When I was a believer -monkees- I used to wonder why Joey went to all the trouble to hand write the gold plate characters onto paper for Martin Harris when all he had to do was to find a piece of charcoal or get a pencil and simply TRACE over the etched so-called reformed eqyptian symbols.

After all copying -tracing- etchings was what the newspapers of the day did to print pictures and I have seen many instances of tracing which was done in the 19th century. It was a common activity.

Also when I used to hear the stories of Joe Joe fighting off the badies who wanted to get the plates I remembered that whoever looked at them would die.

So why didnt he simply warn the bad dudes that they would die and if they ignored him, hey presto they simply dropped dead. No fighting required!

Seems to me he could have left them anywhere without a guard and people would have fallen like flies.

It is hard to get a good rubbing from something that never existed.

So Joe couldn't rub one out ?

Oh, no you didn't!

EXACTLY !!!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxJ7gKIymVo

I'm just trying to understand how I was once so stupid that I actually believed this stuff. I was a convert, so I had no family to brainwash me.

Perhaps Joseph was so soft-hearted that he didn't want his thieving enemies to die? And face a horrible fate in the hereafter? As a Mormon, I was always finding excuses for their claims.

Your so right.

I always ask myself why that no matter how stupid some doctrine was, as an active member I used to always somehow find a way to defend it.

And when I talk to members now they are just the same.

...that if someone wants to believe they can always make up their own bizarre fictional addenda to the story to make it seem like it all adds up.

Supposedly, there were 11 witnesses who (again supposedly) saw the plates. But they were never closely questioned or required to provide any significant level of detail. Nobody ever thought, or was given the opportunity, to sit them down one by one, question them in detail and take notes of their individual descriptions of what they supposedly saw and then compare to see if they matched up.

Of course we later find out that several of them qualified their "eyewitness" testimony by revealing that they saw the plates with "spiritual eyes" (i.e. ordinary human imagination).

If they were real, Joseph easily could have done rubbings using a thin piece of paper and some charcoal. Or could have used clay to make impressions of the characters. Or could have pressed his forehead on one of the plates and then told Martin Harris to hurry over and see the characters on his forehead before they disappeared.

But none of those common-sense things ever happened because...they would only be common-sense things to do IF the plates really existed as claimed.

Who the hell are you Wally. You are one of the brightest stars on here and I actively look for and read everything you say.

I'm just a nobody living in a remote little corner of nowhere special. As a result of thinking my way out of Mormonism over a period of years spanning a period that included a 2-year mission, I've remained fascinated by Mormonism as a subject. In many ways it is a microcosm of many of the problems that exist in human world as a whole, including the phenomenon of human gullibility and the techniques used by elites to exploit and profit from that gullibility.

The witnesses were his money-digging cohorts. They took their testimonies to the grave even after they apostasized. Since the BoM is proven to be a work of fiction, they had to have been bound by some serious skullduggery.

Anyone who knew Joseph knew not to cross him. That’s a reputation. No wonder Briggy loved him.

and business partners would ever "deny" their testimonials concerning the Book of Mormon project.

To deny it would be tantamount to admitting their participation in fraud OR admitting that they were easily duped fools. Neither choice would be acceptable to them--especially since reputation was everything to most people at that time. Having a reputation for honesty and wisdom was almost universally prized.

The standard Mormon argument that the Book of Mormon must be true because the "witnesses" (who were the same people who invested in Joseph Smith's project) never admitted that they were frauds or foolish dupes, is patently absurd.

It's like a situation where some guy is suspected of robbing a bank with three other guys who were wearing masks. The police track down the primary suspect and he's hanging out with three guys. They ask the suspect where he was at the time of the robbery and he claims he was at a lake fishing with his three friends. The three friends then all swear that it was true. They were all fishing together at the lake. Applying the same Mormon logic to this scenario would mean that as long as none of the three friends ever breaks down ans confesses that they were lying about being at the lake, that means that the bank robbery suspect could not have possibly robbed the bank and there's no need to investigate any further or look at any contradictory evidence.

treasure-hunting activity was all about. Gold was the ultimate treasure. And now he was upgrading his treasure-hunting scam to include angels and miracles. So nothing less valuable than gold would do in that new and improved scam story.

Of course there are so many ways in which it is obvious that Joseph Smith didn't really think through the details of his story enough to make it realistic. But then he was dealing with angels and magic translator stones, so the plates were just a plot device in the story. It wasn't essential for the plates to even be physically looked at to be "translated". That's even admitted in the Church's official essays now. Just a rock in a hat was all that was required.

Since the story already falls apart at this point, it's not even necessary to speculate about alternative alloys or other metals being used. Joseph Smith always said that they were gold. Never said anything more about the substance of the plates beyond that. And there is no indication that he ever even looked at the plates when "translating" them.

But to your point about the suitability of pure gold, I think you're right. It wouldn't have been a suitable material, especially when you're stacking plates and burying them under dirt for 1,400 years or so. Just the weight of the upper plates constantly pressing down on the lower plates in the stack probably would have rendered any shallow engravings illegible.

The whole story about the golden plates is just nonsense from start to finish (the finish being the claim that the "angel took them to heaven"). It would have made just as much sense if he had claimed that a unicorn appeared in the woods every Friday just before sundown and words appeared on the unicorn's butt, which turned out to be the ancient record of the Nephites and Lamanites.

Apologists have theorized that the plates were an alloy of gold and copper, with the surface copper removed by dissolving in citric acid. Maybe the reason they’re referred to as “golden plates” is that anybody who understands gold knows they couldn’t have been pure gold. But with a little more research they could learn the plates were made from pure BS.

You left out the stone box, which has also never been found. Must have been swallowed up by the Earth or has an enchanted spell on it.

There’s also supposedly a cave under the Hill Cumorah containing “wagonloads of plates” guarded by an angel. This angel is a slob because the plates are strewn about like unto a teenager’s bedroom. The cave must have moved because ground penetrating radar can’t find it.

IIRC the witnesses left the church after Smith's death and joined the Strangite sect. They also testified of the truth of the Voree plates, the source of Strang's "scriptures."

Those jokers would testify to anything that could make them money.

Inscribing gold would be a poor method of record.

Pure gold (24k) is so soft that fingers can impress on it. Nonmachined inscription would blur over a long time, much like tattoos on old people.

Gold requires an alloy for hardening for most uses, particularly fine inscription.

Not sure of the metallurgical knowledge/technolgy of the time. Ancient goldwork was mostly sculptured rather than inscribed.

Mutliple overuses of “It came to pass” is far easier with a printing press than gold inscription.

[[meant to post this here]]

treasure-hunting activity was all about. Gold was the ultimate treasure. And now he was upgrading his treasure-hunting scam to include angels and miracles. So nothing less valuable than gold would do in that new and improved scam story.

Of course there are so many ways in which it is obvious that Joseph Smith didn't really think through the details of his story enough to make it realistic. But then he was dealing with angels and magic translator stones, so the plates were just a plot device in the story. It wasn't essential for the plates to even be physically looked at to be "translated". That's even admitted in the Church's official essays now. Just a rock in a hat was all that was required.

Since the story already falls apart at this point, it's not even necessary to speculate about alternative alloys or other metals being used. Joseph Smith always said that they were gold. Never said anything more about the substance of the plates beyond that. And there is no indication that he ever even looked at the plates when "translating" them.

But to your point about the suitability of pure gold, I think you're right. It wouldn't have been a suitable material, especially when you're stacking plates and burying them under dirt for 1,400 years or so. Just the weight of the upper plates constantly pressing down on the lower plates in the stack probably would have rendered any shallow engravings illegible.

The whole story about the golden plates is just nonsense from start to finish (the finish being the claim that the "angel took them to heaven"). It would have made just as much sense if he had claimed that a unicorn appeared in the woods every Friday just before sundown and words appeared on the unicorn's butt, which turned out to be the ancient record of the Nephites and Lamanites.

'Tattoos on old people' What?

Just because I now can see my chest tattoo when I go to the toilet doesn't mean that I am old. Does it:)

I believe JS signed the “witnesses” names for them; none of them wrote their own signatures in their own writing, but I could be wrong... been wrong many times before.

But, you could be right!

and that is the only place where the "signed" testimonies ever appeared.

The signatures were all made by one person.

By the most widely accepted account, it was Oliver Cowdery who did most of the final preparation of the written manuscript and Oliver Cowdery wrote in all of the signatures. David Whitmer said that the "Witnesses" gave him permission to sign their names.

No matter how you slice it, the testimonials really are worthless. For one thing, if you're looking for good evidence, you would prefer to have each witness prepare a separate testimony, personally signed.

The Book of Mormon testimonies are basically just a group of investors jointly endorsing a product that they plan to sell for profit.

"We was all there when Big Belly Bob demonstrated his fantastic flying lawn mower that also doubles as a perfect barbecue grill for short ribs and all meats and that also has a precision trimming device attachment that can be used for highly detailed barbering of hair. We all testify that it works as advertised and is a safe and good invention."

-- Signed by one guy on behalf of all of Big Belly Bob's investors

What gold plates. There is NO evidence of the existence of any gold plates

What? You don't believe, you doubt, you sinner you, that Joey ran like an Olympian inspite of his bum leg through the woods carrying those heavy gold plates as if they were light as a feather?

Gawd, or the gawds if you prefer, can produce miracles when he is IN THE MOOD, so you need to get your devilish doubting attitude in reverse mode pronto. And, I do too.