I want to commit suicide on the last day that I am able to do so.

I have a brother in law who is about to die from cancer. About six months ago he was having a lot of pain in his chest so he went to his doctor. After tests and analysis the doctor figured out that my BIL had stage-4 cancer of the esophagus.

The doctors started treating my BIL with radiation and chemo therapy. Initially the treatment appeared to be doing some good, but then a full exam revealed that he had a tumor on his liver. There was not a cure available for that cancer so the doctors discontinued all treatment.

So my BIL has been slowly dying a very painful death from cancer. He went past the point where he could voluntarily commit suicide.

He is spending his final days in a lot of pain and not having any enjoyment in life. If I were in the same situation I would like to commit suicide and get the inevitable death over with.

He has reached the point where he is likely do die from the cancer in a day or two. His past few months have been pure misery. If I ever reach that point I want to commit suicide to put me out of my pain.


(NB: Subject line edited by moderator to make it more neutral)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 11:33AM by Maude.

Oregon has had assisted suicide for years. Makes me think about moving there. We treat our animal friends better than our human friends when it comes to the end of life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 11:34AM by Maude.

Dorothy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oregon has had assisted suicide for years. Makes
> me think about moving there. We treat our animal
> friends better than our human friends when it
> comes to the end of life.

We really are to the point of where modern medicine can prolong life to where an individual isn't living any kind of quality existence.

My dad had a new heart procedure that gave him ten more years of life but it was not a quality ten years. He continued to slip into dementia and my poor mom got burned out no longer being able to take care of him. His last two years were in an assisted living home where he was just miserable. Every time I visited him he was like get me out of this damn place, I want to go home! When I got the call my dad was dying I went up to see him. He had pneumonia and they had put him on morphine. He was struggling to breath and you could hear the fluid in his lungs. It was like watching a fish out of water struggling to breath and it was awful. When he finally passed away I felt relief.

Assisted suicide opens up a whole pandora's box of ethical issues. The main one is who get's to play God? Then of course it can be abused legally justifying in getting rid of people the state doesn't want around. You open the door to that.

No easy answers.

I'm with Saviorself. At that point, I wouldn't really care what is or is not legal. My life is mine to choose.

Rubicon,

I think you inadvertently raised the key question: "who gets to play God?"

The assumption underlying that sentence is that God gets to choose whether people live or die. I would argue that God has no place in that decision. It should be up to the individual.

Who gets to play individual? The individual whose life it is.

Seems to me that without modern medicine, "God" would have ended those artificially prolonged lives much sooner. I don't see assisted suicide as "playing God". I see it as allowing people a compassionate end if there is no hope that they can recover their health.

My dad died in 2014. It was kind of sudden. He had emergency gallbladder surgery and was not able to recover from the anesthesia. He also had Lewy Body Dementia and had pretty much lost his mind. Fortunately, he and my mom talked a lot about his wishes before he got sick. When it became clear that he wasn't going to recover, my mom decided to let him go. He died two days after he was taken off life support. It was a peaceful end after several years of suffering. I'm glad no one had a problem with letting him go. I hope when it's my time, there will be an easier way for people to exit before they have to spend their last days in a painful struggle.

I never have understood the prolonging of life.

My dad had his arm amputated when I was five as he had cancer in his hand that was spreading up his arm. He continued to have little flare ups but the doctors were able to keep it remission.

I came home from my mission and Dad's cancer had re-surged and they had now amputated his right leg and hip.

Mom and I took dad to the hospital in October for a check up and it was found that the cancer had spread through out his body. He was discharged from the hospital in December and we brought him home. His care was completely up to mom. He slipped into a coma and had to have Morphine shots every two hours or he would wake up screaming.

They were financially busted but my aunt, (dad's sister who was the head nurse at the LDS hospital was able to secure some bottles of Morphine for him. In early January, mom suffered a heart attack brought on by her constant care and diligence in caring for dad. She lay on the sofa with dad in the hospital bed in the middle of the room. My sister and I took over dad's care and helping mom as we could.

Around the 10th of January, my aunt called and I gave her an update. About thirty minutes after she hung up, the doctor, who had an office across the street, knocked on the door. He said he was there to check on dad and mom. He gave dad a shot to insure he was not in pain and left.

About thirty minutes later mom got up from the sofa and checked on dad. She simply said, "He is gone".

Read into this what you may. It is my belief that the doctor had helped out in an impossible situation. When I called my aunt to let her know she was short and quick and told me to immediately box up the remaining Morphine and send it to her.

We were all numb from the intense vigil that had gone on. It was a relief that it was over. Dad's intense fight with cancer had gone on for over 16 years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 11:34AM by Maude.

I like the idea of being in control of when I die too. My concern is not knowing when that last day to do so has passed.


I will do the right thing for my old dog when it is time if she is suffering. I wonder if I would have the courage to do the same for myself.


I admire families who are able to support their loved ones that way - especially with cancer. It's heartbreaking.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 11:35AM by Maude.

I'm a huge fan of death with dignity because I'm also a huge fan of LIFE with dignity. If I can't live independently, if I can't take care of myself, if my brain starts to go, then it's time for me to check out. What's the point of prolonging a life you're not enjoying?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 11:35AM by Maude.

Actually it is not so much prolonging life as it is postponing death. My DW died from lung cancer a year ago. We discovered it in mid september and she was gone mid October. It was fast and she suffered very little. I don't know what I would have done had there been prolonged suffering.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 11:35AM by Maude.

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually it is not so much prolonging life as it
> is postponing death.

Exactly.

To outlive yourself is a fate worse than death.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 11:36AM by Maude.

I am very much in favor of people being able to determine for themselves that "enough is enough."

One very valuable thing I found out when I was my aunt's primary caregiver, when she was dying of pancreatic cancer, is that the morphine syrup which is prescribed for end-of-life patients is not only a painkiller, but also has the effect of gradually depressing life functions, which means that it kind of eases the physiological way into death.

This is California, so I don't know if other states are allowed to use this particular way to "kill pain" (which it DOES do)--AND, as the primary caregiver for what turned out to be three people as they died (after my aunt, my Mom the next day, and my father a couple of years later), I am very much in favor of it if a smoother and swifter way to death is the patient's wish.

Be aware that this is a legally fraught area, probably very especially in certain particular states, so direct questions to doctors or other medical personnel (such as hospice nurses) may not be answered either entirely factually, or with the most communicative words.

I do think that the person dying has rights, specifically in this case, the right to say: Enough is enough.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 12:52PM by Tevai.

One of my closest relatives -- I was her next of kin -- died in California last spring. She was in her last stage of life when she went into the hospital, comatose, organs shutting down slowly. I expressed strongly to the attending physician that she wouldn't want to be kept alive in this state, or artificially, and moreover she had a standing order (signed by me) to that effect. The doctor said, "Then I will put her on a morphine drip and keep her on it." And in less than 10 hours she was gone. It was a mercy whatever finally made it happen.

Anonymized Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One of my closest relatives -- I was her next of
> kin -- died in California last spring. She was in
> her last stage of life when she went into the
> hospital, comatose, organs shutting down slowly. I
> expressed strongly to the attending physician that
> she wouldn't want to be kept alive in this state,
> or artificially, and moreover she had a standing
> order (signed by me) to that effect. The doctor
> said, "Then I will put her on a morphine drip and
> keep her on it." And in less than 10 hours she was
> gone. It was a mercy whatever finally made it
> happen.

Thank you for this confirmation and support, Anonymized.

I greatly appreciate you posting this.

My dear sister who had been suffering for years passed away this weekend. I wasn't able to be there, but I was told that the doctors gave her the morphine drip and took her off oxygen. She passed away about eight hours later. This was in California. I will miss her greatly, but am comforted that she is no longer in pain.

I am glad your sister is no longer suffering, fossilman.

Thank you for posting this.

My mother was diagnosed with dementia. My sister and I took turns for years caring for her for years. I too would prefer to die with dignity if I am ever in that situation. I have always said I never want my children to go through what I did. Now more than ever since my daughter passed away. I do not want my remaining child to have the burden on her own.

I was surprised recently to learn that Dr. Kevorkian who had assisted with the suicide of quite a few of his patients, didn't commit suicide himself when he died a slow death from cancer.

Out of all the people I would've thought would have wanted to, he did not. He allowed himself to die a natural death due to the cancer, not hurried up by suicide thereby avoiding the end of life from the effects of cancer snuffing out his life.

I don't know why that surprised me so much, but it did.

IIRC, his decline was rapid and he didn't have that option.

From his bio on wikipedia, he had been terminally ill for a number of years, even prior to the liver cancer &/or a thrombosis that claimed his life. He was suffering from both at the end.

"Reportedly terminally ill with Hepatitis C, which he contracted while doing research on blood transfusions in the 1960s, Kevorkian was expected to die within a year in May 2006.[38][39] After applying for a pardon, parole, or commutation by the parole board and Governor Jennifer Granholm, he was paroled for good behavior on June 1, 2007. He had spent eight years and two and a half months in prison.[40][41]

Kevorkian was on parole for two years, under the conditions that he would not help anyone else die, or provide care for anyone older than 62 or disabled.[42] Kevorkian said he would abstain from assisting any more terminal patients with death, and his role in the matter would strictly be to persuade states to change their laws on assisted suicide. He was also forbidden by the rules of his parole from commenting about assisted suicide.[43][44]....

Kevorkian had struggled with kidney problems for years.[56] He was diagnosed with liver cancer, which "may have been caused by hepatitis C," according to his longtime friend Neal Nicol.[39] Kevorkian was hospitalized on May 18, 2011, with kidney problems and pneumonia.[5] Kevorkian's condition grew rapidly worse and he died from a thrombosis on June 3, 2011, eight days after his 83rd birthday, at William Beaumont Hospital in Royal Oak, Michigan.[5][6] According to his attorney, Mayer Morganroth, there were no artificial attempts to keep him alive and his death was painless.[39] Kevorkian was buried in White Chapel Memorial Park Cemetery in Troy, Michigan.[57]"

Kevorkian could have committed suicide had he wanted to. He did not by choice, according to a documentary I watched on PBS.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 08:40PM by Amyjo.

Hep. C is not necessarily terminal.
Cancer is not necessarily terminal.
Renal disease is not necessarily terminal.

My huge issue with the guy is that he was a proponent of physician assisted suicide for *anyone* who wanted to die. Not ethical IMO.

As for Kevorkian himself:

"Mr. Fieger said that Dr. Kevorkian, weakened as he lay in the hospital, could not take advantage of the option that he had offered others and that he had wished for himself. 'This is something I would want,' Dr. Kevorkian once said.

“ 'If he had enough strength to do something about it, he would have,' Mr. Fieger said at a news conference Friday in Southfield, Mich. 'Had he been able to go home, Jack Kevorkian probably would not have allowed himself to go back to the hospital.' ”


https://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/04/us/04kevorkian.html


"Kevorkian was hospitalized on May 18, 2011, with kidney problems and pneumonia. Kevorkian's condition grew rapidly worse and he died from a thrombosis on June 3, 2011... ."

Your source which relied on the source above, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian#cite_note-Schneider-5

So, let's see. that's less than a month.

"According to his attorney, Mayer Morganroth, there were no artificial attempts to keep him alive and his death was painless."

Your source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian#cite_note-DFP-39

Which relies on this source: https://web.archive.org/web/20110605030057/http://www.freep.com/article/20110603/NEWS01/110603016/Assisted-suicide-advocate-Jack-Kevorkian-diesAGE


"Kevorkian did not have symptoms for years from hepatitis C, Nicol said, but the virus can cause liver cancer and ultimately fatal complications, particularly in elderly people."

<snip>

"Kevorkian resisted being hospitalized, but friends insisted on taking him to Beaumont Hospital after he fell in his Royal Oak apartment, Nicol said."



I don't particularly like the guy (experimenting on prisoners and disabled newborns isn't my thing), BUT I think he brought an important issue to the table. My aunt is going into hospice this week. But for Jack, I don't think palliative care would be an option.

My issue with what you wrote is that it sounds hyperbolic and he sounds hypocritical. He was an unapologetic nut, but I'm not sure he was a hypocrite.

Beth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> My huge issue with the guy is that he was a
> proponent of physician assisted suicide for
> *anyone* who wanted to die. Not ethical IMO.

I'm not sure this is correct. From the same Wikipedia article,
speaking of an interview he gave the year before he died:

"However, he [Kevorkian] also said in that same interview that he
declined four out of every five assisted suicide requests, on the
grounds that the patient needed more treatment or medical records
had to be checked."

My guess is that I was thinking about a critic of assisted suicide. I remember reading that at times he had only met the patient once and that it was later that he relied more on mental health exams rather than the patent's wishes. But I can't find anything to support it.

Had Kevorkian wanted to take his own life, he could have.

He didn't. That speaks for itself. He suffered from two terminal illnesses, not one. One he had for years. The other was shorter, and a death sentence in itself.

Yet he died from a thrombosis right after his 83rd birthday. For whatever reason he valued his life enough not to take it until his last breath by natural causes.

You said his "decline was rapid." Not so. It took years of long suffering before his demise. He did not give up or take the easy way out. You'd need to ask him why. I don't really care. The fact he didn't speaks for itself and is noteworthy.

I was a caregiver for my grandfather when he got dementia, and after watching and caring for him for over 2 years I executed a DNR at age 32.

I have been suicidal(the unhealthy kind) for most of my life as well.

Even though I am no longer planning ways to kill myself, I have a very strong desire not to live past the point I am useful. It is senseless. End of life decisions should be made by the person at the end of their life. And death with dignity should be celebrated, not punished.

An ex-boyfriend of mine father is credited with 'inventing' the Living Will. Luis Kutner was his name. Luis lived to be 84 himself, and continued working as a lawyer right up to the end. The Living Will began with his brainstorm of an idea back in the mid-1960's.

His son grew up in the shadow of having a famous trial lawyer for a father. He barely knew him as a child. He grew to respect him as a man.

"Luis Kutner, was a US human rights activist and lawyer who co-founded Amnesty International with Peter Benenson in 1961, and created the concept of a living will. He was also notable for his advocacy of "world habeas corpus", the development of an international writ of habeas corpus to protect individual human rights." Wikipedia

Nor do I find it in the least bit hypocritical that Dr. Kevorkian chose to die a natural death. That he made that choice knowingly and willingly was his inalienable right to do so. He did what was right for him.

Hell, I got old and I didn’t even notice when it happened.
I don’t expect that I will have the sense to know when it would be the right time to take my own life to avoid a prolonged and painful descent to the end.

Watch this movie - Griefwalker - https://www.nfb.ca/film/griefwalker/ and tell us what you think.
Has anyone else seen this? It is a thought provoking look at the way we die, and live.

M@t

Sorry to hear about your brother. I have a friend who's son just passed away after a painful degeneration from cancer.

It's awful to watch someone go through it and none of us want to go through it ourselves.

I don't really see dying as the end of life. Rather, a transition, or crossing over into a new beginning or perhaps a former place we knew once and have forgotten while here in this life.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't really see dying as the end of life.
> Rather, a transition, or crossing over into a new
> beginning or perhaps a former place we knew once
> and have forgotten while here in this life.


If that is how it works...

If it’s a ‘new beginning’ - will the new place be finite like this one? If so, what’s next after that?

If it’s a ‘former place’ - is the time on earth an intermission from that place? If so, why?

My sense is that ‘heaven’ is a construct for people who are for whatever reason unable to reconcile a finite life span with a beginning and an end.

In a similar thought...if humans are privy to the unending existence of some fashion, does every living thing on this earth have the same privilege?

When I was so terribly ill during the summer with c. diff., I remember feeling so rotten at one point that I wondered if I was really dying. I remember thinking very clearly, "I hope that I just fade out quickly. I don't want DH to be stuck with a horrible hospital bill, without my income to help pay for it."

Nobody gets out of here alive. We all know that. I just don't want it to be dragged-out and horrible.

If the patient wants to continue with treatment but gives in to extreme pressure to die, who takes responsibility?

When I was in the hospital, a "resource nurse" came in with a clip board full of forms. She asked how often I considered ending it all. I said never.

She acted miffed. "But why not? You're getting along in years and you're ill. Don't you consider dying with dignity?"

"No, I'll just keep living with dignity."

"Don't you feel like a burden to your family and to society?"

"No, certainly not."

"Then who exactly would care if you died?"

I had to give specifics on each person who would miss me.

I think this kind of treatment is a travesty. "Dying with dignity" sounds very nice, except when it it's at the behest of others and not the person who is ill or getting along in years.

I don't think it's right to expect patients to justify staying alive. If they want to live, that choice should be respected as much as the opposite.

Many on this board have disagreed with me. I have lost respect for them. I can only hope that if they're in the hospital as I was that they'll have the will as I did, to tell nurses to leave them alone if they're pushing for death inappropriately.

I consider it murder to force anyone to so-called die with dignity when it's totally someone else's idea of when that would be.

As for me, it's been years of happy healthy living since that woman confronted me and was so disappointed that I wouldn't go along with her opinion of me.

We can't assume that mistakes will never happen and we need to decide about how avoid them and what to do when they do occur.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2018 01:49PM by Cheryl.

In California, hospitals are required to ask about suicidal thoughts. This is to identify patients who are suicidal so that the suicidal thoughts can be addressed and a suicide (particularly an in hospital suicide) can be prevented.

Hospitals in California are also supposed to ask patients about their desires for end of life care. This is not in order to encourage or brow beat patients into a particular choice. It is to identify those that don’t want extraordinary interventions and respect their choices.

Euthanasia became legal in California in June 2016.

If this conversation took place prior to June 2016, this resource nurse was discussing an illegal practice with you. In any case, regardless of whether euthanasia is legal or not, the conversation that you described is never appropriate. Hospital staff should be respectful of the values and decisions of the patient and not trying to impose their values or views on the patient.

If you did not formally complain about this strange interaction at the time, I would still encourage you to contact the hospital about the interaction now. What you described is not normal and not an acceptable way to discuss these issues with a patient.

I mention California because Cheryl has said in past posts that she lives in California.

So when this happens and patients die as a result, who is responsible? Should they be charged with malpractice or murder?
Until these issues are addressed, this practice is questionable.

I don’t understand your post. I’m not sure who would die by what practice.

If your objection is to suicidal screening, that is a state law. Suicidal screening has not been found to increase suicides. Suicidal screening has recently been expanded to children above a certain age. I think that the age is 12. To end the practice, you would need to convince the legislature and governor of the need to make the change.

I don't see a need to rewrite it for you.

I no longer care.

NMJ,

This topic is a trigger for Cheryl. There have been other threads on the topic, and she always personalizes the discussion. That is where the disagreement arises: you are discussing a general principle and she a very specific one.

The question is whether there should be criminal sanctions if a relative or a doctor persuades a patient to agree under duress to a termination of life support. The answer is of course, yes. But that goes without saying.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2018 04:53PM by Lot's Wife.

That means you must reciprocate and not read or make up lies about what I say.

Please, everyone, read the post below where this person let's this issue trigger her personalizing of the thread.

Don't want to hear about my experience? Fine.

Others might not want to hear about yours.

There are *several* sides to this issue and your very personal example is only one of them.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That means you must reciprocate and not read or
> make up lies about what I say.

I never said that I don't want you to read my posts. You are free to do whatever you want: I sincerely don't care.



--------------
> Please, everyone, read the post below where this
> person let's this issue trigger her personalizing
> of the thread.

I'm not triggered at all. My experience is one anecdote, not generally applicable. I have no problem if others disagree.



--------------
> Don't want to hear about my experience? Fine.

I don't mind hearing about your experience. It is as valuable as mine, no more and no less. But none of what I write or feel prevents me from understanding, or tolerating, what other posters say.



------------
> Others might not want to hear about yours.

Indeed. Others are free to ignore my post or to read it, as they want. Again, that includes you.



------------

> There are *several* sides to this issue and your
> very personal example is only one of them.

Yes, there are "several sides to this issue." If you were to reread my post above more closely, you might realize that I validated your opinion. There is, in short, no contradiction between your anecdote and mine.

Here again it is curious why you so passionately reject the views of people who disagree--or whom you perceive as disagreeing--with you. An objective conversation should not be so unsettling.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2018 06:30PM by Lot's Wife.

"An objective conversation should not be so unsettling."

It is so hard these days...

Yup. Difficult days for sure.

It's important to make sure you have an End of Life Directive for your medical care.
Many have a DNR or Do Not Resuscitate. You are allowed to die without heroic efforts to keep you alive. It also gives the family permission to cease life-support if there is no chance you will get well.

You can also have a directive that allows for all possible treatments,etc.

My husband had that directive. When he was very ill, we had Home Hospice. I highly recommend it. I did most of his car, he was not in a lot of pain, and he passed quietly about a month later at home.

We are often asked to have an End of Life Directive on file at the local hospital. I just got my new copies, so I'll take care of that soon.

I'm a believer in taking care of your own life, and having an advocate if all possible.
I don't consider it a matter of someone "playing God," either.

I live in CA.

My way of handling this is I have a living will. It states absolutely no life support or machines to maintain life. It seemed to be the best way for me to avoid suffering.

wondering Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My way of handling this is I have a living will.
> It states absolutely no life support or machines
> to maintain life. It seemed to be the best way
> for me to avoid suffering.


Yes. My End of Life Directive is part of my Living Will and Trust. That way nearly everything is spelled out and probate is avoided.

I have a relative who went through the whole process. He was profoundly ill a decade or so ago and spent a long time in the hospital, including weeks on life support. After his recovery, he wrote and signed a living will saying he wanted no life support at the end of his life and describing one particular technology that he thought was "torture." Never again did he want to experience that particular medical treat again.

Over the intervening years his general health deteriorated, punctuated by a series of "events." After the last event, the doctors said that my relative had not been fatally harmed and that we should consider the intervention that he had prospectively rejected since it would only be for a few days. We agreed to do it, uncomfortable knowing that we were violating his will but not willing to let him go.

After several days the doctors informed us that the "event" had done a lot more damage than they had initially thought. The question was then whether we should use the offensive technology over the medium or long term, knowing that the best possible outcome would still be bad. We thought about it and opted to withdraw the support. It was a difficult decision, but we were at last acceding to his request, made explicitly and forcefully and through the full legal process. We would not "torture" him further.

I hadn't known that living relatives could overrule the living will, which it transpired was allowed in that state. I think we made the right decision; a few days of pain seemed (to us at least) reasonable while recovery was possible. But it was also uncomfortable putting him through something that he had experienced and hated. In the next phase, conversely, while we were deeply saddened to lose someone who made life easier for many in our family, there was at least some solace in doing what he had told us so many times he wanted.

Society and families and healthcare professionals should not torture people. If in full capacity and without duress, a person chooses how and when to pass away, those wishes should be respected. The Christian notion that it is a sin to end one's own life under those circumstances is absurd; it belittles the individual to deprive him of control over his own fate.

Why isn’t your brother on morphine? He shouldn’t be in pain at all.

Around the middle of August, Mom had advised me that she had put the names of my three oldest sisters on her houses title to avoid it being placed in probate upon her passing. She was 84 years old but still living in her home. She was also still working several hours a day, four days each week at the Public Library shelving books and checking out books to the patrons. She was efficient and got along wonderfully well with the Library staff as well as making everyone who entered feel welcome. She was dearingly referred to as "Grandma" by the youth as well as the adults in the town. Everyone loved her.

On Sunday or Monday beginning the week prior to her passing, DS, who was just one year older than me, told me that she had found out that our three older sisters had determined that mom was going to go to the Rest home and they would sell the home as they were each financially in need and mom would receive wonderful care and still be able to go to work at the Library.

They did not share their views with mom as they knew she would be very upset and feel betrayed and refuse to go. They contacted the doctor and made an appointment for mom at his office on Friday at 10:00 a.m. where he would fill out the forms stating mom was no longer capable of living in her house, on her own.

After DS told me about their plans, I went to mom's house and asked her if she was aware of this plan. Of course she was not, and became very agitated. She was aware of the upcoming doctor appointment but thought it was just for a regular check up for her physical health. We discussed what she might be able to do to forestall this and keep it from happening. I asked her if she would like to speak with a lawyer and see what her options were. She said she would and asked me to see if I could get her an appointment with one. On Monday morning, I called for an appointment to see a lawyer. and made the appointment for Wednesday in the morning. I told mom I would take her to the appointment.

I was pretty upset with my three older sisters. I spoke with both my DS who had first reported the plan to me and with then spoke with my older brother. They too felt what the three sisters were trying to pull was wrong. So it was three kids for letting mom stay in her own home and three kids who were wanting in the rest home.

Wednesday I took mom to see the attorney. He grilled her for over an hour. He told mom it may cost considerable but that in the end he said to her that he was confident that if this went to court, she would prevail (I realize that all attorneys probably say that to potential clients). As he was ending his conversation with mom (with me present) he told her to prepare for a battle between us kids and said family relations would most likely never amiable between us again.

I took mom home and she was somber and pensive. I tried to be positive but she was clearly quite shattered. ( I was super angry at the three girls at this point.) After dropping her off at her house on Wednesday. Mom called her sisters in Oregon. (I found this out from them after her passing) I don't know what she told them but they realized it was a goodbye call and she wanted them to know that she loved them. (I doubt they were totally aware on what she was saying until after her passing)

Thursday Mom drove herself to the bank in Cedar and made sure her financial affairs were in order. (Again, I learned of this after her passing as the clerk who helped her spoke of the peculiarity of this). Also on Thursday I contacted Dr. Marshall's office and asked if Mom's appointment could be shifted to an hour earlier (From 10:00 to 9:00) as the three girls, were planning on being at the 10:00 appointment to push their agenda thru. Mom knew about the change in time for the appointment and was in agreement with it being done this way to avoid having the confrontation in the doctors office. I was successful in getting the appointment changed to an hour earlier.

We got to the 9:00 appointment and I went in the the doctor's office room with Mom and waited for doctor. When he came in I told him Mom was aware of the agenda of the girls and that she we were totally against her going into the old folks home. I then spoke with the doctor and explained that we had already been to an attorney and that if he did what my sisters wanted him to do, I would take legal action against him. He immediately started to back peddle and assured us that he would not be signing any papers which would declare Mom incompetent or unable to continue to care for herself in her own home.

Mom and I were just driving out of the parking lot at the doctors office when we passed the three girls entering the lot for the 10:00 appointment. The ride back to Mom's from the doctor's appointment was again somber. She told me how proud she was and how much she loved all of us and ended saying she could not stand having us fighting. We said our goodbyes and I drove home.

Saturday morning the sister who had alerted me to the plans of the other three sisters, called from Mom's house. Mom had called her and told her wasn't feeling well and could she come up to house. When got there, the screen doors were locked and couldn't get in. Finally Mom was able to get to the door and open it for her. DS called an ambulance and then alerted the rest of us. When the ambulance came, DS rode in the back of it with mom. I happened to get behind the ambulance she was in as it was headed to the hospital and could see mom talking to and laughing with DS. All of us kids got to the hospital at about the same time and after the staff got Mom stabilized, She told us she was fine now and for us all to go home. (Note: Mom had a DNR already signed and in place. We all knew that.)

Upon my arriving home the phone was ringing as I entered the door. The call was from the hospital telling me Mom had passed away. I immediately returned and entering Mom's room and found a doctor beating on Mom's chest, trying to resuscitate her. I told him to stop as Mom had been implicit in her DNR instructions to all of us and the doctors knew of them too.

I never confronted my three older sisters about their intents nor actions which I am convinced contributed to the passing of Mom. She died of broken heart. Yes, she was 84 and had lived a good long life but I feel she could have had more time had she not been betrayed. She wanted out of this life rather have the fight which she could see brewing between us kids.

I am glad I did not engage with any of them. Mom would have felt doubly betrayed.

About freedom, of choice, of control. Of life, through death.
I want to LIVE every moment, until I'm not. Life is a pain!

And a joy, and thrill, a ride, a rollercoaster, a haunted house, a carnival, a feast!...

Many interesting posts here.

I am the person who started this thread. My BIL is still hanging on. But the end is near. He hasn't eaten anything for five days. Hospice brought a hospital bed to his house and he got to that bed five days ago. He hasn't eaten anything for five days now so if nothing else kills him he will die from starvation. He gets an injection of morphine every two or three hours and that is keeping the pain down. These last few days are terrible -- no quality of life remaining. That is not what I want for myself when my time ends.

I am an insulin-dependent diabetic. If I inject too much insulin, then that will immediately kill me. I could guarantee that outcome by injecting a massive dose of insulin. If I were to do that I would pass away in about 30 minutes.

Another approach would be to choose to die from hypothermia (commonly called freezing to death). This is said to be a pleasant and painless way to go. A person only needs to go outside in sub-freezing weather, and sit down in a comfortable chair. As the body temperature drops, death will happen when the body temperature reaches about 91 degrees. It is a painless way to die and no outside assistance is needed.

I am now almost 77 years old and I appear to have a few years left. I just know that I don't want my final weeks to be like those of my BIL.

Thanks for the update.

Have you seen the film, Griefwalker [I linked earlier]?
Curious as to who else has seen it. It is powerfully moving.

Thoughtful.

I am morbidly afraid of dying from hypothermia. As a Southern Californian by birth, I used to take being comfortably warm for granted. Since leaving home at age 27, to do a vagabond number around the country with my now-ex, I have lived in several places where it snows, including where I now live, in NM.

My DH is by nature, much more warm-blooded than I am. He is perfectly comfortable at about 10 to 15 degrees cooler than I am.

When I was in the hospital during the summer, I kept asking for blankets, and at one point, my feet got so chilled (I think this is due to tourniquets having been on for too long during knee surgeries when I was a teen) that I begged for a heating pad. They had this ridiculous thing that (they assured me) would have my feet toasty warm within 15 minutes. Four hours later, my feet were still chilled. I reached down and felt my feet with my hands - sure enough, it wasn't just me. My feet WERE still cold.

I finally fell asleep, despite cold feet (they usually keep me awake until they warm up, but I have more efficient heating systems available at home.) My feet were warm when I woke up the following morning.

I asked my DH to bring a REAL heating pad to the hospital for the following night, and he did, but the hospital would not let him leave it with me.

I have an electric mattress pad on my bed at home. I put it up to "stir-fry" before I climb in, allow it to warm whatever parts of me may be cold, then turn it down to low, and stay comfortably asleep.

I don't want my final conscious sensation to be "cold." That would be so nasty.

According to Bing, six states have legal assisted suicide laws. I've heard no news stories about older people being pressured to check out early. I'm sure there are a few cases of this happening, but it's pretty rare. Cheryl's questioner should have been reported and fired.

The thing that I don't think is rare is morphine hastening death in terminally ill patients--intentionally or not. From what I can tell, it happens frequently and it's usually not investigated.

Dorothy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The thing that I don't think is rare is morphine
> hastening death in terminally ill
> patients--intentionally or not. From what I can
> tell, it happens frequently and it's usually not
> investigated.

My knowledge and experience in this area extends back twenty-five years, so what I say here may not be up-to-date. ;)

When I was a primary caregiver, and in California, there was a legal changeover from a doctor's care to hospice care.

In both cases I was personally involved with (my aunt, and then my father) one of the first things that happened, after that legal changeover had occurred, was that a delivery person arrived at the door with a bag of medicines from the hospice, and among them was a bottle of morphine syrup. At the point where that changeover was made, the focus is on ending life peacefully and as painlessly as possible--rather than extending it. (Caregivers are specifically instructed to NOT dial 911 when the patient dies--you call the hospice instead. The whole object is to conclude life, rather than extend it.)

When I realized that my Mom was in the process of dying (a few hours after my aunt died), I took her to the emergency room at the local hospital, where we both were at that moment (a community in San Diego County), and turned her over to their care, because she had come from out of state, and did not have legal permission to die at "home." Once the hospital personnel got a look at her, she was taken "upstairs" immediately. When the doctor assigned to her talked to me, he knew about my aunt's death that day, and that I basically had not slept for three weeks at that point, and he told me to go "home" (to my aunt's house) and get some sleep, and that they would "take care" of my mother (and he made meaningful eye contact as he was saying this; he was "messaging" me).....and I knew they were going to ease my Mom's way because she was in a bad place physically. She died at 11:00 AM the next day (about eighteen hours after this conversation). I have no doubt that when she died, she was not in pain.

When someone is actively in the process of dying from natural causes, the laws (at least in California) are different than they would be for other people, in other situations, in other places.

After my Grandpa's horribly protracted death from leukemia (he had all three kinds), and my aunt's year-long struggle with pancreatic cancer, and what my Mom had gone through already with my Dad a few hours earlier, I REALLY did not want her to have her death process sustained--and emphatically, neither did she.

I consider that medical need/ end of life, not suicide