The problem isn't the LDS Church, or religion, or this or that pop culture crisis de jour, the problem is the species Homo sapiens. We are like a cancer on the Earth. We mar Earth with countless roads, dams, power lines, cars, bombs/guns, ski lifts, cell towers, stadiums, etc., overwhelmingly for our benefit. The world would work perfectly without us.

-------

After years contemplating "life stuff", I created a personal haiku for myself:

Life is short
There is no answer
Don't waste time searching

Isn't humanity just displaying it's own nature? Whether we evolved to be the way we are or if we were created to be like this isn't our collective action just a result of our evolution/creation?

So how could we be an enemy of nature if we are just acting on our nature? Particularly if we are the way we are because of nature?

Jacko Mo Mo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The world
> would work perfectly without us.

It did so for millions of years.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jacko Mo Mo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The world
> > would work perfectly without us.
>
> It did so for millions of years.

And it will again, after a while.

Is there anything more perverse than a Homo sapien, especially one living in an industrialized country, claiming to be an environmentalist.

If you mean mass extinction events, collisions with earth-shattering asteroids, mile-thick ice sheets covering most of North America, Europe and Eurasia, volcanoes wiping out entire ecosystems, animals killing each other for food, animals killing plants, plants killing animals, bacteria and parasites devouring their hosts....

Well, yes indeed, everything will worked perfectly. Seems like it's working perfectly now.

Only humans can pretend to imagine what is ideal from the perspective of a different species of animal or plant...and then feel guilty about the role of humans in undermining that ideal situation.

The idea that "humans are a cancer" is an ironic solipsism. It is totally based on a human perspective and understanding, based on human conceptions of what is ideal. Jupiter doesn't give a fork about what humans (or any subset thereof) view as ideal. Jupiter's environment is equally hostile to humans, whales, dolphins, cockroaches, black-widow spiders, dinosaurs, gerbils and kittens.

Thank you! I just learned a new word!

Let's get metaphysical, metaphysical!

"As a metaphysical position, solipsism goes further to the conclusion that the world and other minds do not exist."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

Maybe the Earth wanted plastic.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c

I thought it was in its core with the lost 10 tribes living in a literal plastic world that we have to save them from?

I agree.

And to be and even bigger Debbie Downer, I have no hope that humanity can change for the better.

There are individual exceptions, but in general, humans simply can't plan long term and don't care to. They will pee in their cereal until there is no cereal left.

In general, they don't care about animals, ecology or anything else when it comes to a chance to get money (resources), power or convenience. Many keep going to church where they learn it is OK to breed uncontrollably and God will fix things later.


That said, this is the best it gets. I feel very fortunate. It's a wonderful thing to have had the chance to live at all.

"It's a wonderful thing to have had the chance to live at all."


If only it lasted a little longer.

Per 3X, he wishes it was longer. I don't. Life has been too long already.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In general, they don't care about animals, ecology
> or anything else when it comes to a chance to get
> money (resources), power or convenience. Many keep
> going to church where they learn it is OK to breed
> uncontrollably and God will fix things later.

In general I believe people don't care because they are animals.

of the planet, humanity's impact is fairly modest.

Humanity didn't wipe out the dinosaurs.

Humanity didn't kill all the marine life that once thrived in "Lake" Bonneville.

Humanity didn't cover the continent of Antarctica under thousands of feet of ice.

So it doesn't make sense to me to talk of humanity as though it's the worst thing that ever could have happened to an otherwise perfect world.

Creatures were brutally murdering each other long before humanity came along, without hesitation or any pangs of conscience. Only humanity seems to ever feel any guilt about what they do.

That said, I often feel some despair about humanity. There seems to be an imbalance. Our perceptual limitations make us easy prey for scams, hoaxes and lies. Our animal instincts make us lash out in fear and anger. Our imagination runs ahead of our ability to accurately perceive and understand reality.

Wally Prince Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Our imagination
> runs ahead of our ability to accurately perceive
> and understand reality.

I wouldn't have it otherwise.

Imagination wouldn't be imagination otherwise. I was thinking about situations where people confuse imagination for reality and make bad decisions based on illusions. The general idea behind a "demon haunted world." Burning "witches" and things like that.

That is a terrible price we have to pay for our amazing frontal lobes.

“Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.” - John Lennon

All this environmentalism is sold by rich people who pollute with their armored SUVs, multiple large homes and private jets far more than the average person does.

I try to be as good to the earth as I can. My carbon footprint is actually probably way lower than most people who preach environmentalism to us.

Then here's the reality. Some day the earth is going to be consumed by the sun as the sun expands into a red giant star. Before that the earth will probably be struck by a huge asteroid or have a super volcanic eruption. Most life will be killed but a few things will survive. We still have a few creatures leftover from the jurassic age.

You are worrying about things way bigger than you are. Now you aren't going to live that long when compared to the earth. You won't make much difference no matter what you do. So you can have a miserable life thinking you are a problem or you can have a better attitude and actually enjoy things. Just sayin.

While this is all true, I don't like the idea of the extremely wealthy and powerful benefitting from ecological disasters. And they will. If the sea levels rise to the point of submerging cities, those who own inland property at elevation stand to profit immensely. Same goes for countries with vast tracts of land above sea level. Tscc is already in that game. I'm sure the US government, the PRC and the Russian Federation have considered this as well.

Agreed. Since the church is ran by men, and not by a non-existent God. Therefore all the problems in the Mormon church are caused by men. Typically men who mean well, but still men. All men are at the heart self-interested assholes.

Reading these discussions helps me realize how differently we all see the world. It seems we can hardly agree on anything. The only thing we can agree on in this forum is that the church's foundational claims are false.

I see this life experience as an opportunity to learn and improve, not only as individuals, but collectively. This is especially possible in the information age where we can cross examine almost everything. Never has there been so much opportunity to explore and learn.

Certainly the world is plagued with a list of problems that seems endless. From my perspective that makes the challenges, and opportunities to explore and find solutions all the more necessary and possible.

Our lives have as much meaning as we assign to them. I believe there is good and evil, right and wrong and truth and error and it is important that we unite to explore these things and discover what is in our best interest collectively and take the opportunity to decide what we are going to do about it. This can't be accomplished without a more open and free discussion than is found on this forum.

We can all agree the church narrative is false. Even so it has had great success in advancing it's scope and influence in the world. That success was realized because its members and leaders united, organized and sacrificed to move it forward, because they believed in it.

I believe a collective effort to explore the landscape in search of better and more truth based answers could accomplish much. It would require adopting some guiding principles such as patience and forbearance of those who don't agree (demanding we keep discussions civil and polite), allowing all points of view, keeping and open-mind (I like the term "open minded skeptics") and examining the merit of any evidence offered.

These are just a few principles to begin with and they would have to be fiercely enforced. I believe there are quite a few of these "guiding principles" that could be identified and utilized. This may have been a little OT but it is my vision of the world.

Jacko Mo Mo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The problem isn't the LDS Church, or religion, or
> this or that pop culture crisis de jour, the
> problem is the species Homo sapiens. We are like
> a cancer on the Earth. We mar Earth with
> countless roads, dams, power lines, cars,
> bombs/guns, ski lifts, cell towers, stadiums,
> etc., overwhelmingly for our benefit. The world
> would work perfectly without us.
>
> -------

Don't blame me for them, please.
I could live w/o all thiS-hit.
There would be no RFM though.
And you couldn't post questions.

>
> After years contemplating "life stuff", I created
> a personal haiku for myself:
>
> Life is short
> There is no answer
> Don't waste time searching

Is that what we are doing? Searching...
For the Right reply, or what's Left?
Of the answer to your question?

No search - no find!
No need = know mind!

M@t