The Book of Mormon no longer converts people to the church. If it's not doing that it's not serving a real purpose. It really is nothing more than biblical rehash. Ok. Christ visited America. Well the Yogi Manda's believe Christ visited India.

The Book of Mormon brought people into the church when America was viewed as the magical land where anything can happen. Those days are over. President Nelson has even said church growth has shifted to South America and Africa. He knows it's not going to grow in the west anymore.

The real interest in the church is retaining it's tithing paying members and you do that with the temple recommend. What makes more tithing money and keeps people in the church is temple weddings.

It's pretty demeaning to be the member of the family who can't attend the temple wedding of a relative. Most members don't want to be that person. So many jump through the hoops to get and keep a recommend.

Temples are what the church is focusing on. The Book of Mormon is just kind of there. Sure the church still puts a big focus on it but that might start to be replaced with a general focus on Jesus and eternal marriage and eternal families.

Magic America doesn't sell anymore and so the Book of Mormon is just a book a Broadway play that mocks the church is named after. Nelson badly wants to get rid of the word Mormon. No better way than to take the focus off the Book of Mormon.

And that makes it useful as a doorstop, as a paperweight, as a bug swatter, as ballast in a balloon and as a week's supply of kindling in the wilderness.

Get yourself some Bags-o-BoMs (huge, sturdy canvas bags filled with 15 volumes of the books each--now on sale for $19.95 while supplies last!) and you can use them as weights for weight training, boating enthusiasts can use them as anchors (when sealed in sturdy waterproof plastic bags, sold separately) and you can even use them as counterweights for elevators when emergency elevator repairs are needed.

But I surmise that you are mainly focused on the question of the BoM having a role to play in promoting the Mormon faith system and/or providing spiritual guidance. Yeah, it's about as fit for those purposes as a block of moldy cheese.

It's pure inertia that keeps it from being abandoned. It's still pushed forward by the weight of 150 years of being touted as the "keystone" of the religion. More like the millstone now.

It never really did add anything. Silly battle stories. Remakes of old Bible stories (like dancing for a decapitation), putting 19th century revivalist sermons into the mouths of ridiculous characters portrayed as ancient Americans. No content that supports the later, more defining oddities of Mormonism, such as polygamy, ordinances for dead people, temples, etc.

You're right. The main purpose was always to add the "magic" element. Golden plates. Stones that can be used to translate unknown ancient languages. A glowing angel managing the work. Eleven witlesses testifying that they seen the plates with their spirchual eyes and even hefted them plates before the glow-in-the-dark angel from the Land of Moron schlepped them precious plates back to the big library in the sky. All magic. All invisible to ordinary people.

Whenever the missionaries try to sell the story of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, they probably hear involuntary snorts and giggles more often than any other response.

In a pinch, can it be used as hamster bedding?

would you need to shred it first out of compassion for the little critters?

It has been years now since the word Lamanite was used to refer to American Indians. The Book of Mormon was supposedly written to them and they are not even mentioned in General Conference, etc. anymore. The Spencer W. Kimball years were all about making prophecy come true and making Lamanites (American Indians on reservations in the United States) blossom. It was a failure. Any purpose that it might serve now isn't what it was allegedly written for. Maybe if the church discarded it the money saved on printing costs could go to paying for janitors in meeting houses.

Yes your right, just walk into any sacrament meeting and its all about temples, temples, and more temples. That's what the current prophet said his focus was going to be when they had their press conference when monson died. But the trouble with temples in every meeting, from every pulpit, is two things:

1) It discredits and shuns the 90% of members who have real problems and live lives that are complex and outside of the special ones in the temples.

2) It throws out the rest of the world that knows very little if anything of mormondom, Temples is just not of any relevance to Christians, Muslims, atheists, Buddhists, etc.

But what is great about the BOM (or any book) is that anyone can have access to it and maybe learn something.

There is nothing great about the BoM. It is second rate Bible fan fiction. The average M*A*S*H rerun on tv has better ethical lessons, and if they were shown as priesthood meeting lessons, it'd be an improvement.

I want to meet President Nelson dressed as Klinger.

The church is going to end up with a ridiculous number of temples. You eventually hit the law of diminishing returns. When every town has a temple and you get constant pressure to work and go to one. It loses its specialness. Not only that you end up with a lot of buildings that require a huge amount of maintenance to keep them temple pristine. Usually you start to see the maintenance slip with too many buildings. The windows start to look more dirty and things just aren't as tidy. I will laugh when the first temple gets shut down because it's not needed. The last time the church tried to sell it's temples was the 19th century. With over 200 it will happen again. The temple will not be as special or magical as it once was. It's already that way.

So much for it being the keystone of the religion.

And that's really the important bottom line point in all of this. The words of the prophet don't have much of a shelf life.

How much of that "inspired counsel" many of us grew up on is going to be worth anything in 10 years? 25 years? 50 years? 100 years? Beyond? They have really diluted their value by hitching their wagon to some dubious claims and causes.

Mormons like to claim the rest of the world is shifting around like a boat without a rudder, but what do we see in Mormonism--the same thing--maybe worse.

The BOM isn't even well written. Indeed, in order to try to read it, I automatically started correcting it. Without any change in the story line the number of words is cut a third. I can't understand a woman reading it and not recognizing that it did not contain women except for a couple of passages such as "the .... warriors". The Bible at least has some stories about women.

Elder Jeffrey R. Holland has written: “To consider that everything of saving significance in the Church stands or falls on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and, by implication, the Prophet Joseph Smith's account of how it came forth is as sobering as it is true. It is a 'sudden death' proposition.Jan 27, 2004


Over the years I have heard this same proclamation in various forms by other General Authorities.

It seems they are wrong. The Book of Mormon either has failed or is in the Intensive Care Unit and I'm sure people have started adding it to the prayer list in the temple hoping God will stand by it finally. And yet, even with all this, Mormonism is still going strong enough if not robust. Who needs Nephites and Lamanites?

So I must reword, "Everything of saving significance in the Mormon Church stands or falls on the ability of the Gerontocracy to indoctrinate into their subjects that their entire afterlife depends on complete blind obedience to the Brethren. Book? What book?"

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Elder Jeffrey R. Holland has written: “To
> consider that everything of saving significance in
> the Church stands or falls on the truthfulness of
> the Book of Mormon and, by implication, the
> Prophet Joseph Smith's account of how it came
> forth is as sobering as it is true. It is a
> 'sudden death' proposition.Jan 27, 2004
>
>
> Over the years I have heard this same proclamation
> in various forms by other General Authorities.
>
> It seems they are wrong. The Book of Mormon either
> has failed or is in the Intensive Care Unit and
> I'm sure people have started adding it to the
> prayer list in the temple hoping God will stand by
> it finally. And yet, even with all this,
> Mormonism is still going strong enough if not
> robust. Who needs Nephites and Lamanites?
>
> So I must reword, "Everything of saving
> significance in the Mormon Church stands or falls
> on the ability of the Gerontocracy to indoctrinate
> into their subjects that their entire afterlife
> depends on complete blind obedience to the
> Brethren. Book? What book?"


The church still exists because it's good at business and has lot's of money. The church is actually better at business than it is at being a church. What keeps the church going is it got established in the family tradition in many families. It's all about belonging to something and fitting in more than anything it teaches.

I would agree. The church as a business is on solid ground. And the business forte they have going is why the BoM isn't really necessary or as necessary as they think it is. The church does not stand or fall on the Book of Mormon. They have their investments and they have their die hard members like my family. My point is with the latter, what matters is the obedience not the doctrine. My family is out to prove they are the most obedient people on the planet. Faith faith and faith.

And the church as a business works as long as they have enough members to pretend to be a church. They'll be fine. I'm definitely one of those who think it will be around forever.

"Temples are what the church is focusing on."


If temples are to be the new focus of the church formally known as Mormon, won't it be a problem when they have to come forward with the fact that LGBT converts are not allowed in? The rest of the world is promoting tolerance and acceptance in this regard but not the backward thinking No-longer-Mormon church.

The church can go two ways. It can become more liberal like the Community of Christ church and let women be church leaders and perform same sex marriages or it can stay the course.

The Community of Christ lost a lot of big tithing payers going more liberal but they are still there and now they are focusing on appealing to the more liberal minded people.

I think the LDS will just stay the course. The liberals won't like it but it will appeal to the more right wing people. They can keep chugging along that way.

It's closing what niche you want to market to.

Of course the focus is on temples. Its one of their main revenue streams. The tithes must flow!

The church needs the Book of Mormon. It serves as a distraction from the New Testament. If members started reading the NT without the "Mormon" filter they'd discover a whole new Christianity.

Bamboozled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The church needs the Book of Mormon. It serves as
> a distraction from the New Testament. If members
> started reading the NT without the "Mormon" filter
> they'd discover a whole new Christianity.


Amen!

Unfortunately for them, the Book of Mormon is one of the only things that they absolutely can't get rid of if they want to continue to survive.

Their whole schtick is Joseph and the BoM. Yes, it's made up - and if a significant number of members were to be perfectly honest, they know that it's made up. That said, consider what would happen if the church had a press conference tomorrow and said "Joseph did not actually translate the BoM." They would no longer have any claim to apostolic succession, by their own admission. The whole authority that their leadership - from SLC all the way down to the local level - claim would be discredited. Russ Nelson would just be your run of the mill rich old dude. They can't even come out and say that God says that they don't need the Book of Mormon or the JoD/PoGP anymore, as that would go against everything that they know about their theology.

In their quest to become mainstream, they need the BoM. They may try to emulate the Community of Christ (RLDS) and place less emphasis on the Joseph Smith works, but they can't get rid of them completely.

If and when they decide to, they CAN phase out temple worship. My prediction there is that they will start to make temples more accessible to the average member. This will come after another round of watering down the temple ceremony and making it less weird. Less emphasis on handshakes and recitations, more doubling down on warm and fuzzies. After a couple generations, temples just won't be needed anymore.

sparty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Unfortunately for them, the Book of Mormon is one
> of the only things that they absolutely can't get
> rid of if they want to continue to survive.
>
> Their whole schtick is Joseph and the BoM. Yes,
> it's made up - and if a significant number of
> members were to be perfectly honest, they know
> that it's made up. That said, consider what would
> happen if the church had a press conference
> tomorrow and said "Joseph did not actually
> translate the BoM." They would no longer have any
> claim to apostolic succession, by their own
> admission. The whole authority that their
> leadership - from SLC all the way down to the
> local level - claim would be discredited. Russ
> Nelson would just be your run of the mill rich old
> dude. They can't even come out and say that God
> says that they don't need the Book of Mormon or
> the JoD/PoGP anymore, as that would go against
> everything that they know about their theology.
>
> In their quest to become mainstream, they need the
> BoM. They may try to emulate the Community of
> Christ (RLDS) and place less emphasis on the
> Joseph Smith works, but they can't get rid of them
> completely.
>
> If and when they decide to, they CAN phase out
> temple worship. My prediction there is that they
> will start to make temples more accessible to the
> average member. This will come after another round
> of watering down the temple ceremony and making it
> less weird. Less emphasis on handshakes and
> recitations, more doubling down on warm and
> fuzzies. After a couple generations, temples just
> won't be needed anymore.

All you have to do is focus on the young kids. You leave the Book of Mormon for the adults but in primary and Jr. Sunday School focus on Jesus and the bible and never bring up the Book of Mormon. It takes a generation but you can get rid of anything your want or change anything you want. Just start with the kids and by the time all the old believers die off or end up too sick to come to church anymore, you got something new.

My BOM serves a purpose. It conceals the handgun I keep in my nightstand.

I knew around age 12 when I actually started reading the Book of Mormon that it just didn't feel right. Especially when I got to that Isaiah stuff in II Nephi. I wish I had listened to my younger self and avoided a lifetime of trying to find truth where there was obviously none.

I think the Church will gradually back off the truth claims over time till the Book of Mormon will finally become a historical footnote. Then they will do something like what the Reorganized Church did.

hgc2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I knew around age 12 when I actually started
> reading the Book of Mormon that it just didn't
> feel right. Especially when I got to that Isaiah
> stuff in II Nephi. I wish I had listened to my
> younger self and avoided a lifetime of trying to
> find truth where there was obviously none.


And to think that there are people (CES employees) who have actually made a living by promoting that hopelessly implausible garbage that Joe Smith made up


> I think the Church will gradually back off the
> truth claims over time till the Book of Mormon
> will finally become a historical footnote. Then
> they will do something like what the Reorganized
> Church did.

You are speaking AS IF LD$ inc will actually have the ability to do those things or that those actions will actually matter as The foundations of the scam of MORmONISM shatter and crumble underneath their MORmON feet.

When a person/ institution gets knocked out, they have little say about which direction they are going to fall and how they are going to land.

Its purpose is to make existing members feel unique an in possession of something the Not True Churches don't have.

Rubicon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Book of Mormon no longer converts people to
> the church. If it's not doing that it's not
> serving a real purpose.

that deal when the anchor prop for your religion scam becomes more of a distraction than an asset


> It really is nothing more
> than biblical rehash. Ok. Christ visited America.

So Mr. busy resurrected body goes globe hopping to show off after He raises Himself from the dead. .......THEN the divine bastard goes AWOL for 2000 years, except to speak to Joseph Smith about starting ANOTHER Christian/ quasi Christian church ....and to make sure that Joe marries/screws every available female around ....even though Joe does not really want to (EYE ROLL!).

That kind of behavior by Jesus displays a marked detachment and disinterest and even dislike for doing His job and for being the kind of unconditionally loving minister that Jesus is supposed to be. In traditional Christianity, Jesus being physically absent from His ministry for over 2000 years is bad enough. It demonstrates a nasty vicious disregard for those Jesus is supposed to care about and minister to as His followers.

The MORmON version of things where Jesus is hyper ambitious enough to quickly tour American along with all the other highly important resurrection type stuff that He has going on, before going totally AWOL just accentuates the degree of subsequent disregard that MORmON Jesus has toward His messianic ministry, His followers, and actually doing His job.

....it is almost like MORmONISM is a mockery of Christianity!!!

> Well the Yogi Manda's believe Christ visited
> India.
>
> The Book of Mormon brought people into the church
> when America was viewed as the magical land where
> anything can happen.

>Those days are over.

Along with Exponential growth for MORmONISM ....or any real growth for LD$ inc's Book of MORmON scam, along with the MORmON dream of MORmONISM taking over the world, regardless of how the power gluttons at LD$ inc cling to it !

> President Nelson has even said church growth has
> shifted to South America and Africa. He knows
> it's not going to grow in the west anymore.

"the west" AKA the places where the internet service is a commodity .....GUESS WHAT !!! -it is just a matter of time until the internet is a fixture in South America and Africa too. TICK! TOCK! TICK! TOCK!


>
> The real interest in the church is retaining it's
> tithing paying members and you do that with the
> temple recommend. What makes more tithing money
> and keeps people in the church is temple weddings.

That's the advanced end of the MORmON scam. It was something reserved for only the very best and most devout MORmONS.

That is wildly discounting LD$ Inc's easily observable predatory desire and willingness to shake down lots and lots of more casual MORmON members each for a few dollars along the way to add up to a lot of money .....but that is NOT working so well either !!! So the emphasis does go back to more fully stinging the more devout MORmON members who are more willing ( STUPID ENOUGH) to be sucked dry by MORmON causes.

> It's pretty demeaning to be the member of the
> family who can't attend the temple wedding of a
> relative. Most members don't want to be that
> person. So many jump through the hoops to get and
> keep a recommend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i4HC3rZiDo

For those who are still STUPID enough to want to be in the MORmON dog and pony show social club, salvaging/ preserving one's MORmON image is nice, but at what cost ?????? How many thousands of dollars to maintain that good MORmON member image???? There is also a huge amount of embarrassment in being BROKE !!!! by being cleaned out by LD$ Inc again !!!!

More and more, MORmON members simply can not afford being temple worthy, EVEN if they want to.

> Temples are what the church is focusing on.

Things are to the point where it does NOT matter so much what THE (MORmON) church wants to focus on, because LD$ Inc has lost control of its own MORmON message. It is what potential members and potential contributors/offering payers are focusing on that really matters. The thing those potential donor people are focusing on, because they have to, is that STUPID secret and even unmentionable (WORTHLESS!!!!) temple handshakes that have ZERO real efficacy are NOT really worth 10 percent of a person's gross income.

> The
> Book of Mormon is just kind of there. Sure the
> church still puts a big focus on it but that might
> start to be replaced with a general focus on Jesus
> and eternal marriage and eternal families.

LD$ Inc is SCREWED either way !!!!!!!

The Book of MORmON and MORmON temple worship are two major things that make MORmONISM unique and set apart MORmONISM from other Christian denominations. IF MORmONISM does away with those things then it loses it's MORmON identity that MORmONISM needs to stand out from other Christian churches.

Emphasizing those things brings scrutiny to those things, scrutiny that they can not stand up to.

The (IDIOTIC) Book of MORmON can NOT with stand any real scrutiny. MORmONS love Love LOVE to endlessly blabber away about how important their temples are to preserving family association, But then MORmONS have to instantly clam up when it comes to the actual details (STUPID Secret Handshakes and chants) that outsiders are NATURALLY compelled to wonder about after incessant MORmON gushing on the superlative splendor of the MORmON temple.

The thing is: The MORmON temple ceremony is now available on the internet. IF I had that advantage when I was teenager, (40 years ago), after seeing that Hokey MORmON BS for myself prior to being subjected to it, and having a little more suitable time to reconcile myself to the situation, Then I would have left MORmONISM at age 18 instead of being blindsided by the HORRIBLE MORmON temple ceremony and then going on a FOOL time mission at age 19.


> Magic America doesn't sell anymore and so the Book
> of Mormon is just a book a Broadway play that
> mocks the church is named after. Nelson badly
> wants to get rid of the word Mormon.

Nelson might as well wish to have his head amputated too.


> No better
> way than to take the focus off the Book of Mormon

.......than to have the MORmON religion implode !!!!!

You were a teenager 40 years ago, so you must have some memories of Kimball. He was a vastly more destructive fraud than Hinckley or Nelson. Most people, even Latter-day Saints, don't know or remember the details, since Kimball was terrified of non-church media. He craved the private, captive audiences where his malevolent, sadistic impulses would be accepted without question as the will of a Kolobian God.

Check out the speech and video called "When the World will be Converted." It's sheer madness, and we were the cannon fodder for his uncontrollable fantasies.

I still think they need/want it as cheap gimmick.

I agree that I think they may downplay it's significance and decrease it's use but completely ignoring it would be akin to getting rid of the Bible for Christians and the quran for Muslims. It's key to their religion, at least as a reference point.

They don't need investigators, or even members, to read the thing cover to cover, but they can always hold it up in their hand as "evidence" of God's work.

Ex-CultMember Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They don't need investigators, or even members, to
> read the thing cover to cover, but they can always
> hold it up in their hand as "evidence" of God's
> work.

It is the keystone of their relevancy regardless of how relevant it is to them spiritually, factually, or otherwise.

They have a Book!

Many of the Mormons shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible and let us add more good to it with another book!
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/29.3?lang=eng

At some point the BOM will just fade as one of the many tools they used to get people interested in the religion. It is garbage. Other fictional books could do a better job at teaching various morals or life lessons.

Then when members learn as to the real creation of the book of mormon it will fade even more.

The book is a POS.

If I was curious, I'd nose around to check to see how activity rates & mish work are in my former Seattle wards, the first (Queen Anne & Magnolia), the 10th (NW seattle & county left for mish from), & 13th (NE seattle).

Now, I don't care.