https://www.advocate.com/religion/2018/11/01/orthodox-rabbi-pittsburgh-shooting-caused-gay-parents-holding-bris

New Jersey Orthodox Rabbi Mordechai Aderet publicly advised his followers not to attend a vigil for the victims of the Tree of Life synagogue shooting because the Jews were murdered during a bris for twins adopted by gay parents.

"Somebody came over to me and told me today that he got an email that people should go gather someplace here in town to give the Shema for those 11 people who got killed," the rabbi said in a video that has amassed 10,000 views. "And I still said, I heard it's a Conservative shul, I heard people drove on Shabbat, and I don't think people should join these things."

After remarking that Tree of Life was less strict than the sect of Judaism he adheres to, he went on to say his congregants should not attend the vigil because the local synagogue holding it had held a similar memorial for those murdered in the mass shooting at Pulse nightclub, which he said was "for men to men."

"That's the same people that invited the people two years ago to say Tehillim for those lowlives," Aderet asserted , referring to Pulse victims, whom he called "those sinners, trash."

Tehillim is the Hebrew word for the Book of Psalms, which contains some of the most widely recognized phrases from the Torah.

"That's reason enough not to join these people," said the rabbi.

He then referenced an article published in The Advocate on a report from the Delta Foundation of Pittsburgh, a local LGBTQ group, that the synagogue shooting occurred during a bris or brit milah – a Jewish circumcision ceremony – for a gay couple's twins.

"Do you know what it says on the whole internet, it's called Advocate.com ... you know about who were the parents?" Aderet bellowed. "Hashem said it to me. Two men. This is a brit milah in a Conservative shul and the two men adopted the boy and did the brit milah, and you wonder why there was a massacre?"

He went on to link the violence in Pittsburgh to the shooting in Florida, mistaking the city of Orlando, where Pulse is located, for Miami.

"I'm not sorry for this disaster," he declared. "You attend a brit milah of two men?"

He concluded that those who attended a vigil for the murdered Jews were "spitting in Hashem's face," using a Jewish term for God.

As a Jew, I apologize to everyone--whatever your religion or your personal identity--for our Jewish crazies....

....and, as a fellow Jew, I apologize to everyone who has been personally touched in some way (through marriage, family relationships, friendships, neighbors, those who were once upon a time school friends, fellow military personnel in the service, etc.) to any of the victims of this massacre.

This extremely far, Jewishly reactionary, rabbi is speaking his vitriol out of his own personal limitations, and he is--by Jewish standards--a shanda to us all.

[shanda="disgrace," "embarrassment"]

Every faith, every ethnicity has its jackasses. You don't have any responsibility for the Jewish ones and owe no one an apology.

You are the opposite of "shanda."

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every faith, every ethnicity has its jackasses.
> You don't have any responsibility for the Jewish
> ones and owe no one an apology.
>
> You are the opposite of "shanda."

Thank you, Lot's Wife.

I appreciate your kind words immensely right now.

:(

Not Trump, not either party: hate speech in general.


https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/03/us/pittsburgh-shooting-first-shabbat/index.html

So he was speaking as a man ?

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So he was speaking as a man ?


No, he was speaking as an idiot, and a most destructive idiot:

https://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/the-curse-that-rocked-great-neck

Read (or skim) this article and you will understand. There is something definitely "wrong" with this guy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 02:54AM by Tevai.

So is he one of those @$$h01es who spits on little girls ?

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So is he one of those @$$h01es who spits on little
> girls ?

Yes.

Precisely.

My Conservative rabbi addressed our congregation yesterday by saying there are orthodox sects who do not recognize the Conservative, Reform, or other branches of Judaism as Jewish.

The Orthodox, not Ultra Orthodox, were asking why mourn for those lost as though they are Jewish?

Clearly if you're Conservative or other than orthodox branch of Judaism, still makes them Jewish. Apparently not to the Orthodox during a massacre such as Squirrel Hill.

They are Jewish, whether young or old, gay or straight. The rabbi from NJ needs a heart makeover the size of New Jersey. NJ and Israel are roughly the same size. The intellects of rabbis however, vary widely.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My Conservative rabbi addressed our congregation
> yesterday by saying there are orthodox sects who
> do not recognize the Conservative, Reform, or
> other branches of Judaism as Jewish.

Yes, including the Chief Rabbinate (either one of the Chief Rabbis: Ashkenazi [or] Sephardi) of Israel. This generally isn't a problem for non-Orthodox Jews in the diaspora, and any problems in Israel can usually be finessed by decades of wisdom learned by the non-Orthodox Jews who live in Israel (who are the majority part of the Israeli populace).


> The Orthodox, not Ultra Orthodox, were asking why
> mourn for those lost as though they are Jewish?

No one is questioning the Jewish status of any of the individuals who were involved in the massacre. By Jewish law, a Jew is:
1) Someone born of a Jewish mother, OR:
2) Someone who has converted to Judaism

I have no doubt at all that every Jew who was massacred was a Jew according to Jewish law, and at least one of the ultra-right-wing Jewish fringe aside, "no one" is questioning their status as Jews, regardless of which movement within Judaism they have chosen as their own.


> Clearly if you're Conservative or other than
> orthodox branch of Judaism, still makes them
> Jewish.

Yes. Absolutely accurate.


> Apparently not to the Orthodox during a
> massacre such as Squirrel Hill.

It is NOT "the Orthodox"--it is ONE Jewish, possibly mentally disturbed, guy who is giving his general geographical area (and North America, not to mention Israel) some real grief right now. Please read (or skim) this article about him:

https://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/the-curse-that-rocked-great-neck


> They are Jewish, whether young or old, gay or
> straight.

100% correct, and fully in accord with Halacha (Jewish law).


> The rabbi from NJ needs a heart makeover
> the size of New Jersey. NJ and Israel are roughly
> the same size.

From the article, I think he may be having some mental problems right now--I don't know "why" (stroke, dementia, Alzheimer's, etc.), but he is not exhibiting normal behavior for an adult human being, let alone a rabbi.


> The intellects of rabbis however, vary widely.

This is a true statement, but rabbis are required to learn so much, and analyze so much, in order to achieve smicha (Jewish ordination), that they are usually above-average smart. Another indication that he may be going through some serious physiological problems with either his brain, or with some body process which directly affects brain functioning.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 03:30AM by Tevai.

a few posts back.

It makes me feel sad to realize that there are some rabbis who are just as meshugganah (sp??) as some of the wilder-eyed Christians and other variations.

Religion, generally OK if not taken too seriously.

Crazy, very often NOT OK.

catnip Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> a few posts back.

When you asked the question, I didn't realize what you were actually asking for.

I am glad I finally said the right word!!

:)


> It makes me feel sad to realize that there are
> some rabbis who are just as meshugganah (sp??) as
> some of the wilder-eyed Christians and other
> variations.

"Some" rabbis means (unfortunately for Jews as a whole): a large percentage of those on the far right extreme of the Jewish Orthodox spectrum.

In Israel, this particular sub-set of rabbis is trying to "erase" females from visibility (or "audiability") in public and, because of incursions into private spaces (such as TV or radio within the home), from these "spaces" as well.

These particular, meshugganah (great spelling, catnip!), rabbis want females to "disappear" from news broadcasts, entertainment programs, public service announcements, billboards and other kinds of advertising (with some limited exceptions), and (to a large extent) from, for example, public educational lectures of various kinds on TV.

One of the fundamental "problems," as THEY see it, is "kol isha": the actual voices of women--because, in some of the Jewish texts, there is a prohibition against men hearing the "voices of women" (especially singing) since these sounds are supposed to be especially [sexually] enticing to males. (Men who are super-Orthodox observant are only allowed to hear the "voice" of their wives, and their daughters, so long as their daughters have not yet reached a prescribed (varies by the definition of the specific group) age. (I assume the voices of their mothers, aunts, and grandmothers are also permissible. ;) )

Among the Orthodox generally, this has been one of the problems which needed to be addressed when it comes to women cantors (especially), and also women rabbis (some of whom would be, at least sometimes, teachers of adolescent and young adult male students in yeshivot, which are institutions where the Jewish texts are studied around the clock and, mostly, around the ritual year).

So yes, we Jews do certainly have some meshugganah, Orthodox to an almost unfathomable extreme, rabbis amongst us!

We do what we can, when we can, to make "it" (whatever "it" is) better, and the rest of the time, we just roll with it.

Tevye lived in a much different place and time, but I think he would have understood.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2018 05:26PM by Tevai.

I didn't see in the article the rabbi is "ultra" orthodox. Only orthodox. His views are as hateful as the most vile anti-Semitics on the face of the earth.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I didn't see in the article the rabbi is "ultra"
> orthodox. Only orthodox. His views are as hateful
> as the most vile anti-Semitics on the face of the
> earth.

Read (or skim) this article--he IS "haredi," it is the second word in the sub-title.

https://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/the-curse-that-rocked-great-neck

He does seem to be acting out of an uncontrollable urge to spread fear and hate speech. Who goes to a child's birthday party to curse those in attendance?

Not normal by any stretch of the imagination.

I have been told nonetheless, by conservative women of my sisterhood, that the orthodox community does consider itself more Jewish than Conservative, Reform, and other sects. There is a form of shunning by the Orthodox toward other sects including family members. The woman from sisterhood told me that this may help explain in part why my daughter is shunning her family, because that is the orthodox way for observant Israelis. She knows of many Orthodox Jews who shun their non-Orthodox but otherwise Jewish family. They don't recognize them as fully Jewish, despite Halacha laws decreeing otherwise.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have been told nonetheless, by conservative
> women of my sisterhood, that the orthodox
> community does consider itself more Jewish than
> Conservative, Reform, and other sects.

Uh....there is a HUGE spectrum of difference between Modern Orthodox, on the sort of "left" of the Orthodox spectrum, and the haredim (the crazies) of all kinds on the "right" side of the Orthodox spectrum, yet all consider themselves, and are considered by other Jews, to be Orthodox.

Remember that there is "crazy" ultra-religious behavior, and personal beliefs, which exist within Christianity as well.

(I once lived with a Hispanic Catholic family where the mother of the family would periodically, in order to gain favor with God, "walk" the block around their local Catholic church on her knees, flesh directly on the concrete sidewalks, until her knees were bloody, when she needed some particular favor from God. She considered that, compared to the crucifixion of Jesus, her pulped knees (and the prolonged period of healing required afterwards to regain her leg flexibility) "nothing." Christian literature throughout history has virtually always, to my knowledge, had a sub-set of similar stories throughout different cultures and many different Christian sub-sets--for example: the secretive Penitentes in northern New Mexico, who reinact the crucifixion of Jesus, using one of their members as a stand in on the cross.)


> There is a form of shunning by the Orthodox toward other
> sects including family members. The woman from
> sisterhood told me that this may help explain in
> part why my daughter is shunning her family,
> because that is the orthodox way for observant
> Israelis.

Yes, this goes on all the time among the haredim, including right here in the United States when (commonly) haredi offspring go OTD ("Off The Derech," meaning: Off The "Right" Way) to live more mainstream Orthodox lives within the larger Jewish community.

There are support groups (like RfM, only in person) throughout haredi-heavy areas of the United States (especially New York's more concentrated Jewish communities) to help these refugees from haredi life make that transition, since many of them need to develop the life skills (in English--because they grow up as Yiddish speakers, in math, in American "common sense") to create successful lives outside of the haredi spectrum.


> She knows of many Orthodox Jews who shun
> their non-Orthodox but otherwise Jewish family.

This is true for haredim--but NOT TRUE for mainstream ("Modern") Orthodox. There are lots and lots of haredim in New York though, so this does depend, to a large extent, on where a given person lives, and what particular haredi community they are a part of. The haredim are NOT a monolithic group (there are many haredi sub-groups, often headed by self-appointed leaders), so what is true for one given haredi may not be true for other haredim geographically near, but living under the leadership of ANOTHER leader.


> They don't recognize them as fully Jewish, despite
> Halacha laws decreeing otherwise.

I do not know of ANY haredi group which, in effect, questions the "Jewishness" of another Jew (except for converts; most every haredi would dispute the Jewishness of any convert from another leader, another group, another part of the Jewish spectrum--particularly the mainstream American Jewish denominations: Conservative, Reconstructionist, Reform, secular/humanist, and there are others as well).

Converts to Judaism aside, though, a Jew by the standards of halacha (Jewish law)--meaning: the mother who gave birth to them is a Jew according to Jewish law--is a Jew.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 09:11AM by Tevai.

Some older lifelong member of my shul once quipped only those raised Jewish were Jewish. His brother is two years older than he, 90 now, and very supportive of members such as myself. Differing attitudes among members. More are much more accepting than not.

One of the men leaders I questioned on it - it's been several years ago told me that was nonsense, and that I was fully Jewish. Our then rabbi, now retired and moved to Israel, made me feel very welcome there and at ease even though I wasn't raised a Jew. He and I share the same birthday he pointed out when he was writing my daughter's and my letter for Aliyah. He also noted my grand uncle of blessed memory, who made the move from Omaha to Salt Lake City over 100 years ago with my great and gggrandmothers also shared the same birthday. He was a most observant rabbi. :)

We had converts come there to be mikvahed by our then rabbi. He was very beloved.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 09:32AM by Amyjo.

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism

Thank you for posting this, anybody.

It is appreciated. :)

"The word Haredi is often used in the Jewish diaspora in place of the term "ultra-Orthodox", which many view as inaccurate or offensive, it being seen as a derogatory term suggesting extremism; English-language alternatives that have been proposed include "fervently Orthodox", "strictly Orthodox", or "traditional Orthodoxy". Others, however, dispute the characterization of the term as pejorative. Ari L. Goldman, a professor at Columbia University, notes that the term simply serves a practical purpose to distinguish a specific part of the Orthodox community, and is not meant as pejorative. Others, such as Samuel Heilman, criticized terms such as "ultra-Orthodox" and "traditional Orthodox", arguing that they misidentify Haredim as more authentically Orthodox than others, as opposed to adopting customs and practises that reflect their desire to separate from the outside world."

How awful !
How much more sorrow can people endure?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 02:08AM by kathleen.

kathleen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How awful !
> How much more sorrow can people endure?

Thanks, kathleen.

Your words of very much appreciated.

"PITTSBURGH — Jews and gentiles gathered in synagogues, community centers and college campuses around the world one week after a gunman killed 11 at a synagogue in Squirrel Hill, a historic Jewish neighborhood in Pittsburgh. Many took the opportunity during services on Friday night and Saturday morning to embrace and say two simple words: “Shabbat Shalom.”

The phrase is a traditional Hebrew greeting used to wish others a peaceful Sabbath.

The deadly attack on Oct. 27 led the American Jewish Committee and the Jewish Federations of North America to create a campaign and hashtag that encouraged people to “#ShowUpForShabbat” this week — regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof.

Rabbi Noam Marans, the American Jewish Committee’s Director of Interreligious and Intergroup Relations, wrote a column on Thursday encouraging all to attend services, stating that “This Shabbat cannot be like any other Shabbat.”

“Synagogues all over the world will be more filled, rather than less filled,” Marans wrote. “We will not run away. We will not cower. We will not allow the hate of a few to drive out the love of the many. We have been blessed by the many beyond the Jewish community who have joined us in our sorrow and defiance, not only by their presence in our synagogues this Shabbat, but by their statements and vigils of solidarity, declaring unequivocally: We are all Jews.”

Congregations as far from Pittsburgh as Hiroshima, Japan, and London held services for anyone wishing to take part. In Boston, 1,500 people attended services on Friday night to support the victims of last week’s shooting....

In the days since the shooting, Pittsburgh residents have marched, prayed and sang with their Jewish neighbors to show their support. Thousands attended services across the city on Friday and Saturday to stand against the anti-Semitic attack.

Joanne Rogers, the wife of Fred Rogers, who created PBS’s“Mister Rogers," attended and spoke about the tragedy during Friday night services in Squirrel Hill, where the couple raised their two children.

“The most important thing is the love and the care that came out of that from the people here,” Joanne Rogers said. “And that won’t go away — it won’t. We just can’t let it go away.”

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/thousands-across-globe-showupforshabbat-honor-squirrel-hill-victims-n930851



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 04:23AM by Amyjo.

A lot of fundamentalists of a lot of religions think as he does.
Jerry Falwell, after 911, blamed that attack on the gays, abortionists, pagans, etc
Islam has a lot of fundamentalist also
A lot of Jews consider certain sects of the ultra orthodox as a cult too
The Chief Rabbinate of Israel dictate who is a Jew .
They even have a list of Rabbis in the U.S, and they dictate which ones who are “ official “ or not
They throw rocks at cars , or spit on people who drive through their communities , or aren’t dressed appropriately on Shabbas.

There are fundamentalists/extremists in every religion. All we can hope for is that they don't get violent.

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> http://beautyisinside.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/
> 10/FirstTheyCame-1-560x560.png

This is very muchly appreciated, Dave.

Thank you!!

A separate issue is how disappointing it feels to me that they were celebrating by mutilating a child's genitals at the time. I mean, I know that is what they are doing all the time, but somehow I wish that was not what they had been celebrating.

If a group is open enough to accept a gay couple I find it odd that they can't figure out a way to STOP doing that to baby boys. (Yeah, I know, culture law, custom, identity, yada yada). I mean, surely they could find a work around for this.

If there is a medical reason or decision to circumcise, it should be done in a medical facility, not by allowing a "celebration" or exposing a child's penis (let alone touching it) in church. I have a hard time differentiating which ones are indeed the "crazies" when this kind of ritual is so celebrated.


But I digress. No matter how abhorrent the rituals or where they are on the spectrum of how they cherry pick, people do not need to be doing anything noble to deserve our outrage that they were attacked. Anywhere. I will defend their right to worship and meet. I am moved by the tributes I have seen to the victims. They were loved by their community, that is clear.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A separate issue is how disappointing it feels to
> me that they were celebrating by mutilating a
> child's genitals at the time. I mean, I know that
> is what they are doing all the time, but somehow I
> wish that was not what they had been celebrating.
>
>
> If a group is open enough to accept a gay couple I
> find it odd that they can't figure out a way to
> STOP doing that to baby boys. (Yeah, I know,
> culture law, custom, identity, yada yada). I mean,
> surely they could find a work around for this.
>
> If there is a medical reason or decision to
> circumcise, it should be done in a medical
> facility, not by allowing a "celebration" or
> exposing a child's penis (let alone touching it)
> in church. I have a hard time differentiating
> which ones are indeed the "crazies" when this kind
> of ritual is so celebrated.

Hi, dagny:

I have been thinking about this post since I read it earlier today because it is a very complex subject, with conflicting aspects, and the changing perceptions of people and of cultures over the past about three thousand years, right up to today.

One of the things I have always remembered about Ray Bradbury was that he, very eloquently, maintained that he REMEMBERED his circumcision, which occurred when he was a newborn infant. He was absolutely NOT (in any way!!!!) Jewish, but in the place and time where he was born, circumcision had become a general, routine, American cultural practice, and so he, as a newborn infant, was circumcised--something he was angry about for all of the rest of his life. Since I was in his company a great deal of the time for many years, his verbalized anger is easy to recall, and it remains, in my thinking process, always.

Second: When I converted to Judaism (through the Conservative Movement, which observes the halachic, "Jewish law," requirements of conversion), we had about a hundred people in "our class," maybe about [estimated] half of us actually converting. (The others were born Jews who had married non-Jews, or engaged couples where one person was a Jew and the other not a Jew--and they had made the mutual decision to have a Jewish marriage and, in most cases, an eventual Jewish family.)

Divide the converting half of the class in half (because we were about even, males and females), and you have about twenty-five or so males who needed (because it is a requirement of Jewish law) to have either full circumcisions (they had never been circumcised previously), or "symbolic" circumcisions (for those who HAD, previously, been circumcised). Regardless of whether a "full" or a "symbolic" circumcision was required, all of the males who were converting were handed (in class) a list of doctors who were ALSO qualified mohels (Jewish "circumcisors").

They picked out whichever doctor they wanted from that list, made an appointment (for the doctor's regular office hours), and then showed up for the procedure. (As I remember, they all had a two-week "window" to get their circumcisions/symbolic circumcisions done, because the wounds had to be completely healed, and totally scab-free, by the time we, as a class, went through our mikvah [ritual bath]--for us, as a group, in the Pacific Ocean.)

The result was that all of their appointments, regardless of which doctor they chose, clustered together in about a ten-day period, so....

Our class AFTER they all got their procedures quickly became an interrogation from all of us women: What happened? HOW did it happen? Was it painful? How much (if "any") did they bleed? How long did the circumcision wound take to heal? How did they feel that particular evening when we females were questioning them (our conversion class was at night, at a Jewish university)? What was the overall experience like, step-by-step?

So all of us, the females in our class, got very straightforward, very detailed, descriptions of a number of different full circumcisions, and a number of different symbolic circumcisions. ("Symbolic" circumcision means: the proper blessings for this procedure are said, the doctor takes a sterile surgical needle and uses it to draw a single drop of blood which appears on the surface of the penis. Otherwise, both "full" Jewish circumcisions and "symbolic" Jewish circumcisions are the exact same for everyone.)

So, from my perspective, I have heard the personal accounts of men (about twenty-five of them) who, as adults, have either been fully circumcised, or a doctor (with a sterile surgical needle) produced a single drop of blood from the head of their penis.

The surprise for us women was that there was unanimous (so far as I was aware) male agreement that the "symbolic" circumcisions were more painful than were the "full" circumcisions. No one expected this, so it was an unexpected takeaway I am pretty sure all or most of us have continued to remember.

Aside from the actual medical procedure itself, the other main aspect of Jewish circumcision has to be seen in the light of Jewish history, going back to ancient times, then through the Holocaust, and then into contemporary times right now.

For the past 2,500+ years, Jews have been killed--often: a lot. They have been forcibly taken from their homes and their lands and forcibly "dispersed" across the planet, and they have been (on multiple occasions) selected by the powers-that-be for extermination--often by horrific means of various kinds.

I listened to a video on YouTube earlier today which was titled something like: "Judaism is not a religion," and it was a pretty good video, because it explained why (almost alone among the "religions" on the planet) Jews are, at base, NOT a "religion" so much as they are a tribe. [My term, but it is an accurate term.]

I have said many times here on RfM: "If you are Jewish, no one CARES what you "believe"--and this is true....no one Jewish CARES what another Jew "believes" (religious "beliefs" are considered an individual's private and personal business, and literally NOT the business of anyone else).

What Jews DO care about is: Are "you," as a Jew or as a prospective Jew, a trustworthy member of the tribe? (With the sub-text: If the Moffen [Nazis] come again, are you going to defend the tribe and your fellow tribal members, or are you going to sell out if an appealing offer (of any kind) is made to you to sell out the rest of us?

For Jews, circumcision for males is a permanent way to, without any words being necessary, "swear" commitment to your fellow Jews, even if the times get unspeakably and unenduringly horrible.

Go to any synagogue I am aware of, and the stranger sitting next to you, or a couple of seats away, or whoever is on the bimah (the rabbi, or the cantor, or the person given the honor of reading the weekly Torah portion) has been personally touched by the Holocaust in some way.

In so many different ways, the "footprint" of the Holocaust still visibly and viscerally exists, in living people (an unavoidable legacy from their grandparents, great-grandparents, other relatives, other crucial people in the lives of different families).

Right now, right here (and it seems to be always true--no matter how far away from the Holocaust we get) people have been murdered for just being with their fellow Jews in a Shabbat worship service, and it happened ONLY because they were Jews.

My own conclusion to all of this is that, in some way, circumcision for Jewish males is important, both on an individual level, and on the level of the entire heterogeneous (racially/ethnically/religiously/culturally) people that are the Jewish people, the Jewish TRIBE, worldwide. This may not make any sense to non-Jews, nor should it necessarily, but it DOES make sense to most Jews (whether they are Jews by birth, or Jews by choice).

I fully understand if no one who isn't Jewish doesn't understand the feelings I am trying to convey here, but I don't have the words available to say, with any additional clarity, what I am feeling, and what I am "discerning" as a member of the tribe.

[That being said: I am also glad that, as a female, my conversion to Judaism did NOT involve any surgical modification of my genitals!]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 04:33PM by Tevai.

Dont most Jews other than the ultra Orthodox have someone trained do the circumcision?
When I was growing up boys were routinelly circumcized and apparently there are some health benefits attached. I dont know anyone personally who is complaining about it. They dont consider themselves mutilated or complain that they cant enjoy sex. Whether I would have a hypothetical son circumcized , I dont know. I would want more info and of course the father has a say too. As for touching the penis, with babies that happens with every bath and diaper change.If it doesnt, the kid isnt being properly cleaned.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 07:17PM by bona dea.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dont most Jews other than the ultra Orthodox
> havensomeone trained do the circumcision?

Mohels (Jewish circumcisors) need to be Jewish, they need to be able to say the correct blessings for the ritual, they need to go through some kind of training program (used to be as an apprenticeship; in contemporary times, there are medically-oriented certification training programs), and mohels can be of either gender.

(There is ancient precedent for women mohels in the Old Testament, there are contemporary training programs which accept both male and female students, and there are a number of qualified female mohels in the United States today.)

For MOST Jews (on a practical basis: excluding the ultra-Orthodox, who generally have their own, equally ultra-Orthodox, mohels), mohels today are often medical licensees (doctors, etc.), who have taken and graduated from a "Jewish mohel" training program (this is a relatively short process, especially since the students enter as existing medical professionals).

> When I was growing up boys were routinelly
> circumcized and apparently there are some health
> benefits attached. I dont know anyone personally
> who.is complaining about it. They dont consider
> themselves mutilated or complain that they cant
> enjoy sex. Whether I would have amhypothetical son
> circumcized , I dont know. I would want more info
> and of course the father has a say.

All is true (with the prominent exception of the late Ray Bradbury!).

Specifically re: the ultra-Orthodox: There is an ultra-Orthodox, Ashkenazi, custom going back (evidently) a long time into past history and Eastern European culture, where the ultra-Orthodox mohel (ALWAYS a male in these specific ultra-Orthodox instances, I would assume!) makes the surgical cut, and then takes the boy's bleeding penis into the mohel's mouth and uses his [the mohel's] own mouth and saliva to clean the bleeding wound. In current times, this has created serious disease transmission (herpes, most particularly) within these highly-sequestered communities, and it has become a real problem in highly ultra-Orthodox, Ashkenazi communities such as exist in the New York City area.

Although there are contrasting opinions, circumcision in general (the NON-ultra-Orthodox kind!) is credited with greatly reducing the future potential of HIV and many other sexually-transmitted diseases (including urinary tract infections, which are well known for the ease with which they can be passed to female partners).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 06:10PM by Tevai.

Thank you. That is what I thought.

You would have to *really* want to convert to go through that as an adult.

We circ'd babies when I was actively nursing - no anesthesia, just a sugar water-type soother in their mouth. It took seconds to do the deed and many babies didn't cry at all. Some did. It was widely seen as a strong cultural preference in the general population and the prevailing thought was that you wouldn't want your son to be "different" from all the other kids at school.

Too, it was seen as a medical procedure as it was taught that it was more hygienic to be circumcised.

Time change. For some folks.

As a religious practice I can't judge it really, subject as I have been to becoming a JW, moving across the country to preach the word in another language to a group of highly religious people who had zero interest in leaving their own faith (strong Catholic) as well as being an LDS "convert", jumping unwillingly at that point into their font and making myself miserable for three years afterwards trying to live up to "covenants" I didn't know or understand and couldn't explain. Then there were the charismatic nuns in their trailer in the middle of nowhere. So yeah. I can't judge anybody else's fervent beliefs...

Thanks for your response. Your comments were similar to most apologetic defenses of the practice I have read.

I didn't know about Ray Bradbury. I highly doubt he "remembered" his circumcision but OK (he had a pretty good imagination).

I do think that the practice has become associated with higher middle and upper socio-economic class in our culture which drives the practice.

I also believe there is an uptick in voices against the practice and we may see more who do not undergo the procedure in the next generation. When there are more uncut kids, the social pressure to look like the other kids won't be as acute. The heightened awareness of female mutilation has brought more conversation about this less harmful related practice.

There are only a few further comments I have based on your reply.

In the course of my early career I have witnessed a few circumcisions (infant and adult) - and been involved with the ones that went wrong (sepsis or transfusions). Surgery is not to be taken lightly (just ask Joan Rivers).

I can't think of anything Mormons could do as an official ritual that is as invasive to personal boundaries and detestable. We are all conditioned to accept religious practices without a lot of criticism but I also believe that is changing when it comes to children who cannot speak for themselves

>>So, from my perspective, I have heard the personal accounts of men (about twenty-five of them) who, as adults, have either been fully circumcised, or a doctor (with a sterile surgical needle) produced a single drop of blood from the head of their penis.

That screams BAD, controlling, and cult. I don't care how old the practice is.

>>Aside from the actual medical procedure itself, the other main aspect of Jewish circumcision has to be seen in the light of Jewish history, going back to ancient times, then through the Holocaust, and then into contemporary times right now.

OK, I get the victim tribe history. I get that they cherry pick individually what they want to believe. We've already discussed the ridiculous "laws" that they break however they want. Babies can't make decisions however.

>>What Jews DO care about is: Are "you," as a Jew or as a prospective Jew, a trustworthy member of the tribe? (With the sub-text: If the Moffen [Nazis] come again, are you going to defend the tribe and your fellow tribal members, or are you going to sell out if an appealing offer (of any kind) is made to you to sell out the rest of us?

It sounds like you are equating the practice to something like a loyalty gang tattoo.

For several generations, non-Jews also picked up the custom so it doesn't make sense to me that in modern times the persecuted but extremely successful and powerful tribe (Jews) can view that as a loyalty sign of commitment.

>>For Jews, circumcision for males is a permanent way to, without any words being necessary, "swear" commitment to your fellow Jews, even if the times get unspeakably and unenduringly horrible.
[That being said: I am also glad that, as a female, my conversion to Judaism did NOT involve any surgical modification of my genitals!]

Yet you were OK with them doing this to male babies because, well, the tribe has been persecuted and it's a great tribal thing to do.
Babies have no knowledge of the horrible history. It must be taught to them and somehow made to associate that their penis was modified to belong. Maybe they should use words.

I know the OT has lots of weird foreskin references. Using foreskin as some kind of symbol is just barbaric. What do women do that is equivalent? Are they not supposed to show the same commitment by having their clitoris poked with a needle in honor of the Holocaust as you described for the men?

I can't imagine seeking that out by choice - maybe too much anthropology has made me an observer of ritual and not a participant. Tradition has a hold on people like nothing else.

All I can repeat is Mormons are amateurs when it comes to doing crazy things and convincing people to perpetuate and defend them.


I have no doubt I am in the minority in my views about this topic here, but I credit the readers of our posts to be able to see both sides of the issue. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I do get a little tired of posters quoting the dumbest of the dumb in regard to religion and implying that they are the norm. It really isnt honest. Tevai, you have no need to apologize. All groups have idiots and that includes the non believers.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do get a little tired of posters quoting the
> dumbest of the dumb in regard to religion and
> implying that they are the norm. It really isnt
> honest. Tevai, you have no need to apologize. All
> groups have idiots and that includes the non
> believers.

Thank you!

:)

all this Wasted Energy; Sheesh!