As Christmas approaches, I see lots of my friends posting on social media about how they don't want other kids telling their kids that Santa isn't real.


My daughter is four this year, and we've never had Santa as part of our Christmas tradition. She knows who he is from television and movies, but I've never told her that he's real and presents don't magically show up under our tree from him. She hasn't asked me if he's real or not, and I plan on answering honestly when she asks. Just like Mickey Mouse isn't real.


I was in first grade when I found out Santa wasn't real, and I felt betrayed and hurt. I felt the exact same way when I found out the church wasn't true, many years later.


My daughter (thankfully!) hasn't had much exposure to Jesus, but my parents are TBM and my in-laws are devout Catholics, so I imagine that will happen at some point. When it does, I will tell her that Jesus isn't real, just like Santa and Mickey Mouse. Because she'll already know that Santa isn't real and that I never lied to her about it, I'm hopeful that she'll accept that Jesus isn't real just as easily, especially without the early brainwashing from the church.


I'm NOT going to tell my daughter that she can't tell other kids what she believes. She has to do it respectfully and accept that others have different beliefs. This will take a while for her to learn (I know lots of adults who can't do this yet) but I want her to know that it's okay to have open, respectful discussions with people who believe differently than you -- whether it's about Santa, or politics, or religion. You might gain a new perspective that way, and I believe that's important.


Anyone else on here tell their kids the truth about Santa and Jesus right from the beginning? I'm definitely the minority among my friends.

As a lapsed Catholic, I have gone with decorating for Winter Solstice.
My grandson is Buddhist, so no problem there. We have big family dinners and used to give gifts to the kids, but so many unpleasant things happened around these events that I told my son I would not participate any more.Only the very young great grandsons believe in Santa now.
I think honesty is good, and children can get along without the fairy tales quite well.

He is a right jolly old elf who impersonates kindness and generosity.

Cheryl -- I love that portrayal of Santa. Kindness and generosity. Not the judgemental guy who decides if you were naughty or nice. This time of year I always carry extra money with me so I can put it in the Salvation Army buckets. Most of the bell ringers around here dress like Santa. If my daughter grows up associating Santa with helping the poor, then I'm all for that =)

Seems to me *you're* the one helping the poor.
Personally, I'd rather see your daughter associate you (a real person) with kindness and goodness than some imaginary dude in a funny suit. But maybe that's just me...

I guess my views are having an undergraduate degree in literature. Shakespeare, Stan Lee, Steven Spielberg all created great imaginary people that teaching amazing values. Just because it isn't true doesn't mean you can't pick up on those values.

So yeah, I think it is just you.

I love Santa and dont think it is really lying to.let kids believe. It is more like pretending and having fun as long as you dont over do it by pushing the belief to excess. Of course everyone should celebrate Christmas or not celebrate it as they wish.Kids arent going to be damaged either way so long as they live in a loving family. As for celebrating Jesus, it depends if you believe or not. If you do, it doesnt mean you are stupid as a few posters seem to think. Religion can be toxic but it doesnt have to be. There are many different beliefs in Christianity. Ido think kids should be aware of the religious background of Christmas as it is basic to western culture.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2018 06:45PM by bona dea.

I'd counter that none of those "imaginary people" ever taught anyone anything.
The people who did the teaching were the authors who wrote the stories about them.

Yes, absolutely, you can learn a lot from those stories. About imaginary people and events. But the imaginary people and events were the methods the actual teachers used (the authors) -- they weren't the teachers.

I agree,

Christmas without Santa? What would be the point?

Yea, Where are all the presents Saint Nick?

What are those mountain goats pulling the slay on the hay?

Why do you sit on children's laps, dancing, being so serious and so untrustworthy and undependable, and stingy, scary, and clown-like, instead of asking-telling them what they were getting, and then TOOK those presents, instead of making them at the south poll, and sustainable, and by 'hand', at that? Santa is a BIG part of CHRISTmas. He's in the pictures!

Roger -- We focus on friends and family, celebrating the end of the year, enjoying the lights and the parties. It's more of a Christmas-season celebration than a Christmas Eve/Day celebration for us. Less focus on stuff, more focus on people.

People should celebrate the way they want. You can have Santa and focus on people too. It isnt mutually exclusive. I do agree that Christmas can be too commercial, but ,again, that is an individual choice.

No jesus, no santa for us.

We do give each other gifts -- we've always told our kids that the winter solstice is the time every year the northern hemisphere goes from the cold deep of winter to the "rebirth" of spring, and that's a good time to take some time to remind each other of our love, affection, and support for each other as our planet starts on another trip 'round the sun.

My 3 1/2 year-old knows "santa" is a fantasy. One that some people engage in for a bit of fun, others think he's actually real. But just like we don't try to convince them that a magical god-thing in the sky is watching them to see if they behave, we don't try to convince them that santa "sees you when you're sleeping," or knows if you've been "naughty or nice."

Our gifts are a sign of our love for each other. They're not earned by desired behavior, backed up by a fantasy they'll find out is a total lie a few years later.

My kids have plenty of imagination, and enjoy fantasies for what they are -- make believe, right from the get-go, and acknowledged as such.

Hie -- It sounds like you are raising your kid very much the way I am raising mine. Gifts are given out of love and selected with great thought, not as a reward for being "good." What is "good" anyway? I had a cup of coffee with my breakfast and sometimes I go shopping on Sundays so in my TBM mother's eyes I'm not doing the things I should do to be "good." I suppose I have sentenced myself to the telestial kingdom with all the other sinners.

Here's to hoping our kids never think that drinking coffee is a sin!

westernwillows Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's to hoping our kids never think that
> drinking coffee is a sin!

I'll drink to that :)
Happy solstice!

Forty years after leaving, I still feel uneasy every time I have a cup of coffee.
Yes, I deeply hope your children are not bogged down by the same baggage.

Santa isn't Jesus and Jesus isn't Santa: home life, parent-modeling, media-manipulation, natural childhood peer relationships, politics, and Christmas have nothing to do with telling your children the truth. You are SIMPLY saying you don't celebrate Christmas. Right? That's fine. Think about nature, the seasons, the music-food-love, whatever it be?

Truth should always be told, unless you are LDS (then it can't), bus LDSinc doesn't own Jesus, and YES, some of us here celebrate Christmas. Think everyone has a choice? Sometimes. But that's grouping, or, politics. Who cares about when someone gives - or gets - presents, or when - and how - someone decorates, or celebrates? I don't.

I'm free though, and I can't be bought. I'll always be free since I'll always be me. See? 3: I, myself, and ME. I don't care what you do, and you don't, me. Free! Not dumb.

After having been raised LDS, and then raising myself, on LSD, and then having DSL, I have NO Choice - or voice - in the matter but HELPING the youth, even if they be your own.

Praise the Lord~

M@t

Jesus is santa for grownups.

Exactly. I'm an atheist, but if my daughter chooses to believe in a higher power someday, I hope she thinks through it logically like I've taught her to think about Santa. I've told her Santa isn't real, but I'll also encourage her to think through it herself if she ever wonders. Same with Jesus. I'm sure my TBM parents and Catholic in-laws will start preaching Jesus to her someday, and I look forward to the day when she looks them in the eye and says "Jesus isn't real, and here's why" and lists of all the reasons why Jesus is a nice story and nothing more.

Kids are not mature. They are busy figuring out what is real and what is make believe. There brains are capable of working through these mysteries and they deserve the freedom of thought to figure some things out in their own good time.

Do they think they have an imaginary friend? Nothing wrong with that.

Do they think they're truck drivers when they play with their toy trucks in the sand box. If so, it proves they have good imaginations.

Do they enjoy thinking about Santa bringing them gifts? Nothing wrong with that.

When they're ready, they'll figure it all out. They don't need a dictatorial adult interpreting any of this for them. Better to be supportive of where they are. Babies are ready for peek-a-boo. Toddlers are ready to move to a big boy bed. Seven or eight year olds will be able to see that Santa is a delightful myth that used to be fun to think about. That's growing up. No adult needs to step in and short cut the process.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When they're ready, they'll figure it all out.
> They don't need a dictatorial adult interpreting
> any of this for them.

Right. Because they have....dancing!

http://www.ldsliving.com/LDS-Family-of-10-Creates-Christmas-Dance-Video-That-Goes-Viral/s/83883

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do they enjoy thinking about Santa bringing them
> gifts? Nothing wrong with that.

Sure, lie to them. Nothing wrong with that.

> When they're ready, they'll figure it all out.
> They don't need a dictatorial adult interpreting
> any of this for them.

I would suggest they also don't need dictatorial adults lying to them, either. Such is not necessary to have an enjoyable and fertile imagination.

Here's the truth. You know next to nothing about either subject.

You like to call me a liar. I'm ashamed that I ever sat with you over dinner I tried to be civil in spite of your arrogance. I have zero respect for you, your mindless accusations, or your self proclaimed expertise.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's the truth. You know next to nothing about
> either subject.

a) I never claimed to be an "expert" on either.
b) I know more than enough to have produced three outstanding, smart, well-adjusted, happy kids.
c) I do indeed know a great deal about the subjects, having taught college classes, tutored hundreds of kids in math and science, and having a professional educator for a wife. So your assertion is false. And I have my own opinions -- it's not necessary to be an "expert" to have opinions (and experience), and having opinions different from yours doesn't mean I know nothing.


> You like to call me a liar.

Telling kids an imaginary man in a suit brings them presents, when no such thing occurs, is lying. Adults don't "step in and shortcut" the santa lie, they have to actively tell it to their kids. Knowing it's a lie when they tell it. Kids don't come up with santa on their own.

I didn't call you a liar, I said telling kids santa brings presents is lying. 'Cause it is.

You may be fine with it. That's your business.
Whether you're fine with it or not, it's lying.
Call it what it is.

I don't lie to my kids. About anything. Period.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2018 06:25PM by ificouldhietokolob.

I absolutely agree with Hie on the lying aspect of "Santa" - kids simply "grow up" enough to figure out that adults lie - it ultimately disintegrates their trust.

That wasnt my experience. We had Santa and it didnt lead me not to trust my parents. I loved them for giving me a magical childhood with Santa. I figured it out gradually starting at about six and gave up Santa completely at the beginning of second grade. I saw it as fun pretending.If you dont feel comfortable with Santa,fine but a few posters are being awfully close minded on the subject of Santa and accusing others of lying.Not having Santa.isnt going to destroy kids either. Not talking about you.I just believe everyone has the right to celebrate Christmas with or without Santa or Jesus and shouldnt be criticized.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2018 01:07PM by bona dea.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...a few
> posters are being awfully close minded on the
> subject of Santa and accusing others of lying.

Let's be clear (and honest):

Child: "Is Santa real, and do my presents come from Santa?"
Parent: "Yes, absolutely."

Parent is lying.

Child: "Is Santa real, and do my presents come from Santa?"
Parent: "No, but it's a fun pretend thing we do at Christmas."

Parent isn't lying.

People can celebrate any way they want to. Nobody suggested otherwise. That has nothing to do with the facts above.

Whatever. You are telling people how to handle Santa in a rather authoritarian way. It may be right for you, but others can and will disagree and calling them liars for telling their kids that Santa is real isnt helpful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2018 02:32PM by bona dea.

Hie said: "People can celebrate any way they want to. Nobody suggested otherwise."

What exactly is authoritarian about that?

He is implying that anyone who lets their kid believe in Santa is lying.His 'my way is right and yours is wrong' is authoritarian.He can raise his kids without Santa but using words like 'lie' isnt helpful.A small white lie is not a problem for most people. If it is for you, dont do it,but let others do what they like without name calling

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He is implying that anyone who lets their kid
> believe in Santa is lying.

Anyone who tells their kids santa is real is lying. That's a fact.
I didn't say anything, in any way, about "lets their kid."
Stop making things up.

> His 'my way is right and
> yours is wrong' is authoritarian.

I never once said anything of the sort.
Stop making things up.

> He can raise his
> kids without Santa but using words like 'lie' isnt
> helpful.

Telling kids santa is real IS lying.
Helpful or not, it's a fact.

> A small white lie...

So you agree, it IS a lie. Finally, you're being honest.

> is not a problem for
> most people. If it is for you, dont do it,but let
> others do what they like without name calling

You're the only one who used name calling.
Read my posts -- not a single instance of name calling.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Whatever. You are telling people how to handle
> Santa in a rather authoritarian way. It may be
> right for you, but others can and will disagree
> and calling them liars for telling their kids that
> Santa is real isnt helpful.

I didn't tell anybody how to handle anything.

Telling kids santa is real IS lying. I didn't call anybody a liar, I simply pointed out the fact that telling kids santa is real is lying. Because it is.

You and others might be OK with that lying. That's your decision to make. And I don't really care whether you do it or not.

But don't pretend it's not lying -- it is.
Saying it isn't is *also* lying.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> but a few posters are being awfully close minded on the
> subject of Santa and accusing others of lying.

Actually, I believe it is the other way around - a few posters are being close minded in denying the fact that they are lying about Santa to their innocent children.


I will share a personal experience of this:

When my oldest son lost his first tooth, I told him that a very special and magical fairy, known as the Tooth Fairy, would come and give him a treasure in exchange for his tooth! However, he had to follow very precise instructions or the Tooth Fairy wouldn't come. My son had carefully wrapped his tooth, placed it under his pillow, and promptly fell asleep. Later that evening, I snuck into my son's room, carefully extracted his tooth from under his pillow, and left behind a small treasure box full of coins. Being that he was my oldest child, and this was my first go at playing the Tooth Fairy, I wanted to preserve this memory for myself, so I carefully placed his tooth in my own treasure box in my nightstand.

The next morning my son was over the moon with the treasure left under his pillow! I was thrilled to see his joy and congratulated my self for a job well done.

Three day later, I had gathered up a huge armful of laundry and was shuffling to the laundry room when I about ran right over my little son. Startled, I looked over the pile to make sure he was alright, but he had the most distressed look on his face! Worried that I had hurt him, I quickly asked, "James. are you okay?" He raised his tightly clenched chubby hand. He slowly opened his fingers, and there, in his palm, lay his little white tooth. James looked me right in the eye. While choking back grief and disbelief, his plain truth pierced me to the center of my soul, "You LIED to me!"

Of course, once he had exposed the lie, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus went at one fell swoop. He also felt duty bound to inform his three younger siblings of the deception.

To this day, as innocent as I thought it was, I know that my "lie" fundamentally changed my son's relationship with me. Sure, he knew that I loved him, but he never regarded me with complete trust again. This distrust manifested itself in various ways over the years.

Precisely.

A lie is a lie. Sometimes telling a lie may be the morally appropriate thing to do--which is a position the Santa crowd may seriously want to advance. But it is disingenuous to insist that because I really, really want to say something it is no longer a falsehood.

Look to the child and ask what the child is thinking. Respect that they won't always see things in adult terms.

It isn't lying to allow them to enjoy pretending to have an imaginary friend or a set of invisible tea party friends.

Expected children to believe that the thinking has been done deprives them of stretching and growing normally in the same way the mormon church pulls this stunt on members.

I've already proven your assertion that I know "nothing [about] child development" false. So why repeat it? Tossing false insults when you don't agree with someone is rather childish and dishonest.

> It isn't lying to allow them to enjoy pretending to have an
> imaginary friend or a set of invisible tea party friends.

As I already pointed out, children didn't come up with santa on their own. It's not a tea party, it's not their own imagination, it's something society and adults came up with and foists on them. And if you tell them it's real, that IS lying. Especially if they ask if it's real or not, and you tell them it is.

That's just foolishness. A lie is by definition a false statement made intentionally. It has nothing to do with the purpose of the lie or the mentality of the person to whom the lie is told.

We all lie. Someone asks if we are having a nice day and we say 'yes' even when it is not true. Or someone crosses a boundary and seeks information to which they are not entitled, and we dissemble rather than provide that information. A Nazi patrol asks if you have seen a Jew hidden somewhere and you lie because that is the moral thing to do.

If you think telling a lie to a child is morally appropriate, say so. That is an acceptable stance. But don't distort the meaning of the word "lie" to make yourself feel good about it.

Willingly bear responsibility for your own moral decisions.

And I respectfully disaagree. No one I know has been harmed by believing in Santa and they carry on the tradition with their kids. Technically it may be lie, but it is pretty harmless for most kids. You do what you like and give others the same privilege. I have a no
problem with you telling your kids that there is no Santa, but I object to people, and there are one or two on the board, who act as theirs is only correct way.If you arent one of them,I am not talking about you.

Here we go again. . .

> And I respectfully disaagree. No one I know has
> been harmed by believing in Santa and they carry
> on the tradition with their kids.

Did I say children are harmed by it?


--------------
> Technically it
> may be lie, but it is pretty harmless for most
> kids.

Then there is no problem with telling the lie. My problem is with people who speak falsehood and then deny that they are doing so.


-------------------
> You do what you like and give others the
> same privilege.

Where did I tell others what to do? Nowhere. That is your interpolation.


-----------------
> I have a no
> problem with you telling your kids that there is
> no Santa, but I object to people, and there are
> one or two on the board, who act as theirs is only
> correct way.

You don't know what I taught my kids. I have not said what I did, nor what others should do.


-----------------------
> If you arent one of them,I am not
> talking about you.

Then why do you write it to me? And why do you begin with "I respectfully disagree" when you don't have any idea how I reared my children? Are you advocating the teaching of Santa stories to children or the description of lies as truth?

What precisely are you saying and to whom precisely.

That particular post was addressed to the poster who says her son was harmed by finding the tooth henleft fornthemTooth Fairy. There you go again assuming all my posts are about you. I hadnt even read your post when I replied to hers. Order of posts sometimes gets mixed up.The poster I object to and have argued with elsewhere in the thread is Kolob,not you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2018 06:56PM by bona dea.

There is nothing wrong with imagination and fantasy for children.

It's a vital part of growing up.

However adults who attempt to turn children into mini adults really don't get it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2018 03:45AM by matt.

I'm definitely not a religious person anymore, but I still enjoy celebrating Christmas. Throughout history humanity has had a big celebration around the winter solstice, with lights, giving gifts, feasting, singing, etc. Celebrations at this time of year were thousands of years old before Christ was even born. Different cultures have changed the name and the reason to suit their own needs - Saturnalia, Christmas, etc.

So for me Christmas isn't as much about Jesus as it is feeling a connection to humanity over thousands of years of history. I'm more amused than anything about how these ancient traditions have been manipulated and changed to accommodate Jesus.

For anyone interested in more detail I recommend "4000 Years of Christmas."

FWIW...

I certainly don't miss God & Jesus...but I sure as hell miss Santa!!!

Or so it seems to me...

but I did include Santa and I included Jesus while I was mormon. It is nice not to have to have the guilt of keeping Christ in Christmas. Now I celebrate Christmas as a tradition. I have a lot of decorations that my mother gave me or made me, and so I put them up even if one is a nativity set.

I was shocked when I found out who Santa was when I was 8 years old. Didn't believe my sister at first, but my mother always worked really hard to make Christmas special on a very strict budget.

Christmas, when I was going through hard times, gave me something to look forward to, a change in the everyday life. I'm slowly decorating, slower than usual this year. Not the best of years this year, but it helps for me to be part of our family traditions.

Personally, I think Christmas is all about family. And I better go out and move some of the outdoor lights before it gets too dark.

And my neighbor tries really hard to outdo Clark Griswald. You can't help but get in the mood for the holidays with him out decorating every evening.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2018 05:54PM by cl2.

Doesn't still calling it Christmas keep him there?

We celebrate Solstice - not the pagan gods - just a celebration of life and our innate connection to the seasons and cycles of the earth.

I have a 6 year old granddaughter so Santa is still in evidence here at Christmastime. Jesus....not so much with me...

Christmas for us just means a family dinner these days.

I grew up with Santa, but not Jesus. Christmas was about children's Christmas specials on TV, Santa Claus, presents and a family dinner.

I get where you are coming from. I thought all the kids knew he wasn't real as a young kid, preschool/kindgerten. I thought they were just kidding and having fun. I was the youngest of 5 boys and I knew by 2 he wasn't real.

Now with three kids my wife didn't know he wasn't real until eight or nine. And it was quite magical to watch kids believe in that.

I do not think it is harmful for kids to believe in not true things. Santa didn't hurt anybody. And it is important, in my opinion, to growth of the imagination and discovery of things that are genuinely real.

Christianity is a different story, that hurts people. It destroys lives and families. So I don't think the two are comparable on a moral plain.

We don't have Jesus or Santa at Christmas when we're at home in France, but when we go to Peru to spend it with my son and his family (as we will be this year), we can't escape it: Santa is EVERYWHERE, accompanied by lashings of fake snow - which seems ridiculous seeing the temperature in Lima is usually 28°C (82°F).

Tom in Paris



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2018 10:20AM by Soft Machine.

My family hails from Belgium and Spain. They have different traditions of giving toys and sweets to the kids: in Belgium, it's Sinterklaas (Saint Nicholas) and his African friend Peter who do it on Dec 6 or the evening before. In Spain, it's the Three Kings or Reyes Magos (one Nordic, one Mediterranean, one black) Who do it a month later on Jan 6.

The days inbetween, around christmas and NYE are not about any fictional figure. They're about the family. There will always be a nativity set under the christmas tree, but that is merely decoration, not an object of adoration.

As if lying to kids that Santa is real isn't enough, check out this Christian Bible lesson for kids. How in the heck are kids supposed to come away thinking Jesus is real and Superman isn't? Santa is real or not? Jesus has superpowers or not?

Here's a swell activity for your confused kid:


https://ministry-to-children.com/the-ultimate-superhero-lectonary-lesson-from-mark-129-39/


Activity B – The Ultimate Superhero – “Jesus is My Superhero” Belt & Cuffs

Supplies – toilet paper rolls, ribbon, construction paper, scissors, glue sticks, double stick tape, markers, stickers or other decorations

Pre-Class Prep – Cut a vertical line up each toilet paper tube
Give each child two toilet paper tubes, scissors, a glue stick, ribbon, and some construction paper.

Using the craft supplies, have the kids design and create their own “Jesus is My Superhero” logo. Attach the logo to a length of ribbon with the double stick tape, and tie it around their waist. Then decorate the toilet paper tubes to match to be worn as cuffs.

~~~
So keep those toilet paper tubes, folks!


I think the Santa thing is conditioning for kids to be lied to about God too as adults. The kid wouldn't know until later if he was lied to and he looks for a way to justify it by lying to his own kids. Have fun sorting all that out, kid!

I've always been honest with the kids, Santa like other characters including Jesus is a collective projection or archetype intending to embody certain symbols, sort of like an egregore representing certain socio-cultural norms.