If you were the leader of the Mormon Church, and you knew it wasn't true, how would you let people know?

If you stand up in conference and declare your unbelief, you will be escorted out, and the church will let everyone know you are mentally unstable. Coming out against Mormonism would backfire on you. You would need a different strategy.

So maybe digging in deeper with church rules. Get rid of the fun part of the religion and make people be more somber with everything that is evil, scouting, gays, and pageants. Slowly, you would get most people to realize that Mormonism isn't what it used to be, and make them investigate further. There would always be those so entrenched that whatever their president told them they would feel it is god's word.

I think Nelson is an entrenched-believer in his religion, but it does seem he isn't making wise choices with his leadership. Maybe that is his goal, get rid of the chaff and make the church ultra somber and religious. I think his leadership will hurt The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Just typing out the full name is stupid. What is his goal?

Maybe it's all a reflection of his being 93 and nothing more.

94, soon out the door.

He’s in a difficult position for sure. I suspect he knows the BoM was made up, but that doesn’t negate what the church has become. So how to unravel the mess. No wonder he’s such a sour puss. Age is a problem. His baby steps won’t accomplish enough before the next guy takes over. Hopefully Oaks.

Hopefully Oaks? That jerk is an ignorant hateful bigot.

Exactly

Nelson is definitely a true believer.

Unlike his predecessors, he believes that he is in a position to get a true revelation from God.

He will govern by revelation, not by reason, or consensus or advice from the PR guys or even common sense.

He is the truest believing president the LDS church has had for a long long time.

Who do you think was the last one? Hunter? Kimball? Benson?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2018 11:11AM by angela.

I think Kimball was a true believer.

He definitely thought there were some "Lamanites" out there whose skin was turning light because they had repented and embraced the truth.

To me, that is a sign he was a true believer.

HJG was not a believer and not even a particularly religious man. He was a businessman who found himself at the head of a very strange corporation. He made it crystal clear again and again that he did NOT get revelations.

I believe that Nelson can't wait to get a revelation.

> I believe that Nelson can't wait to get a revelation.

You mean like walking in on Sherry and Wendy...?

angela asks:

> Who do you think was the last one? Hunter?
> Kimball? Benson?

They all know, the lot's been aware for most of their lives.

Each of our presiding lads, inducted or not, have been partners in an age-long, Holy Mormon Freemasonical Club.

I think you are spot on. President Nelson looks quite healthy for his age. He might have another ten years in him. My great aunt was just like him in her mid 90's and lived to be 105. At the end of her life she was pretty miserable because old age had finally taken its toll. Oaks and Ballard very well could kick the bucket before Nelson does.

no one knows better than the MORmON PRofit that the MORmON PRofit is NOT really communing with MORmON Jesus.

Personally, I feel it is an opportunity to push the church into a more orthodox place. Double down on anything that might bring joy. Next thing you know there will be a dress code, a charge to give even more and doubling down on bigotry...oh wait that's already happened.

minnieme Wrote:
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> Personally, I feel it is an opportunity to push
> the church into a more orthodox place. Double down
> on anything that might bring joy. Next thing you
> know there will be a dress code, a charge to give
> even more and doubling down on bigotry...oh wait
> that's already happened.


Can't help but think that Oaks' influence is huge in all of this.

Maybe he's trying to curb people joining for social reasons. This is serious business, dontcha know?

Greyfort Wrote:
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> Maybe he's trying to curb people joining for
> social reasons. This is serious business, dontcha
> know?


So much for the "Adam fell that men might be. Men are that they might have joy"~~~

He knows that believers want to be led and told what's important.

He knows the members need an enduring sense of identity and community that doesn't constantly embarrass them.

He knows facts don't really matter when people want faith-based Simon Says.

He knows he needs to keep the business viable.

He knows the ends justify the means.

He probably thinks that's how God does things.

In all honesty, I think they all know Joseph was a fraud. I think they believe what they stand for helps families. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that statement from people who know the fraudulent beginnings of the church but stay 'coz the kid's. Like teaching them bigotry is a good thing.

If they take the position that the church Jesus set up doesn't exist any longer, then they can justify everything they're doing. They have just as much right as any other organization to take a swing at saving mankind.

Not that mankind needs any saving. I take the position that the Universe needs saving from mankind.

Their narrow view of who is worth saving is what I have an issue with.
I agree with the universe needing saving from us though.

Humans are the worst...
But given that the universe is us, isn’t that saying we need to save ourselves FROM ourselves? In which case, agreed.

I think they all know it's a fraud at that level. The church co pays them too much to ever admit that it's a scam.

so maybe when nelson is dead, the new profit will reinstate everything nelson stopped. TBM's will be scratching their heads

Soon I will post an open ltr to RMN asking straight-up help with my family which was sabotaged by x-DW using church as a Wedge; by his response (or lack of) I'll be able to tell & report...

You mean you'll tell us about your bishop's response when he is forwarded your letter and told to take care of it.

Hey, I'm a cynic.

I've already asked the Bp. for help; maybe that I'm NOT A MEMBER ANYMORE influenced his decision not to respond!

But WAIT!! He's the Bishop for EVERYONE WHO LIVES IN THE WARD BOUNDARIES, Correct?

You actually think he’ll get a response??
Wow, that’s giving COJCOLDS a lot of credit.

I don't know what Nelson's motivations are, but I do believe that he has a large ego. His leadership will probably make people who are not conservative, right wing Republicans exit the Mormon Church more quickly.

His leadership will continue the trend of less convert baptisms, continue the trend of less overall Church attendance and continue the decline of BYU's difficulty in recruiting quality athletes to it's football and basketball programs.

Is byu in any athletic conference?

BYU football is not in any conference.

I think many of its other sports are, though. Weird, huh?

Of course they may believe that it's a good organization. They may even believe that it's guided in some fashion by God.

But they have to know that the way that it is portrayed to the rank and file members is not the way that it really is.

The rank and file members are encouraged to believe that the Apostles commune with Jesus in the temple and elsewhere in some special way and get clear revelation and inspiration.

The rank and file members are encouraged to believe that the General Authorities have special gifts and powers of discernment, prophecy, etc.

Over the years, however, it has become clear, reading between the lines in descriptions of how decisions are actually made, that there is nothing special about the decision-making processes or abilities of the leaders. Many corporations actually have better decision makers--no doubt motivated to be better decision makers due to having greater accountability for their decisions.

When Kimball got his "revelation" on allowing black people to hold the priesthood, there were some descriptions of the revelation process made public. Turns out that he thought about the problem a lot, discussed it with others, prayed, weighed the pros and cons and finally made the decision that he felt best about. Basically, he just described the same decision-making process that everyone uses all the time, whether it's deciding whether to buy a new car, deciding where to go to college or deciding whether to start a small business. The only difference is that he labeled it as "revelation". Whereas an ordinary person would say they "decided" to buy a used Hyundai instead of a new Toyota, someone like Kimball would say they got a "revelation." When they attach labels like "revelation" and "inspiration" to their decisions, they are misleading ordinary people who are conditioned to believe that those words mean something other than ordinary decision making.

Then there's the case of Hoffman selling fake documents that were examined by all of the tip-top, tippy-top Top Prophet and Apostle Guys at the time. None of them discerned that they were fake documents. Jerald Tanner tried to warn them that they were fake and they ignored his warnings.

Then there's Nelson getting an "impression on his mind" (also known as the pet peeve that he has nursed in his mind for almost thirty years) about the name of the Church. Again, nothing special about his decision-making process.

So, yeah, they all know that it is a fraud in a substantial way. Everything else is fudging. They fudge to themselves and they fudge to the rank and file membership.

well said

I've made many inspired decisions when purchasing furniture on Sundays. They also have great sales on the day of rest.

Does Neslson ever sit quietly and realize the only revelation is his own voice. So whatever he says is the revelation for his thoughts. When shared with the 12, the yes men will simply go along with feeling good about whatever the prophet is sharing and continue as they always have down the seniority line making the voice voice vote known.

Since administrative matters have taken over church 'guidance' for decades/eons/epochs, I think every GA is pretty clear on what's up & what's not...

On the world's front burner: hunger & homelessness, 100's of thousands of people are refugees, Unheard of strifes etc.


just me?

Whatever else they may be, I suspect that most of the top leader guys are well above-average in intelligence.

They constantly demonstrate an awareness of the need to finesse, conceal, spin and divert attention away from embarrassing historical problems, doctrinal problems and administrative issues (such as demands for financial transparency).

True believers would not exhibit that degree of sophistication. A true believer in the Top Prophet slot would be the worst nightmare of the Big 15.

Things a true believer would say:

"Of course dark skin is a curse. It says so plainly in the Book of Mormon, which is the most correct book on earth."

"Of course we awarded very lucrative church contracts to my favorite cousin. I prayed about it and the Lord revealed to me that it was the correct thing to do."

"Of course the doctrinal basis for polygamy is sound and true. It's an eternal principle. Currently, we have problems implementing it due to the bad attitude of the government. But I will spend church funds to lobby for a change in the laws in order to allow this sacred and everlasting covenant to be restored in practice."

You never get true-believer pronouncements from the top guys. They know it's not true. They are managing the situation. They see benefits in keeping the organization going for the time being. They have a few million people who hang on their every word. If you're a cynical, narcissistic or sociopathic guy who has risen to the top echelons of authority in such an organization, you don't blow it up.

danr Wrote:
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> If you were the leader of the Mormon Church, and
> you knew it wasn't true, how would you let people
> know?


Better yet, lets say that a person has been an epic phony their entire life even as they have been a LD$ inc corporate insider and an insider plant who managed to ride their insider connections to the very top of the filthy vile corrupt MORmON corporation. After decades of LYING, making excuses, obfuscating, and being a real POS, the charade begins to be intolerably boring, so they get up in conference and say borderline stuff /crap ......or completely outlandish stuff to test the waters and to amuse themselves about how incredibly stupid and gullible that the MORmON flock really is.

......Yah, how could ANYONE ever get it across to the dim bulb dumb ass brain dead MORmON members that their beloved THE (MORmON) church is a scam and a phony put on from the get go ?????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbrJjqZul-I

...to wear funny, uncomfortable, idiotic-looking underwear didn't do the trick, nothing really will.

As long as the professional leaders keep showing up, the official magazines keep getting published, the buildings remain open and the organization keeps cashing the tithing checks, the sheep will keep lining up to get fleeced.

About the only thing that would work is if the Top Leader Guys one day announced that ChurchCo is going out of business and that, beginning immediately, all church-owned buildings are closed to everyone except for real estate appraisers and building inspectors.

The members wouldn't believe it.

But then all around the world, when they attempt to go to church on the next Sunday, they find that the lights are out, the electricity has been cut off and all of the locks on the doors have been changed. A couple of private security guards are in front of each building and tell the members that they are trespassing. "This is private property. You are not allowed to be here."

Then...and only then...would some of them realize that they may actually have to start forming original thoughts in their heads for the first time in their lives.

"What do we do now? Where do we go on Sundays now? Who will now tell us what God wants? Can we still wear the funny underwear?"

I think some members are already in shock because somebody just stole one hour of their worship.

I think it is possible Nelson thinks this. It is even possible he would be one of those here if he didn't have such a career being in TSCC.

From what I've read here in the past and recently...

1. He's the one that originally pointed out the Seer Stone. He's the one that pushed the issue. He's the one that mentioned the stone in the Hat officially within Mormon talks. He's released this information more than 20 years ago.

2. He was behind some of the release of information in the church essays which talked about racism and blacks, the translation and other things.

3. He reduced the church hours from 3 hours to 2 hours. Looks like he may have wanted shorter church to. Had to make an excuse of why he did it though to make it sound official.

4. He is tearing down the Teenager programs. He got rid of scouting. The two hours probably affect them most. Just recently he got rid of Pageants of which some here (and r/exmormon) have complained about. This seems to deal with fun kids had with these things.

5. He told the old tich guys they were not able their super special meetings to praise themselves anymore in church and had to meet with the young or poor guys in the new Elder's quorum meetings only.

He could have done something to make everyone more equal and less clickish...but nope...let's just rain on the rich old guy's parade instead. That's a good way to lose money!

If I were someone trying to take down the church from the inside without anyone realizing it, I might follow this exact playbook.

Trying to tell people that this will mean they will focus more on family at home (BS??) is kind of hilarious. He needs some sort of excuse.

Some of his actions seem like he's trying to take it down from the inside?

Also, it could be TSCC is going bankrupt. When organizations go bankrupt they cut hours, cut programs, but give the illusion of expanding at first (ala...Sears when they bought companies like K-mart but were actually bleeding money at the time).

If he's a true believer, he's probably doing it because he believes he was right all the time (even when the prophet told him to cool it decades ago, he's held onto this grudge for decades...only to say it was recent revelation when it's actually a personal grudge he's held for years).

If he's NOT a true believer and thinks TSCC is a fraud, his actions could be attempting to take it down from the inside without others realizing what he is doing.

Have a TBM read 'Profile of a Prophet' Originally by Hugh Brown (how many remember him???), but has been re-published since.

It names the attributes/qualifications of a Prophet, but none lately has come close.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/hugh-b-brown_profile-of-a-prophet/

Therefore, ChurchCo doesn't live up to its own claims;

Game Over.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2018 02:18AM by GNPE.

knowing how to drive a bus and...actually driving a bus, I always thought that a person who claims to be a prophet should know how to prophesy and should actually be known for producing prophecies at least once or twice in their entire lifetime.

Not so with the Mormon prophets. They're like "bus drivers" who don't know how to drive and never drove a bus in their life.

------

N: "Hey, I'm the Prophet!"

P: "Wow! Tell me some of your prophecies."

N: "I don't have any prophecies, silly person. I never have and never will. You don't have to make prophecies to be a prophet. You just need to be sustained as a prophet by a bunch of people who would sustain a ham sandwich as a barrel of chicken if instructed to do so."

P: "Oh, I see. I didn't know that."

N: "That's right. And I'm also the Seer!"

P: "Really?? What do you see?"

N: "I see you asking me stupid questions. I see you paying your tithing because you're afraid that if you don't God will make bad things happen to you. I see you wearing funny underwear because you think it will protect you from physical injuries and because you're a born sucker."

P: "Wow! You really are a Seer!"

WP writes: The apostles are "like 'bus drivers' who don't know how to drive and never drove a bus in their life."

A common mistake is to assume that the bus driver's job is driving when in fact it is pleasing the bus company's management. As long as no passenger dies, management isn't going to pay any attention to the individual driver. Conversely, if the driver is too concerned with the passengers and tries to persuade managers to cut prices or improve service, he will be fired for bothering his bosses.

The key to understanding the church is to acknowledge that it feels no obligation to its members at all. As Boyd rhetorically asked, "which way will you face?" It should be--and this is true of the prophet as well--to the Q15. Keeping them happy is the only job any church bureaucrat ever has. Whether a person prophesies or even acts morally is irrelevant.

That is why the bureaucrats in the Q15 hire bureaucrats--lawyers, businessmen, etc--to serve them. A charismatic or unusually empathetic person would only cause trouble. As Brother Fyodor observed, if Jesus really did return to earth the Q15 would have him executed for getting in the way.

He doesn't know how a heart really works but knows he is an expert on hearts. He doesn't know it is a fraud because he would have to know how it really works and he don't want to know.