Jesus preached love. The Mormon church seems at odds with his teachings. Am I wrong?

I won't get into whether or not "jesus preached love."
Other than to say it's not that straightforward.

I will point out that mormons are *afraid* of homosexuality. Because homosexuals won't be pumping out (biologically, anyway) new little kids born to temple-married parents to be indoctrinated up for the next generation of tithe-payers. It breaks their business model.

Exactly correct. Well stated!!!

Yes, but homosexuals weren't going to produce many offspring anyway. The hostility to gay people may persuade some low percentage of them to marry heterosexually and to reproduce, but that number may well be swamped by the those who leave because they are gay or have gay loved ones. On balance, I'm not sure animosity toward homosexuals is a net positive in terms of population and donations.

I'd say there are two other factors at work. One is the general conservative Christian feeling that OT norms about sex, as opposed to mixed textiles and shellfish, remain operative.

The other--which I think doesn't get enough attention--is a reaction against polygamy. From the early 1940s through the early 20th century Mormonism was rightfully associated in the public mind with sexual license. The church felt it necessary to counteract that impression. So it moved from a libertine position of polygamy, polyandry, and wife swapping to a stance of being purer than Caesar's Wife.

If plural marriage hadn't become an enormous political problem, the church might have had more latitude to adopt a more reasonable attitude towards human sexuality.

The thing is though, while homosexual couples don't have "whoops!" babies, a lot of us do have children through surrogacy, adoption, IVF, etc. We're pretty smart and know how babies are made, even if we can't make them with our partners. Hence the whole recent church move to officially bar the children of homosexual couples from participation in the church until 18.

LW, you make good points, and those are certainly factors.

But I look back to the blacks and the priesthood issue...

The church was called "racist" for a long time. Didn't bother them. They held fast. Doubled down, even.

Then all of a sudden, being racist was threatening to impact their financial bottom line (BYU was being cut off from sports TV revenues, lawsuits regarding Scouting were coming up, other financial pressures were coming to bear)...and a "revelation" appeared changing everything.

It didn't matter that most of the members were still racists (many still are, a holdover from previous teachings). It didn't matter that they had scriptural backing. The bottom line was threatened, so they changed.

So until/if not accepting homosexuality affects their bottom line, they'll hold fast. Double down, even. IMHO :)

I agree. I'm just explaining why the church has been so remarkably resistant to change in this regard.

Clearly the political cost of ostracizing gay people is already rising, but they keep holding on. I believe that their commitment on this issue is, as Boyd said, very strong and hence that they will wait longer, and suffer more damage, than on almost all other issues.

With regard to your point, I think changing the policy on non-heterosexuality may be as difficult for the church as lifting the priesthood ban was. Both go to the heart of Mormonism.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
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> With regard to your point, I think changing the
> policy on non-heterosexuality may be as difficult
> for the church as lifting the priesthood ban was.
> Both go to the heart of Mormonism.

Maybe even harder.
After all, you can't immediately identify a gay person by their skin color...

That's exactly it. The only thing that you ever need to know about the Mormon Church is, "Follow the money."

They're always preaching that the members should marry early and have as many babies as possible and that's not as likely to happen with a same-sex couple.

There's just no profit in it for them.

That's all they got left to hate in this P.C. world. Somebody has to be the enemy or the Mormons can't be the victors. Every protagonist must have an antagonist.

Also we are talking about a particular type of old white men who grew up in a time when most of the country felt the way they do. A lot of wonderful old white men opened their hearts and minds and are fine with the gays--even got to know some and like some.

But not the Gerontocracy. They are the old white men giving us other old white men a bad name. They are clinging to this last bit of bigotry like it's their last chance be superior. You can't be superior unless someone is inferior. Y'know?

Of course, they still have the women to treat badly so they can always take comfort in that.

Mormons hate this because they call it the "crime against nature" there isn't another sin (even terrorism, or murder, cursing god or heaven) that gets this specific really bad label.

There is something about "gender" that is THE sacred cow of mormondom. It's an ideological foundation that is extremely threatening. You can be a mobster and kill people, you can be a robber or swindler and make it to the temple. Mormons will respect these criminals, but if a person questions gender it's a line a mormon can NOT cross.

This may have come from SWK and BKP experiences with homosexual persons that left a bad taste in their mouths and they found them to be pains in the butt.

Oaks tells them to hate non-celibate homosexuals. If Oaks told them homosexuals and their marriages were perfectly okay, Mormons would go along with that.

The GAs could solve many problems in one fell swoop by stopping being assholes.

An apostolic evangelical acquaintance of mine isn't keen on homosexuality either. Her narrow view on who will go to heaven won't include me as I don't have the kind of relationship with God that she deems proper or formal enough. By not practicing Christianity as she does, I'm a sinner. But then so is practically everyone else in the world according to her standards.

Mormons aren't the only religious group that preaches the love of Jesus while relegating anyone not like themselves to a flaming, horrible eternity.

There seems to be an innate human bias against those who are different from the norm. Or rather, their norm, be it religion, skin color, even deafness or blindness or not speaking the same language. ("Everybody understands English, maybe I just have to speak loudly and slowly...) For most people, because they are attracted to the opposite sex, and the purpose of sex is to have offspring, that's all that needs to be said. They don't feel attraction to the same sex (or worse, the occasional twinge) it is aberrant, and should be shunned. Worse, it's not always immediately apparent, so finding out your friend is one of THEM (or one of THOSE), can feel like a betrayal. "I like this guy, how could he be so evil and me not Realize? Is he after me? Is he doing it just to thumb his nose at society?" The idea that it is innate is anathema. That's why for so long, gay people have had to go about Sub Rosa, like those with no testimony among Mormons, or Camaro fans at a Mustang convention. Apologies for the long, run-on paragraph but it's late. But that's what happens when you deny your true self for too long.

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?

Langston Hughes

Should a left-handed man and a left-handed woman be allowed to marry, or should they be run through with a javelin?

The Sub Rosa life. Your understanding of our lives is very touching to me personally, Hervey. I lived that life for so long as so many of us did. Especially us Mormon BiC gays. Thank you for those words.

There were the stages. The terror of the first realization. The desperate hope that it really was stage. The sickening thought of what I would have to do to be a good Mormon. And then finally, walking into the Sun Tavern down by the rail road tracks in SLC shaking like a leaf and the doors swung open and the music was blaring and people were dancing and laughing and hugging and sending drinks and I felt absolutely beautifully human for the first time in 22 years.

Sub Rosa had an upside, but what I lost in all the years before was monumental. Faking life. And because of that, I love the poem you ended with. My dream? I had to raise it from the dead.

ummmmm MORmONS Hate EVERYONE including other MORmONS

LD$ inc does hate gays
but LD$ Inc does not hate gays enough to reject their tithing payments

I think the hate is learned and if it is not sustained, then other aspects of their belief system are thrown into doubt.

Based on some obscure Bible verses, Mormon leaders have taught that homosexual actions are immoral. A person like I was, just assumed that people got into wild sexual experimentation and that led them into same sex encounters. I didn't have a grip on the idea of sexual orientation (although I had heard those words). Admittedly, Spencer W. Kimball's chain in Miracle of Forgiveness that begins with masturbation and ends with bestiality with homosexuality as a train stop along the way seemed to be weird.

I would later develop an understanding that sexual orientation is an innate, immutable characteristic and what Mormonism was asking gay and lesbian people to do was unhealthy for them. It was also wrong to discriminate against people based on their inborn characteristics. Christ's injunction to love one's neighbor as oneself as one of the two great commandments also made any theological consideration about a few obscure verses in Leviticus, Paul's letters and so forth irrelevant.

If we were truly trying to love one another why would we not listen to our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters and try to understand them? If we truly loved our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters, why would we perpetuate a social system that was driving some to feel there was no alternative but to take their own lives?

They have them but they don't know them.

It's not necessarily they hate them-
but they sure don't like them.

Mormonism likes to separate.
Have something to be afraid of.

Usually x, xx, or xxx.
It's usually made up.

M@t

FIFY

In the babies versus money argument homosexuals win the money argument if my friends are any kind of decent sample.

I'm sure some denominations see gay donations as a thing.

Spencer W. Kimball?

Black Racism was Bring'em Young

Word of Wisdom hate was Heber J. Grant

i am clairvoyant, and know this...it is very simple. they are not spiritually-awakened enough yet.

while all mormons are aware of a 'premortal existence' as a spirit, they have a distorted view on this. nobody was told the truth on this.

* if * they were truly awakened, and actually could have premortal memory of who and what they were before they were biologically-incarnated, they would transcend their beliefs, and thus, be able to debunk any religious dogma.

they would then know that all spirits are equal.

yes, literally all. they would know that * any * heirarchial order is not of 100% perfect true love. (more on that, later, read on)

adding up 2+2, they would then also know that any entity of 100% perfect true love, would * not * judge or hate anyone based on their sexual preference.

they would also know that the biological body that you are currently incarnated in, does not necessarily match the form that you always were, as you prefered yourself to be, as a spirit....this includes gender, and preference of gender as per what you would desire as a mate.

but, nearly everyone who is born in a biological body, has had their minds erased (not by choice as mormon dogma tries to sell) of all their knowledge.

they would, if awake, know that this is not of true love, to impose, onto, or, to steal from, anyone....

which is what manipulative entities do, who pose as those who are 'of god' or part of any religious belief-system.

these entities get their rocks off on doing this to people...just to impose suffering, and to keep them down.

they love to incarnate souls into bodies that are not of their correct gender.

this confuses the victim, and causes the victim to struggle and be hated by those who are indoctrinated and brainwashed by whatever belief system or society that they are in.

everything about being incarnated as a biological being, (none of them are true-immortal) has come from a 'false-light' heirarchic paradigm, that came from a rebellion, (maybe this rebellion is part of what could be mentioned in religous texts, but nobody knows this, no substantiated proof that the religous texts are talking about this specific rebellion, it could be something else.)

and beings that are aligned to this, have taken over every dimension level that has been used to support biological lifeforms (we are at the lowest one. every level above ours can see us, while we cannot see them, unless clairvoyant)

these entities often pose as deities and others aligned to various belief-systems...(including this one) and are all in favour of anything that has anything to do with imposing any form of suffering and/or death...

often the excuse, is to 'make you' -the victim- allegedly, 'learn and grow' and this is repeated often in the religious dogma and is a form of brainwashing to get you to accept this stockholm-syndrome.

any being of 100% perfect true love (who are in the minority) are opposed to that. (but few mormons would ever question)

the manipulators who are aligned to this, have taken control of this planet, (and many others that also have humans and humanoids) long ago, and are responsible for souls being incarnated into biological bodies (of any type, human or otherwise) that grow old, get sick, and die, and are not at all anything near the perfection that you or i have had, before we were ever born.

why would we need to "learn and grow" and be "taught lessons" as the mormons (and other religious beliefs) try to sell, when we already had those things before they were * wrongfully stolen * from us? nobody asks that one!!

before you were born, you were perfect. already.

all you required was a change done to the etheric energy of your soul-body to make it so that you could not have your awareness divided (and memory erased) and cloned into a biological lifeform, and thereby trapped, into a control-grid of imposed suffering, in a form that does not match your true form.

if you had that change done, that would have given you true-immortality, you never would have been biologically born, and never would have suffered....and, whatever gender you were then, you still would be...and whatever mate you had then, you would still have...and you would never grow old or get sick or die.

the manipulators are 'jealous' and do not want us to have that which would empower us to supernaturally take back all that was stolen from us, and cause for us to be true-immortals also...so they have religions (like this one) that keep farting out the daffodils of the rainbow-chasing dogma, to keep us chasing after the dangling-carrot, and other things, to keep us distracted.

Dr Woo, I presume.

“they are not spiritually-awakened enough yet.”

Yet? They are deliberately put to sleep. Like Dorothy in the poppy field.

Homophobia predates SWK and BKP.

Most of the rest of the US has moved on. Mormonism (oops) didn't.

Why? Part of it is bureaucratic inertia, part of it is the tricky move of adjusting the theology and part of it is just down right meanness.

I should add part of it is fear of alienating is principal economic base.

And I should get an RfM account.

You Too? Wrote:
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> Homophobia predates SWK and BKP.

Racism predated Young. Teetotaling predated Grant.

It was something like a "prophet" or a consensus of them which made the whole org stick in their mud and muddy their feet with institutionalizing their hate.

It didn't even start in Mormonism with SWK and BKP.

That's part of what I object to.

You can look at Cannon, Joseph F. Smith, George Albert Smith, Clark and Callis for starters. It just didn't come out of no where in Mormonism and was institutionalized SWK and BKP, devils that they were.

http://www.nomorestrangers.org/timeline-of-mormon-thinking-about-homosexuality/

http://www.nomorestrangers.org/timeline-of-mormon-thinking-about-homosexuality/

http://www.nomorestrangers.org/timeline-of-mormon-thinking-about-homosexuality/

Wow. Screwed that up.


http://www.connellodonovan.com/etiology.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

I didn't say it did.

What I'm saying is there was an eventual consensus backed by someone or something prominent in Mormonism from a previous time. It wasn't as racist, teetotalling, or homophobic in the past but someone or a consensus of people made these hates take the power of revelation.

That is how I read (misread) Gheco.

They don't.

And you would know this because . . . ?

They just think they and their kids have gay cooties. It could be contagious.

or worse, they'll see that the parents are delightful, and the kids are well loved, secure and thriving, and what would THAT say about their dogma?

Rodger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jesus preached love. The Mormon church seems at
> odds with his teachings. Am I wrong?

The LDS church claims to be the church of Christ but it really doesn't follow the teachings of Christ. The LDS church went back to Old Testament times. It went back to polygamy and it went back to temples. Christ said he fulfilled the law and our bodies were temples. Christ never said go grab yourself some extra wives. The hate of homosexuals in the bible is found in the Old Testament. Sodom and Gamorrah is often used as an example of why God hates homos but then of course we are talking about homosexual rape.

The LDS church didn't like black people either but then they got their arm twisted and ol Spencer W Kimball had a revelation fearing a loss of tax exemption. Oh well. Mormons don't like me either because I laugh at them and call them fools. Love the hate and who cares what fools think.

Being hit on by a gay guy is not a very fun experience but otherwise they are just people like anybody else. Just had a scary experience one time with a very aggressive gay dude. They are not all the soft feminine type like they make you believe. Maybe they are just scared of what they do not understand.

Adamj717 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe they are just scared of what they
> do not understand.

Maybe you are.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Adamj717 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Maybe they are just scared of what they
> > do not understand.
>
> Maybe you are.

Maybe so. But there are gays scared of straights as well so it goes both ways. My father is gay and he is a scary son of a b#tch.

I'm bisexual and friends with homosexuals. I can't speak for other people but I'm not scared of straights but scared straight because of hate sometimes regardless of what orientation the person hating is.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Adamj717 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Maybe they are just scared of what they
> > do not understand.
>
> Maybe you are.

I'm actually scared of most men whether they are gay or straight and for good reason. Have to take anxiety pills just to be around them in this world.

I get that. I'm hugging you virtually unless that is a problem for you.

Typically well put. A serious point with your inimitable sense of humor as well!

I had to look up "inimitable." I think that I was complimented. If so thanks. If not, I know I'm a bit difficult to understand and I'm sorry.

It was assuredly a compliment.

Elder Berry Wrote:
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> I get that. I'm hugging you virtually unless that
> is a problem for you.

Yes it's ok I am a little better with the hugging men thing I think. Better with the touching people thing I think more than before. I'm still a work in progress. Been around violent and angry men for most of my life. They can go violent on you quick. Women don't really go violent on you in my experience. They are safer to be around.

Adamj717 Wrote:
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> Been around violent and angry
> men for most of my life.

You are hanging around the wrong men.

I know who you are talking about and I avoid those. It isn't to say that some can't be charmers but their charms quickly disappear for me completely when I see their seething insides.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2018 06:45PM by Elder Berry.

Maybe tcss are scared of gays is what I meant to say because they don't understand it. I am sure there are great gay people out there I just have not met very many besides the leaders of the church. A lot of those leaders are gay including my father.

We all share some commonality, my gay friends and I. That includes my "ex." And it is his ex boyfriends who are my friends. We are all very close. A nicer group of people you'll never meet. They watch out for me.

If my ex were to change to straight, he would no longer be him. Hiding who he was for his young life has been very destructive to him. We all wait hopefully that he will find someone and be able to settle down and be happy. We had our bad times, but that is in the past. I blame the lds leaders more than anyone for what happened to both of us.

I like what Hervey and Done and Done said above. What he lost was monumental. What I and the kids lost was monumental. We are still working on "raising the dream" for my ex and the kids. I did find my dream, though not perfect, in my boyfriend. He gave me back my dignity. When I watched Bohemian Rhapsody, it was so cathartic. I was never a big Queen fan until then. "I've paid my dues, time after time . . ."

What the LDS church has done to the gays is reprehensible. And it is much FAR REACHING than anyone can ever imagine.

Dude - now you know how literally every woman has felt at one time or another being aggressively pursued by a man.

Exactly.

The exclusion of homosexuals, on some level, is found in most of human history. It's been considered "unnatural" and when religion is added: "against God's Laws". Humans are very good at creating deities in their own image.
It's not about hate so much, as it's about an inability to understand that homosexuality is part of humanity.

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
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> The exclusion of homosexuals, on some level, is
> found in most of human history.

I'd like some cites on that.

You Too? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SusieQ#1 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The exclusion of homosexuals, on some level, is
> > found in most of human history.
>
> I'd like some cites on that.

Sometimes it's a bit more acceptable, other times, not.
It's there in writings and art. Keep looking.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2018 10:08PM by SusieQ#1.

Your assertion, your job to prove it. Not my job to keep looking. What are your citations?

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's not about hate so much, as it's about an
> inability to understand that homosexuality is part
> of humanity.

In the past maybe this argument worked but today with so much history uncovering homosexuality probabilities and so much research on how it is a part of us, people in developed societies can't use the "inability to understand." It is now about hate. Some people hate asparagus and some people hate homosexuals.

Mormonism hates outliers.

Mormonism hates those who refuse to deny their true selves for the good of the corporation.

They shun gays, beautiful single women who sit in the front row, and historians. The list goes on.

They want no part of what they call rebels. Heavy metal listeners were the sons of the devil in their eyes.

The leaders hate homosexuals because they are jealous. Gays can have all the sex they want and not get someone pregnant.

I saw some of that when I was dealing with the leaders all those years ago. There are many other issues, too.

The leaders (all male of course) just don't get it and they don't care to get it. They are incapable of putting themselves in someone else's shoes.

We had someone who used to post here whose wife had an affair with a neighbor lady. He talked to the bishop about it and the bishop did nothing. The leaders are much more "interested" in what gay men are up to.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2018 05:58PM by cl2.

It seems to me that heterosexuality is fundamental to Mormon doctrine, more so probably than it is to most other Christian churches. For example, ultimate exaltation to the highest degree of glory for a Mormon man requires that he be married and sealed to one or more women in a Mormon temple. So Mormons become committed to this outlook that heterosexuality is fundmental. And when they find that there are a significant number of gay people in the world for whom homosexuality does not appear to be a choice, this can lead to a lot of cognitive dissonance. It's hard when one's theology runs up against facts in the world that the theology has no provision or explanation for. I feel that because of this the leaders of the Mormon church can see no way to truly accomodate or make provision for gay people in their membership.

A good point.

Very true, commongentile. To the Mormons, the family unit on earth is a reflection of our spiritual family in Heaven, with a father, mother and children. To them, this is the model for the ideal home. A same-sex relationship does not fit that mold.

Rodger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jesus preached love. The Mormon church seems at
> odds with his teachings. Am I wrong?

IT's all about loving themselves.

M@t

Mormonism is heavy on control. The nuclear family (minus the spirit polygamy that's sacred instead of secret) is what the plan calls for, so marry someone of the opposite gender, have a litter of future Mormons, pay tithing, and OBEY. Anything different than what the leaders say is seen as of Satan. Like someone of the same gender? That isn't in the plan! Conform now!

They want to control people down to who they're attracted to.

For me, the question is not why mormons hate homosexuals, but why do decent people go along with that?

Great question. Why do decent people go along with a lot of intolerance crap. Maybe they aren't decent by a better understanding of decency?