bounded in leather ... For all the tithe paying members, this is a slap in the face when church leaders pay lip service to world leaders by presenting them elegant bound family histories just because of the notoriety and PR it brings them. What about the hard working, dues paying members? Where's their bound family history records from Church Co?

"Elder Holland also used his visit to the Houses of Parliament to present gift copies of the Book of Mormon to key officials and collections at the House of Commons, the primary chamber of the British Parliament."

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900043263/an-apostle-in-england-british-prime-minister-theresa-may-pauses-from-brexit-to-meet-with-elder-jeffrey-r-holland-receive-family-history-book-of-mormon.html

..."The sycophantic adoration of British Royalty knows no bounds."

Were copies handed to the royal family? I suspect they don't need any help with their genealogy.

Did they discuss the necessary payout the Mo church must make thus allowing their Door to Door salesmen to continue working in U.K?

Publicity stunt

Did his Jowls get in the way of the presentation?

Did they get their ancestral lines traced back to Adam?

A nice vacation jaunt for Holland and wife and entourage to London. No doubt they flew first class, had nice hotel accommodations, great meals, maybe caught a few shows--all on the tithe-payers' dime--but the press didn't mention any of that. The leather-bound fancy books and documents weren't a gift from the Mormon church or from Holland, but from the tithe-payers. Right, it was some PR guy's idea. Holland steals all the credit, and he gets the trip, and the salary (stocks and dividends). Mormon-owned ancestry-dot-com didn't donate their services for free, you can bet on that.

I agree.

I think this is part of the reason they have temples in Europe as well. LDS Inc is not growing there. There's no justification for building them, but oh well. It's just a nice place to visit for high ranking U.S. members of the organization.

Based on the news article of what he is doing there, I am guessing, based having known him a few decades ago, he is trying to evangelize by trying to show that Mormons are Christians and build on that.

Just an educated guess on my part

I've heard there's a very good show on at the Prince Of Wales Theatre in London...…
I wonder if they went to see it while they were there. Lol

For Holland & Co., a trip like that is a trip of a lifetime.

They're lapping it up on tithespayers dime. It pays to maintain zero transparency. Ask them no questions, they're accountable to no one.

Mormon leaders do the same for each US president elected to POTUS.

Each POTUS is presented with a complete family history similar to that presented to Theresa May.

It is great PR for the church.

I wonder how Theresa May felt about someone from another country sticking their nose into her business.

Cults always try to gain influence from political leaders! Hence the Mormon church fawning respect of the Nazis! Also it's not working as the Mormon church is in freefall in the UK!

Do the presented records indicate how many of the dead ancestors have been dead-dunked to be mormons?

Or do they "diplomatically" leave that part out?

The tabloids would have a good time with it. Of course by the time it is done they'd probably say, "Who cares?, what, Mormons??"

to get their very own "gift copy of the Book of Mormon"?!?!

I'm absolutely certain that Westminster was full of burning bosoms that day. The only thing that stopped Holland from baptizing the lot of them was the unavailability of a font nearby and a Thames River swimming ban.

Why wasn't Holland knighted for his troubles? Has that been secretly scheduled for an announcement next year? Will he be the first apostle to be addressed as "Sir Jeffrey"?

Enquiring minds want to know.

England:

2.6 million Muslims. 420 Sikh. 290,000 Jews.

Less than 200,000 Mormons.


Houston, we have a problem.

And only 30,000 of them are active!

IMO, if you are a true believer, as I presume J.H. is, then I see nothing wrong with this gift.

pollythinks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IMO, if you are a true believer, as I presume J.H.
> is, then I see nothing wrong with this gift.


Dollars to donuts, he is a TBM. His trip there is in earnest.

I think it depends on what you mean by TBM.

Being an apostle means knowing a lot of things are false that TBMs believe, like the notion that apostles have seen Jesus in order to become special witnesses, the Q15 meets with Jesus in the temple, etc. In addition, he knows about a lot of the BoM's problems, the flaws in the BoA, and many of JS's flaws.

So he doesn't believe the same way normal members do. It may be that he sincerely believes he and his colleagues hear larger "still small voices" than everyone else and are a force for good in the world, but he must define "true church" and "restoration" differently than most people do.

His ego and interests align with his present job, and that convergence probably contributes to his sense that he is chosen of God. It is rare that someone honestly considers things that are against his interests.

TBM=

He believes that there was a great apostasy.
He believes that Joseph Smith was a prophet, the first vision, etc
He believes that the BoM is essencially true
He believes that the LDS church = the "restored gospel" for the last dispensation.

He believes that in the Articles of Faith.

Etc etc.

(Based on the video clips of his conference addresses, it is my thought, having known him personally, briefly, back in the 80's, that he is experiencing a great deal of cog dis)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2018 06:35PM by angela.

Well, having Holland present her with gifts and "grace" her with his "apostle" presences hasn't helped her all that much with her political drama

LOL

Watching this trip and seeing the photos, I am surprised to see how pathetic he is and how little he has accomplished.

He waited in the PM's office for some time, then she greeted him and he gave her a present. She said "I have to go," and he followed her to the elevator and gave her another gift. Instead of getting any substantial time with her, Holland spent a bit more time with a lesser minister and a functionary. Then he went to Oxford and had a robust discussion with a crowd whose photos the publicists for some reason decided not to reveal to the DN's readers. In short, his trip was a series of photo ops.

This has me wondering whether the episodes in the Adventures of the Apostles that impressed me in my naive youth were equally pathetic. Did the church get more attention from powerful people back then or were all such events feckless efforts to which transparent lipstick was applied by the church's PR department?

Was it always this bad?

I think it was always that bad. We just were ignorant of how bad it was.

The exception has been largely US presidents (and candidates for the presidency). They've been willing to spend a bit of actual time with the pretend-prophets to court the Utah vote.

Makes sense.

As a kid I found the church and its publications boring and never really looked. Now that I am interested, and more experienced in life, I easily see embarrassing details.

It must be humiliating for Holland and his merry band of egotists to sit in some pol's antechamber waiting for a chance to act important and get some misleading photos.

It was 15 minutes he had with May. For her it was a respite from an otherwise hectic schedule.

If nothing else it was flattering to receive bound copies of her family tree. Holland was doing something GA's have established as protocol for meeting dignitaries by providing her with that. It was likely what got him an appointment to meet with her.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It was 15 minutes he had with May. For her it was
> a respite from an otherwise hectic schedule.

Amyjo, it happened during the critical last few days of the Brexit effort. Her career depended critically on what she accomplished lobbying backbenchers. Talking to a pompous man from an insignificant religion in a different country was a waste of time, which is why there are no photos of her sitting down with Holland. She was rushing out of the office.


> If nothing else it was flattering to receive bound
> copies of her family tree. Holland was doing
> something GA's have established as protocol for
> meeting dignitaries by providing her with that. It
> was likely what got him an appointment to meet
> with her.

Holland got the meeting because May had to keep all her junior MPs on side to succeed with Brexit, not because Holland was in any way worth her time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2018 02:27PM by Lot's Wife.

May was very gracious nonetheless in receiving her gift from Holland. That is undisputed.

And she did not have a bound copy of her family history before. Sure it was a photo op, but a flattering one and she was a flattered recipient.

Just because she's British doesn't mean she or her family have a record of their family tree. It takes an active interest for someone to want to do that.

You make it sound as though she was inconvenienced. That wasn't the case at all. It was a brief respite from her otherwise hectic schedule.

The non-LDS people in my family developed their passion for genealogy late in life. It wasn't something they were born wanting to do. It was a spark that took hold. Not everyone is so inclined, but I know of no one who'd object or refuse a gift like the one she was given.

I do wish TSCC would reward its most ardent researchers with a like gift for the thousands of hours they spent compiling those records. But they don't. They're volunteers.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> You make it sound as though she was
> inconvenienced. That wasn't the case at all. It
> was a brief respite from her otherwise hectic
> schedule.
>


Holland no doubts understands what it's like to have a hectic schedule in his own right. Not just as a GA, but going back to his BYU president days.

He no doubt appreciated her taking the time.
Mark my words, he gets it.

Considering the dying nature of Christianity in the UK, if not already dead to some degree, not sure how to measure how successful or unsuccessful this trip has been.

His on a panel with former archbishop of Canterbury, is part of a Anglican Christmas program etc.

Based on the past couple of conferences and Nelson wanting to get away from the "Mormon" moniker, gonna take a guess that part of this trip was to align the church with other Christian groups in order to become more accepted in the traditional community. Oxford, Pembroke, and their theological scholars.

I can't recall when GA's have interacted with the theologians of other faiths. I think Holland is trying to get his foot in the door.

Will be interesting to see, IMO, if it goes anywhere.

Don't you think she already knows who her ancestors were? She is British, after all, where pedigree is one of the major features of one's life. And Jeff Holland thinks she couldn't possibly know all that stuff without being told by a minor leader of a minor religious sect from a backwater state of a rapidly declining nation. Seriously- what does he use for brains?

If someone were to gift that to me it would be a great honor, even though my family history is logged somewhere. It isn't neatly bound together in two volumes for posterity, or more likely in May's case, a future slot in some British museum or library's archived records.

Sorry, Amyjo -- Holland won't be presenting you with a bound copy of your family history. You're not a leader of a country he's trying to suck up to, so no book for you.

And as I pointed out above, I'll bet real money he didn't truthfully point out that this "great honor" also involved mormons being dead-dunked and dead-endowed for all of her ancestors listed in the book. I'm sure it would take some of the shine off the gift to May if he'd been honest...

"Here's a wonderful bound copy of your family tree we made just for you! Oh, and by the way, all of your ancestors are now proxy mormons, we took care of that for you while were were compiling this lovely book! Isn't that great?"

And this is mormon-researched genealogy. I bet he just poached it off Family Search, so it probably has tons of mistakes.

If I were important enough (in a *worldly* sense) for the church to compile a bound copy for me, it would likely be riddled with errors. I know exactly where the paper trail ends with my lines, and I've seen the countless mormon errors, so I could confidently point out their mistakes and show them precisely why.

And yes, if there were any conflicts, theirs would be wrong 100% of the time. I'm very careful and thorough because it means something to me. All Holland did was slap something together for a photo op, betting that the PM would never have the time or expertise to check their work.

I dunno. It included photographs of census and wedding records, among other family records. "The family histories took seven months and 2,500 hours of research, compilation and publication, according to a news release."

Tithing money at work...

Or volunteers? There's lots of senior missionaries working in the Family History Center in SLC.

Maybe perhaps? That would be free labor. Of course, tithe dollars maintain the facilities, yada yada.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Of
> course, tithe dollars maintain the facilities,
> yada yada.

...and pay for the handsomely bound book, yada yada...

She rec'd TWO handsomely bound leather volumes of family history. In addition a leather bound BoM, with inscriptions from the General Presidency. How's that for VIP service?

That was the yada yada! :)

Note also that May is not British royalty per se. Her position is elected. Therefore, PM's can come from the left, the right, the working class (labor party,) or other class besides royalty.

Presented with THAT "family tree", I'd chop it down... and plant another one.

M@t

Well, you can't exactly chop "down" the family tree you were given. You can work it forward perhaps, but not retroactive. Although some people spend a lifetime trying to erase their past.

For me I embrace the past. Just wish the future weren't so doggone mysterious except knowing that someday I'll meet the same end as all those others on my ancestral tree have done ....

Then I'll be just a name and a number on a vital statistic record other than to those who may connect their dots to mine and celebrate my life. That's wishful thinking though; they won't really know me.

I like to celebrate the connection to my ancestors. I can feel their spirit/s even though we haven't actually met, just from what little bit I have learned about their lives. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2018 01:33PM by Amyjo.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I like to celebrate the connection to my
> ancestors. I can feel their spirit/s even though
> we haven't actually met, just from what little bit
> I have learned about their lives. :)

Me, too, Amyjo, me, too.

:)

Haha! Way to go Holland. Kiss the ass of politician who is screwing over the British on their Brexit vote. While you are at it go over to the EU and lick Junker's boots while you are at it.

How exactly is May "screwing over the British on their Brexit vote?" She's doing what the electorate demanded.

Serious question.

Same old lame excuse to get access to politicians ... "We have done some genealogy for you . Please accept this gift."
Yup. More influence buying.

..."Dear Prime Minister May, may I present you with a genealogical history of you, and your relationship to past British royalty? For public viewing, however, we have conveniently edited out any past incestuous or pedophilic references that currently reside in the public record."