Hi all,
I need some advice.
I’ve been a member my whole life and still attend church every week although I currently have no calling and no longer pay tithing. Besides the bishop and stake presidency, most members probably think I am still all in. Recently I had an interview with a church leader wanting to extend a calling. I refused and explained why. I basically said that I lost faith in the church due to numerous unanswered questions regarding church history and doctrine. I didn’t go into much detail but gave Joseph Smith being married to 20-30 women some as young as 14 and some still married to other men as an example. To sum up the interview in a nutshell, essentially, he said that he doesn’t worry about the things he doesn’t know but focuses on the things he does know ie BOM, living prophet, first vision, JC, etc. (seems I heard something similar in a recent GC talk).
When asked about how I felt about the BOM, I said I don’t know, that I had concerns. He went on to say how for him the BOM was tangible proof that he can hold in his hands of the divinity of JS and how it would be impossible for a young man with limited education to write such a book in such a short period of time. I didn’t bother going further with that topic by talking about the many possibilities of how the BOM came to be. In the end he bore his testimony of how he has received too many witnesses to deny the truthfulness of the church (that line sounds very reminiscent of a GBH talk I heard some 10-15 years ago).
The interview lasted a good two hours with the leader suggesting I meet with a GA that will coming into town in the near future. My response was that the GA’s time is very limited and I’m sure other members would benefit from such a meeting. He insisted so I agreed, kind of my token that I’m acting in good faith.
So the advice I need is pretty basic. When I meet with the GA and I am assuming the SP will also be present, and assuming the interview lasts no more than an hour, maybe even just 30 minutes, what should I do or say? Obviously, time is limited and even if I had a couple hours, I don’t think it would change a thing, so what would be the best way to sum up my concerns with the church? I don’t want emotions to play a part. I want to be very calm, respectful, and factual. Should I bring up one or two issues or just make a very general statement?
I understand there are many opinions on this, in the end I will choose the one that fits my experience and personality. Thanks in advance!

This may not be the right thing for you to say, but if it were me, I would say: " I can not, in good conscience, have a calling in an organization that was founded on fraud, deceit, the occult, and dare I say...murder?" (MMM, Danites). I refuse to rely on someone who put a rock in a hat and claimed to receive revelation.

My advice:

Remind the SP that he doesn't know the things he claims to know. He believes them. That's not the same as knowing -- although it's claimed to be the same in mormondom.

Remind him that there are multiple versions of the "first vision," all of which differ from each other, and that there was no talk of a "first vision" at all (other than the supposed visit from Moroni, who was first said to be Nephi, telling him about the plates) until long after the church was founded. Which makes the now-accepted "first vision" story look like a post-hoc made-up story, not a founding story.

Remind him that arguments from personal incredulity ("...it would be impossible for a young man with limited education to write such a book...") are fallacies, not valid arguments. Ask him if he's ever read the first draft of the BoM, which looks very much like someone with a "limited education" wrote it, and looks nothing like the claimed words-appearing-on-a-magic-rock-and-not-written-down-until-perfect source of the book.

Remind him that his "witnesses" are nothing but his own feelings, that people from other religions with conflicting doctrines have the same "witnesses" about their beliefs, and that there's nothing to indicate those indicate "truth" in any way. And that even if they did, they're HIS "witnesses" -- not yours.

Finally, remind him that the "truth of the church" can't be established by evidence. It can be believed, without evidence, but not established by it. And that there are awfully good reasons NOT to believe it without evidence, no matter how happy it makes him or how firmly HE believes. Ask him if he'd buy a house, sight-unseen, with no evidence that it's what the seller claims it to be, only going on belief-without-evidence...odds are he wouldn't. So why should a lesser standard be used to believe in the church?

Lastly, don't let them browbeat you with their testimonies. Those only indicate that they believe in it, nothing else. They don't indicate that it's true (or not). Remind them that the fact of someone believing something has no bearing whatsoever on whether the thing that's believed is true, and point out some of the thousands of demonstrably false things people truly believe (flat earth, for example).

You don't actually have to go through all of this if you don't want to. You're almost certainly not going to convince them of anything, no matter how reasonable your points are. And they're going to do their best to browbeat you, shame you, and cry about the loss of your eternal soul when all you're doing is posing reasonable questions. You *can* simply let them know that you don't believe, and that's it. End of discussion. You don't owe them an explanation, the only reason they want to discuss it with you is to beat you into submission -- and you don't have to put yourself through that.

However it goes, good luck.

Don't bother with any further meetings.
Active Mormons in high positions will always defend the church and the book, no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary.

The Book of Mormon claims have been repudiated by DNA which clearly shows that the ancestors of the American Indians came from ASIA, specifically from the regions around Lake Baikal.

Your best bet is to keep doing what you have already started - stop paying and obeying.
Any further discussions with TBMs will lead nowhere.

Good luck.

I doubt that you'll be telling the GA anything that he hasn't already heard and disregarded. By the time they become GAs, most members on the leadership track have already committed themselves to the path of enduring to the end; the end being one of the apostles, or even the first presidency. Politely hearing your doubts is merely the price that he must pay on his way acquiring more cred within the hierarchy.

He may appeal to his personal authority and whatever camaraderie he can establish with you. "Heck, I'm a regular guy just like you, and I can tell you that I've had some doubts, too. But I've gotten past them and look where I am now, and where I hope to be, Joseph Smith willing." The undertone being, shut up and get with the program if you ever hope to be anything of worth in the church; and if you have no such hopes, shut up anyway.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2018 12:24PM by GregS.

I agree DON'T SHOW UP!!!

On their side they have, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," and "all will be explained in the hereafter," and "the important thing is "faith in God over the learnings and knowledge of man."

Those aren't worth a thinking man's conversation.

The G.A. will already know what your concerns are and he will have the above answers, perhaps with his own twist on the subject and a faith promoting anecdote to accompany. Repeating what he has already been hearing from others will advance nothing.

Joseph's wives and the recklessness of the BoM aside, any church of God should offer more than just strict obedience which produces stagnation, not growth.

The G.A. is likely to point out that the Mormon church gives families a wonderful way forward in a sinful world. Be ready to illustrate how that is not the case. Mormons are not healthier due to the WoW and in fact less so due to sugar consumption. Mormons take more pills than the average. Gay teen suicide rates are up in Utah. And the beat goes on . . .

So. How does Mormonism in 2018 give one a purposeful life? The world is a banquet and Mormons have limited their palates to 19th century thinking. If God is really choosing the best for his team, wouldn't he be looking at anyone striking out in all the different fields of humanity and accomplishing the worthwhile rather than worship from a group imitating Pavlov's Dogs for the Mormon prophet?

I would tell the G.A. that you expect more from a God.

"he doesn’t worry about the things he doesn’t know but focuses on the things he does know"

Right. So do you, it's just that you know things he doesn't. Like multiple 1st visions, polyandry, etc. And the things you know demonstrate conclusively that the church is not what it claims to be.

"impossible for a young man with limited education to write such a book in such a short period of time"

The problem with this is that the BOM as currently issued has gone through multiple editions and thousands of corrections, and is now a relatively polished (though still boring) work. But as originally written ("translated"), it read like hillbilly English, with phrases like "a-going" and "a-journeying." A good smackdown of BOM grammar can be found here:

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/3913intro.htm

Compare with the actual 1830 BOM here:

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/book-of-mormon-1830/1

Actually, if I were you, I just wouldn't go. It will serve no real purpose and do nothing more than waste your time. In your mind, meeting with the GA is "showing good faith"; in theirs, it's submitting to their authority.

synonymous Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The problem with this is that the BOM as currently
> issued has gone through multiple editions and
> thousands of corrections, and is now a relatively
> polished (though still boring) work. But as
> originally written ("translated"), it read like
> hillbilly English, with phrases like "a-going" and
> "a-journeying." A good smackdown of BOM grammar
> can be found here:
>
> http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/3913intro.htm
>
> Compare with the actual 1830 BOM here:
>
> https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/bo
> ok-of-mormon-1830/1
>
> Actually, if I were you, I just wouldn't go. It
> will serve no real purpose and do nothing more
> than waste your time. In your mind, meeting with
> the GA is "showing good faith"; in theirs, it's
> submitting to their authority.


Very interesting!! Thanks

ETA: second link doesn't work



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2018 01:22PM by angela.

I just tried the link again (from my post) and it worked fine.

The link in your post doesn't work because when you hit the "Quote" button, it truncated the URL and made it link to nothing.

Try the full link from my post. Like I said, it's been working for me.

These posters are right. It does no good to debate with Mormons. A GA will not give you answers that are different from what your bishop gave you. You are probably right: what your church leader said to you is the same stuff from conference talks. It's stuff he has been taught to say. A GA will just repeat the same stuff you have heard before.

I agree that they are trying to intimidate you, through the "authority" of an important GA. Already, you feel that this important GA's time is too limited to bother with the likes of you. Keep in mind, that it is only self-appointed "authority" that Mormon men give to each other, based on the lies. Mormons have absolutely NO authority from God. They have no authority over YOU. It's a volunteer organization.

You probably already know that Mormonism is a hoax, but, even so, the Truth can be a difficult pill to swallow. You do what is best for YOU!

Many Mormon family members, and Mormon "leaders"and Mormon fake-friends and missionaries tried to make me change my mind. (They desperately needed an organist.) But, once I knew about the Mormon lies, I could not "un-ring the bell". It was too late.

Every so often, I still have some Mormon tell me to read the BOM again. My reply is, "I've already read it 7 times, and taken BYU classes, seminary classes, and Sunday school classes on the BOM."

<<<<<doesn’t worry about the things he doesn’t know but focuses on the things he does know>>>>>>

Great philosophy! As a member of a mob family I don't worry about how the money comes in. I know there are some questions about legality but I don't really know where the mob comes up with their funding. I do know that my bills get paid. All the family members attend church regularly, dress in suit, tie, white shirt, and make their monthly church donations. They pray and all say they are people of faith. I know they pay their taxes and have lots of lawyers to help run the firm. They support me and we all live in nice, big houses. I have a nice car. Why should I ask questions? Why worry about what I don't know?

Well, Brother Newbiguy, you can take the advice of your leader and not ask questions about the things you don't understand OR you can do what I would do in your shoes. I'd ask LOTS of questions.I'd ask for lots of transparency and documentation. How do you know their word means spit? I would ask where, exactly, does the tithing, fast offering, etc. donations go specifically. How do the GA's spend their time exactly? What is said in their meetings? How many boards do they sit on as paid directors? How much money does LDS,Inc give each leader per year and as a sign-on bonus? Why do sacred things have to be secret? Why does the temple ceremony require members to sell their souls (time, money, means, all they have been blessed with, and all they have now and will have in the future) to the Mormon corporation rather than to God? How can anyone possibly know (confirm) the number of church membership when LDS,Inc. only reveals the number people joining the church but refuses to reveal how many are resigning each year? What purpose does that serve other than to be deceptive? Why does LDS,Inc. believe they are worthy of a tax waiver simply for being a church when they take more from members than they give back as a charity? Where is the transparency regarding charitable donations? How does the for profit side of the church interact financially with the not for profit side? Where is the documentation to confirm those interactions? How can I put my trust in an organization that claims to represent God and speaks for him yet keeps everything they do in His name a secret? How can I possibly make informed decisions as a church member when I know nothing of the inner workings of said institution? Why is faith in God not enough? Why must I also have complete faith in men who are admittedly flawed and imperfect without ANY evidence of what they say and do behind closed doors?

See where I'm going with this?

If you can't be rescued it is a waste of all you all's time. I know you want to be polite to someone you have a relationship with but this meeting isn't a friendly chat. IT is a negotiation for your continued activation.

newbieguy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> how it would be impossible for a young man with
> limited education to write such a book in such a
> short period of time.

I am so tired of this weak argument about Smith and it being impossible for someone with a limited education to produce such a book.

It's another smythe of Mormonism

You don't believe in Mormonism for many reasons. Don't go

Can you imagine anything the GA could say to make you believe again? Anything he could say to make you take that calling and pay 10% or your income?

Can you imagine anything you could say to the GA to make him face the facts and renounce the church? Anything?

Why waste each other's time?

My exit only rated a visit from the second counseler. It was a short exchange.

Him: why have you left?

Me: I can’t believe in a god who changes a people’s skin color to punish them.

Him: Sister Dorothy, you’ve been listening to the devil.

Me: well thanks for coming by.

Strangely, I treasure the exchange. His only defense of the blatant racism in the Book of Mormon was... the devil? I already didn’t believe in the devil. He might as well have accused me of hanging out with the tooth fairy.

Beware, they want you all in, or a all out. Their way or the highway. If you like the fence you’re sitting on, best stay quiet and invisible.

Sistern aren't as important as brethern.

Exactly. Even when excommunicated, they only get the Junior Varsity team.

You need a penis to merit a GAs time, which sounds a little homo-erotic, when you think about it. No wonder they are so paranoid about gay men, and have an "oh, yeah, them too" attitude about lesbians. Being fixated on men strikes a little close to home for them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2018 01:50PM by Brother Of Jerry.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Being fixated on men strikes a little
> close to home for them.

But not a little too close to homo for them ironically.

Study and come to your own conclusions. How others feel or think doesn't matter. It's your life, not theirs.

You've been trained to be polite to church authorities by giving them your time and your attention. But it isn't necessary for you to do that. In your shoes, I would decline the meeting. All they have is their beliefs and their testimony. They've got nothing more to give you. They are trying to "rescue" you -- trying to bring you back. Can you be brought back? If not, place a value on your time by saying, "No, thank you." You don't have to keep trying to please these people or accommodate these people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2018 05:26PM by summer.

Since your BP rudely wouldn't take your No for an answer, then don't show up. Simple as that. I hate when people won't accept No for an answer. They are bullies.

You have much, much better things to do with your life for Pete's sake.

Why not just resign and be done with it?

I also find it hard to believe that your bishop would set up a meeting between you and a GA. Mormon big wig comes to town and we have him engage in uncomfortable chats with disaffected members. That doesn’t sound like typical Mormon behavior.

First off thanks for your replies. The leader interviewing me was from the stake presidency and apparently when a GA comes into town he sets some time aside to meet with members at the stake presidents discretion, quite often these may be members who are ill or otherwise in need of support.
In retrospect perhaps I should have just declined the meeting, but at this point I will go as it will be a good opportunity for me to make my position clear. I admire that ex bishop from Texas who recently stood up to voice his concerns about bishop youth interviews and was subsequently exed. Likewise, I think it is my duty too to take a stand.
Unfortunately my life is too intertwined with the church at this point to simply walk away as my wife is still active although not your typical TBM, and most of our friends are LDS. I don't want a total breakaway as there are many good people in our ward and I don't mind associating with some of them. In addition I get a feeling of empowerment when I go to church knowing that I don't have to accept any callings or assignments to clean the temple or make visits. I will continue to be honest and candid in my thinking and comments and who knows maybe snatch a few souls away from the chains of cojcolds. They may be jealous of my freedom from all the rules and want to join me.
If anyone is interested I will post how it went although we can pretty well predict the outcome. That's the thing about this church, everything is so damn scripted, no room for thought or questioning or honest discussion. That more than anything is what drives me away.

Yes. Please post a follow-up.

Thanks,

HH =)

You seem to want it both ways. You want to make a statement about your disbelief and even hang around to be able to influence some other members that the Church is false. You also want to keep your Mormon friends and family happy by going along with things. Well, once you start trying to influence other members that the Church has problems and let it be known that you intend to continue to do so, you become too visible for them to let you. The Bishop you referred to that you respected found that out. The meeting is just a pretext to get you on record so if you continue to attempt to influence members, or even your family, they will have evidence to discipline you. You’ve got to decide if your church and family relationships are strong enough and important enough for you to start down this path.

Remember, if you call out the bully in the playground, you’d better have the game to back it up or you’ll get your ass kicked.

>>apparently when a GA comes into town he sets some time aside to meet with members at the stake presidents discretion, quite often these may be members who are ill or otherwise in need of support.

Yes, please do follow up. Nowadays when a bigwig comes to town, they often ask to have meetings set up with members who are visibly wavering from the true and narrow. So the fact that you have expressed doubts and have declined a calling has put you on the leadership's radar. Just be aware that this is a "rescue" mission.

When I was urged to meet with a Stake President about an issue I was involved with, but coming to a decision at odds with the common answer of the Church, I went. Afterwards others told me they had a similar experience. My adherence to the gospel was almost immediately brought into question. "Have you been living the gospel?" Who in their right mind can honestly say, "Yes, I've been doing everything I'm supposed to have been doing, absolutely everything." Picking further, raising the question of guilt for imperfection, and then, "If you pray to Heavenly Father, he can help you." I will never go through that again, but if I did, I would not be guilt-tripped into agreeing with anybody about anything.

So, know what you believe. Stick with the issues - it's not about your level of perfection or whether you've ever made a mistake. It is about the Church and Joseph Smith and the teachings and leadership methods. Stick with those and you'll be fine. Don't let them control the conversation! You must be in charge of your own life. You'll have to live with the consequences. So make good decisions, lead the discussion (or inquisition) the way you want to, and your decisions will be good.

My guess is the meeting would be no more than an hour unless you really want to get into it with the GA.

I disagree with many posters here on a number of things. I don't think the GA "knows all the issues." Many are just as clueless as bishops. They are just upper level middle managers making sure the wards and branches are running as they should. They are not historians or theologians. Most likely he only knows the issues at a superficial level and might spew a weak apologetic response to them.

Others will say don't go. I think it's really up to you and how comfortable you are doing it. I really don't think it will hurt to go. If anything, it will show you are sincere and trying to "get answers" to things. I think "jumping through these hoops" can show TBM's that you are really doing your best to make it work.

I also think you CAN plant some seeds with TBM's EVEN Stake Presidents and GA's. They might research on their own after your meeting and/or understand better that there really are good members sincerely struggling with real historical problems in the church.

I suggest narrowing down to 3 or 4 issues or historical facts that you know inside and out. Know what the apologist response will be and know how you would respond to that. That way you won't be caught off guard if they have some rebuttal to what you bring up.

Remember that your testimony is yours and yours only. They can bear their testimonies all they want and tell you they have "personal experiences" that they "know" the church is true but you can't rely on other people's testimonies. Tell them that. Until you have received convincing testimony yourself, there's no good reason you should just go along with it because other people say so.

And don't let them tell you that you just need to pray more or read the scriptures more or whatever. You've been doing these things YOUR WHOLE DAMN LIFE. Tell them that.

And also, do NOT confess to any kinds of sin, especially sexual sins. They will always hold that against you.

Absolutely agree with not confessing sins of any kind otherwise THAT will always be the reason why you left. They can't understand that a person commits a few "sins" because he or she no longer considers them to be sins.

You’ve found out that you’ve been living in an artificially constructed reality, like “The Truman Show”. You can’t go back to pretending it’s real and have it be the same. Everyone inside the bubble has blinders on that prevent them from relating to your situation. You could stay to keep the peace. For me, keeping the peace was the slow road to hell. Obedience is weaponized for use against you. It’s seems you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

I learned something from Jordan Peterson today. When you corrupt yourself for expediency, the effects run far deeper than you realize. It doesn’t really do anyone any good. If the blind lead the blind into a ditch, should you follow them into the ditch?

Wow when you mentioned Jordan Peterson, that was so cool because I literally discovered him for the first time on YouTube yesterday. His way of thinking resonates with me. And the clip of him on the Bill Maher show was classic.
You're right, too many of us just don't want to rock the boat, thus not living a life of integrity. My integrity does not permit me to continue on as I have in the past. If I do I'm living a lie.

How is meeting with the GA going to benefit you?

If you want to be talked back into the church and you think a high rank gives the standard arguments more gravitas and he’ll be able to convince you to come back, go to the meeting.

If you don’t believe and you don’t want to go back, you’re wasting your time. And his.

I personally will be shocked if you end up getting one on one time with a GA. The information you shared about your situation leads me to believe that you want to continue to be a "visiting" person who can attend with his wife and have already shared some of your doubts with your wife, a church leader along with the bishop and stake president.

Unless you are really interested in making more of a stir, I myself would leave it at that. Depending on the GA, I think you could end up unleashing something that you do not seem to really want. I say this because I think it is a crap shoot as to which road the MormonCult will take. And, I personally would not bet on a GA being interested in leaving his plush position (money, prestige and power) because of information you might reveal. My view is that they do know but have chosen the life they are leading over Truth or have shoved their heads in their hats, refusing to even glance at most of the info.

Yes, maybe there is a chance in a trillion that you might lead the GA to the truth, but with the chances so slim for that happening, if I were in your place, I would not take the chance of upsetting the apple-cart.

My 2 cents worth! Best of luck to you and please do share if you meet with a GA.

Would be fun to have a meeting scheduled, not show, and tell them you forgot.

If you do meet with them, forget doctrine or history, but focus on free agency. Why can't people pick their level of involvement without being shamed or pressured? Wasn't it the devil's plan to force us to believe?

Perhaps mention the families blown up when one chooses to not participate. Is the church for families or not?

Mention it looks like a cult.

Just don't go.

That's how you beat them at their own game. Don't show up.

Go fishing. Fly a drone. Hit the shopping mall.

Save your money for other things, and your time. Think of all that wasted time, money, and your energy spent in a cult sucking you dry. Then divest.

Joseph Smith had 39 documented wives btw. Brigham had 55. Those were just the ones accounted for.

Besides all your unanswered questions, you will not find them from church leaders. They are there to mopologize and to mobilize.

It's up to you, but if you're serious about making your exit the best thing you can do is to not participate or go to any meetings one on one, or group classes.

Don't wait for the STHTF if you can bow out sooner. I went back after my parents deaths out of a sense of nostalgia, and it was perhaps one of the worst decisions I ever made. It had a huge negative impact on not only me, but worse, my children because of meddling and over controlling people from the ward that became an albatross to us and made our leaving again a final decision that was resolute. If we'd stayed away the first time we would have avoided those ugly people that undermine and divide families knowingly, willingly, and deceptively, while they preach 'families are forever.' My children are out thankfully, but it came at a high cost because of how hateful the ward leaders became and retaliated. It was worse than shunning. That I could have lived with because I rejected TSCC. I cut it off once the fact we were in a cult had finally sunk in. It was the retaliation that got downright ugly from the bishop and his wife.

If I needed more proof it was a cult, I didn't need to look any further than those two people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2018 10:40PM by Amyjo.

I would jump at a chance to meet with a GA. I can shread just about anyone's mormon testimony in seconds. It might take the a few minutes though, with a GA. I would have him walking out of that meeting wondering how he could have ever been so stupid, and wondering what he will do now with the rest of his life, now that he knows that his life's work is representing a fraud. Don't give away your power or buy-in to his testimony/lies. Point out the truth, shame him for telling those lies, and ask him to 'get real'. GAs are vulnerable humans like the rest of us. When they lie, we expose those lies and shame them for even trying to get away with it. Tell him that you KNOW that the church is a fraud, and ask him how he can sleep at night, knowing that his life's work is to pander for a cult. He may never admit his doubts to you. You may not be skilled enough to catch his very brief expression of doubt in the church on his face when you call him on the BS (but I would catch it). But none the less, your words will have power. You will influence his life to one degree or another. You just need to be brave enough to do it.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2018 07:04AM by azsteve.

Thanks for that pep talk azsteve! I think I needed to hear that if for no other reason than to give me courage to stand up to my newfound conviction or should I say lack of conviction. In the same way it took lots of courage to being a Mormon out in the world, it will take a similar courage to being a disbeliever and potential apostate in front of a GA and SP.

I have to say the board did not let me down, many diverse opinions all worth merit. Personally I feel I have to go through with this meeting and not coward away. I need to let them know how terribly disappointed I am with the way the church and its leadership let me down by hiding all these truths from us for so many years. I need to tell them that my Integrity no longer permits me to continue as I have in the past. I can't pray this away anymore.

On a positive note, my associations outside the church over the last few years have steadily improved. I had no idea there were so many great and wonderful people out there! And all this time I was feeling sorry for them as they wandered aimlessly in the world, their souls lost and in despair, when in fact I was the one who was lost!!

Another thing you can ask them is "what price in lies is acceptable to create and maintain this dystopian society of yours?". Even God himself does not have the authority to treat me with this kind of abuse. And if God didn't do it, then this church is out of favor with God. God may or may not have created me and he may have the power to destroy me. But even God is not capable of making me accept this abusive treatment against my will. Someone, either you or God himself has some serious explaining to do for the lies and abuse that this church brings to its members, more specifically in my case, to me. I can't be a part of this dysfunction anymore. You teach repentance and the church itself will not repent for its own lies and mis-deeds. As of this moment, I resign my membership in this church. Unless you want a big lawsuit on your hands, there won't be any excommunication nor disfellowshipping, just an acknowledgment in writing from the church that I have resigned my church membership and therefore, I am not a member of the church anymore, will do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2018 10:12PM by azsteve.

I find it useful to use their tactics against them.

Begin every statement with I have a testimony.


I have a testimony that JSjr could not have been a prophet of god because of 1,2,3, & 4.

I have a testimony that the BOM is not the word of God zbecause of 1, 2, 3, & 4.

They are programmed to listen when these words are spoken.

I think it’s unprofessional and discourteous to make and appointment with the man and just not show. Plus, it makes you look bad.

If you don’t want to go, for the love of god, call and cancel. A simple “something came up and I can’t make it” will do.

What's wrong with telling him the truth? "I don't think a meeting would be to the benefit of either one of us" or words to that effect seems both adequate and more honest to me.

Saying "something came up" makes it very likely they will try again, until it becomes painfully obvious, even to a delusional Mormon, that nothing has come up, you just don't want to meet with them. Avoid the dance and save everybody (most importantly you) some time.

But yes, call and cancel. Just not showing up is totally lacking in class and courage. It's not about what they deserve. It's about personal integrity.

You are so accustomed to complying that you asked the wrong question. You should have asked "Should I bother to meet with him?" No one has any control over you anymore. Tell them you're busy for the rest of your life. You owe them nothing. Why waste another moment of your precious time/life.

You are correct raisedbyjackmormons, but only for someone who has completely healed up from their mormon experience. There can be a great healing power when you face a high-level representative of the organization that brought you harm, and when the meeting is over, you walk away with your own empowerment and integrity in-tact after letting them know that they did you wrong and that you're not buying it anymore. If you do well enough, you might even see a crack in his testimony/lie that he can't hide and you both know that he is wrong, and that he knows that you know he is wrong, just by observing his own doubt in his facial expressions (micro-expressions are a wonderful thing after you get good at reading them. It gets very difficult for others to lie to you without your knowing it). Facing these guys sure beats hiding like a coward. After you've won a few battles like that, boredom may set in and then maybe there is no need to meet with them. At the time I resigned, it felt more like escaping from East Germany than tendering a resignation, although I did meet with my Bishop to resign and to tell him why. After a few decades of healing and learning to feel empowered again, it was too late to easily get an audience with a GA.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2018 10:21PM by azsteve.

I've talked with several church leaders, it does not get you anywhere, and if you are married it's likely it can fuel them taking interest in interfering with your marriage and kids. Tell them you will be unavailable.