondrous Correlation program.
I have a friend who worked with Jeffery Holland when he was president of BYU. In the capacity of a college president Jeffery Holland was a good guy. He really did care about the students and being a student at BYU myself BYU didn't seem ruled with an iron fist. I never really saw anyone enforcing the honor code and the atmosphere was a lot more loose than I thought it was going to be.
Now we have Jeffery Holland as an apostle. From my friend and others I have heard Jeffery Holland cries a lot. He get's so spiritually emotional he breaks out in tears and cries and prays a lot. He is a spiritual fanatic to where he will break down and cry or he will get lividly mad if anyone offends him by criticizing the church.
Also I have heard Holland suffers from depression. I don't know if it's clinical and he has to be on meds or if it's more of a personality disorder. I would assume there is something clinically wrong with the guy's brain and then add in all the mojo of being a high profile church leader you probably are going to get Club KooKoo Bird.
When Holland was younger and just a university president, he seemed a lot more stable and nicer.
Rubicon Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I would assume there is something clinically wrong > with the guy's brain and then add in all the mojo > of being a high profile church leader you probably > are going to get Club KooKoo Bird.
I think the Second Anointing is the initiation into Club KooKoo Bird.
Only people who don't want to be gods on earth leave Club Med-icated.
If Holland becomes prophet, they will probably sedate him. Haha! President Holland couldn't make it to this conference session. He really wants to be here and he's watching these proceedings from his apartment. You just need a warm body to be a prophet and sometimes I think a cold one will do. Haha!
Jeff Holland behaves as though he possesses some sort of moral high ground by virtue of his position. If he possessed the high ground it might be more self evident and no need to demand it with childish petulant response. Some past leaders have invited members to ask questions. Evidently only some questions are allowed.
A few examples of past leaders invitingd questions:
“I admire men and women who have developed the questioning spirit, who are unafraid of new ideas as stepping stones to progress. We should, of course, respect the opinions of others, but we should also be unafraid to dissent – if we are informed. Thoughts and expressions compete in the marketplace of thought, and in that competition truth emerges triumphant. Only error fears freedom of expression.” - Apostle Hugh B. Brown, A Final Testimony,” from An Abundant Life, 1999
“The man who cannot listen to an argument which opposes his views either has a weak position or is a weak defender of it. No opinion that cannot stand discussion or criticism is worth holding… In general it is true that nothing which cannot stand up under discussion or criticism is worth defending” James E. Talmage
“I think a full, free talk is frequently of great use; we want nothing secret nor underhanded, and I for one want no association with things that cannot be talked about and will not bear investigation. John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Volume 20, page 264.
Felix Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Jeff Holland behaves as though he possesses some > sort of moral high ground by virtue of his > position. If he possessed the high ground it might > be more self evident and no need to demand it with > childish petulant response. Some past leaders have > invited members to ask questions. Evidently only > some questions are allowed. > > A few examples of past leaders invitingd > questions: > > “I admire men and women who have developed the > questioning spirit, who are unafraid of new ideas > as stepping stones to progress. We should, of > course, respect the opinions of others, but we > should also be unafraid to dissent – if we are > informed. Thoughts and expressions compete in the > marketplace of thought, and in that competition > truth emerges triumphant. Only error fears freedom > of expression.” > - Apostle Hugh B. Brown, A Final Testimony,” > from An Abundant Life, 1999 > > “The man who cannot listen to an argument which > opposes his views either has a weak position or is > a weak defender of it. No opinion that cannot > stand discussion or criticism is worth holding… > In general it is true that nothing which cannot > stand up under discussion or criticism is worth > defending” James E. Talmage > > > “I think a full, free talk is frequently of > great use; we want nothing secret nor underhanded, > and I for one want no association with things that > cannot be talked about and will not bear > investigation. John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, > Volume 20, page 264. > > I could include many more but you get my point.
Some great quotes. Holland clearly is a weak person. Again like I said before. I think he has seen what he invested his whole life in is a fraud and Holland has been thrown for an emotional loop. His testimony of the church probably is weak but he feels he is stuck in it. That would explain a lot about his angry outbursts.
Of course is Holland has an emotional breakdown and finally says publicly, I can't live this lie no more. I'm sure plenty of exmormons will be there for Holland to help him recover from Mormonism. Haha
Felix Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > “I think a full, free talk is frequently of > great use; we want nothing secret nor underhanded, > and I for one want no association with things that > cannot be talked about and will not bear > investigation. John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, > Volume 20, page 264.
Gee, how does a modern Mormon square this with their "sacred, not secret" temple rituals?
It's almost like you have to be stupid and/or ignorant of your own church's history to remain a member.
I think Holland is upset because he's being denied the easy-going Mormon "gravy-train". He did everything right in his mind to know the right people, put on his spiffy Mormon glow and climb aboard the apostle express. Instead of smooth ride down the Tithing RR like all those before him (he was ordained in 1994), he has been sent down the line to find out why members have torn up the church's tracks over lies, false history and disbelief. Holland feels cheated of having to go rescue members that no longer stay on the church's rails to eternity. Holland believes that he is working harder than his predecessors.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2018 10:59PM by messygoop.
Jeffery Holland is the Glenn Beck of apostles. One of these days he will have a complete break down at the pulpit and it will be great. Calm down Jeff. Calm down. I would give you a drink but I know you don't do that. Stay calm. We have some Xanax coming. Don't worry. We will drive you home and make sure you get in bed safe and sound.
Ok I get it, ball your fists, check. the fifteen are good men. check. how dare you question me. check.
NOW PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION1 HOW CAN I TRUST THAT THE LEADERS ARE TELLING ME THE TRUGH?
4. Q 2: How can I trust that the leaders are telling me the truth?
A: Irate, he balled up his hands and pounded the podium. Pounded the pulpit multiple times. He took personal offense that someone would question him after all he has put into the church. How dare you. How dare you question me. How dare you question the best 15 men I know. How dare you suggest that me and my 15 brethren have spent our lives spreading a fairy tale. He has given so much time to the church. The apostles are such good men. If you chose to leave this church you are doing it at your own peril. You will be messed up if you leave this church. There is only way to salvation. In.This.Church."