Don't forget things like this:

https://images.dailykos.com/images/619175/story_image/BeingPoor.jpg?1544059195

You Atheists and your compassion.

+ a million This is important.

Ruby Sue: Rocky bit my thumb. He's nervous.
Clark: Nervous or excited?
Ruby Sue: Shittin' bricks.
Clark: You shouldn't use that word.
Ruby Sue: Sorry. Shittin' rocks.

"I'm sure you mean well. But here is a fact of life. Not everything is even and fair. Seven year olds have quite a problem with this idea. In fact, we all tend to value fairness. But life is life. No matter how blessed and wealthy someone might be, there will ALWAYS be others who have more. Also, no matter how needy and poor someone might be, there will always be others who have less. That's reality. Saying it isn't so, isn't being honest."

I got this idea at an early age and it has helped me all my life. Others might want to try to grapple with it as well.

Don't tell children that life is always fair. It isn't and that's okay.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2018 10:14AM by Cheryl.

Well, it is one thing to teach or explain to a child (or an adult for that matter) that life isn't always fair. However, it is quite another thing when the statements, actions, or inaction of some mythological figure who supposedly epitomizes authority, trust, or reverence--be it Santa or Jesus--prefers one child (or adult) over another, as evidenced by their supposed statements, actions, or inaction.

It is like the mother who stands up in testimony meeting and credits God for saving her child in the wake of some natural disaster, when the children of other grieving parents perished. It is not just a fairness issue! For the religious it demands a theological explanation, which, of course, cannot be provided. In my opinion, when it comes to children at least, this issue implies moral responsibility--not only to one's own child, but to the "less favored" children of others.

Let us know how that goes. LOL

"You want to take personal responsibility for a cultural myth? Go for it. Let us see how that goes. LOL"
_________________________________________________

Don't be stupid. Obviously, the personal responsibility is for those parents perpetuating the myth for their own delight, and at the expense of its negative effects on their children and possibly other children.

And given your attitude about the real effects of such myths as suggested in the OP, it probably will not go well. But, then, that is you!

Parents of today did not make it up from scratch. The deal with it as they see fit.

I'll be as "stupid" or smart as anyone in this culture which isn't *your* problem.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "I'm sure you mean well. But here is a fact of
> life. Not everything is even and fair. Seven year
> olds have quite a problem with this idea.

That could be because they are seven. You are a teacher so you'll understand that before you teach algebra you have to teach addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. You'll also understand that if a kid isn't getting it you don't keep shoving the idea into their minds, you go back to the basics and reinforce those ideas.


> In fact, we all tend to value fairness. But life is life.
> No matter how blessed and wealthy someone might
> be, there will ALWAYS be others who have more.
> Also, no matter how needy and poor someone might
> be, there will always be others who have less.
> That's reality. Saying it isn't so, isn't being
> honest."

You are perpetuating a myth that should never be communicated. Specifically the meaning of the word fair. Fair means that the rules were followed and nothing unjust happened. The word you are searching for is equal and children don't have a problem with that word. They see inequality on a daily basis.


> I got this idea at an early age and it has helped
> me all my life. Others might want to try to
> grapple with it as well.

> Don't tell children that life is always fair. It
> isn't and that's okay.

The fact that things aren't always fair isn't actually something I want to teach my children. I want to teach them to act, being aware of how others act, but also independent of others. I want them to be an individual first and a part of society second. That way the concept of fairness isn't their concern. Their concern is for their own welfare and not the justness and unjustness of whatever situation they are in.

This person should not be using his infantile bias to inculcate children and make them feel like damaged goods. They might be needy, but they are good whole individuals who deserve to be treated respectfully, not lied to.

Life isn't fair. That's the truth. There's no way any one of us can change the whole world society and make everything fair and equal. We each can make the best of whatever situation we have.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2018 02:07PM by Cheryl.

Honestly, if you want to teach children to go around comparing themselves to others and then to accept that shit sucks be my guest.

I think that telling children that life isn't fair and then have them judge fairness by having them accept that some people are better off than others is wrong. I think to tell children that fair is defined by comparing themselves to others is wrong. I think it is wrong to tell children to see the differences in people and to judge the differences to be unfair is wrong.


Let me just say it straight. Telling children that life isn't fair and to just learn to live with that is wrong.

Why wouldn't you tell children that things aren't the same for everyone, something they are very aware of? And that the differences aren't any indication of what is fair or not.

Life isnt fair. You dont have to drum it into your kids every day or encourage comparisons, but not to acknowledge it at appropriate times is a denial of reality.

I'm honestly curious. What about life isn't fair?

Some people have money, happy families, supportive friends, good health, are attractive, intelligent and talented. Some are not and many are somewhere in between. Do you think it is fair that some people have an excess of everything and some are living in dire poverty or abuse? Kids notice this too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2018 01:08PM by bona dea.

Each of those things indicate differences. But are they intrinsically unfair?

Unfair and unequal mean different things to me. So no I don't believe that inequality means unfair. Inequality is imbalance or variability. It would not mean not following the rules.

Accepting inequality is a notion that allows children, who already see the inequality, to see the differences as opposed to despising the differences, which is the negative message that comes with life is unfair.

I don't agree but to each his own.I don't think any of us is saying we should make a big deal of everything that is unfair or complain to our kids constantly that we aren't equal to everyone, but when a really unfair occasion arises, I am not going to sweep it under the rug. If a child came to me saying it wasnt fair that his friend got to go an expensive trip and he didn't because we couldn't afford it, I would acknowledge his feelings while trying not to encourage self pity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2018 02:17PM by bona dea.

My parents dealt with that by saying Santa brought presents to all kids and was fair, but parents also give gifts which is why some kids get more. I didn't really like the fact that I had a friend who got twice as much as anyone else,but I knew it was her parents and,well, that was just how it was.You can't make everything fair although parents can try not to overdo. Whether you have Santa or not,some kids will get more

Today I make sure to donate a sack of toys in my late nephew's name to a charity or church which helps poor kids.That helps to insure that kids get something.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2018 12:33PM by bona dea.

The Santa myth lasts from 2-6...7 at the latest.

And the lesson is a good one: adults can be facetious, ironic, etc, and the world isn’t always “straight-up”. At six, entering grade one, it’s a good lesson.

This worry over Santa is as ridiculous, in my opinion, as this worry that ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside’ apologizes for date rape.


In other news: Yemenese are still being starved to death, the Uyghur Muslims are still being ethnically cleansed and persecuted, and Flint still doesn’t have clean water.

Happy fuckin’ Christmas.

"And the lesson is a good one: adults can be facetious, ironic, etc, and the world isn’t always “straight-up”. At six, entering grade one, it’s a good lesson."

COMMENT: Saying that any practice is tolerable or unobjectionable because, after all, it provides a good lesson in life, is short sighted, to say the least. The perpetuation of a mythical figure who is advertised as "real," and who claims his rewards are based upon whether children have been "naughty or nice" is not innocuous when such rewards are then distributed a financial rather than a behavioral basis. Clearly there are potential adverse psychological consequences, even if for the most part any hurt feelings are transitory. There are always those cases where the "lesson" was not learned, and the consequences magnified, along with other factors, into lost self esteem and adverse long term behavior. But the point is not the triviality or non-triviality of Santa's effects, it is whether the practice is right or wrong given our concern for children and our moral sense.
__________________________________________

This worry over Santa is as ridiculous, in my opinion, as this worry that ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside’ apologizes for date rape.

COMMENT: For most, it is not a worry, it is just a moral observation; a point to be made. It is only a worry to the destitute parent who cannot compete in the myth and has a child that might be overly sensitive to this issue. Do you think that she is just being ridiculous if she objects to the myth?
____________________________________________

In other news: Yemenese are still being starved to death, the Uyghur Muslims are still being ethnically cleansed and persecuted, and Flint still doesn’t have clean water.

COMMENT: You cannot sweep supposedly minor moral indiscretions under the rug simply because there are more significant problems in the world, with more severe consequences. After all, given your extreme examples, why should we be worrying here about the relatively minor consequences of Mormonism.

Amen. It isn't a problem for most and no one has to do Santa if they don't want to. There are much bigger problems and whether we like not or not,life isn't fair. Even kid can see that.

Santa, as the embodiment of kindness and generosity, is a lovely story.

It's the parents who try to set rules about how kids can interact and what they can tell each other that drive me batty.

"Don't let your kid tell my kid that Santa isn't real."

"Don't give your kid an elaborate gift and label it from Santa because my kid is only getting socks."

So. Many. Rules. I can't remember them all.

I support any parent making their own rules for their household. What I don't support is parents who want to make rules for the whole neighborhood or for the the entire local school district.

So who has made rules for the entire neighborhood? How does one even go about doing that?

Please list them and I might be able to figure out what your problem is.

Which is the whole problem with the idea that life isn't "fair". To use this very popular and highly negative colloquialism you must redefine the word fair. Fair means that the rules were followed. When one kid gets and Ipad and another gets used shoes what rule is being broken? How is that unfair?

If you don't see inequality as intrinsically unfair, I don't know how to explain it to you

Does 2≠3 mean that something isn't fair? Inequality is simply the state of not being the same. It cannot be intrinsically unfair because it is a different concept.

As said above. I don't agree. You seem to have a different definition of fairness

Nobody can force anyone on the issue of rules for their kids unless the rules are legally considered abuse or are otherwise illegal. However,implying that you have the one true way of dealing with Santa and pretty much calling everyone who disagrees as wrong and harming their children with lies is hardly helpful.Just statemyour views withoutnjudging everyone else. I can think of a couple of posters who come across as very judmental on this.issue.If you dont see it that way, that is fine.

There you go again.

Assuming you are referring primarily to Hie's statements, he did not say he had the one true way. He did not say anyone who disagrees with him was wrong and harming their children. He didn't say people shouldn't tell their children that Santa is real and brings gifts. He explicitly said that was their call, not his.

He did say that he only told his children that Santa was a myth and a Christmas tradition, so it is reasonable to infer he does not approve of telling children that Santa is real.

Hie did say the story is a lie. Not the most flattering label, but it fits the definition. His point was don't try to pretend it is not a lie. If you are going to defend it, defend it honestly. We all lie at various levels all the time. We always feel justified when we lie, and sometimes the case can be made that we are justified, and most people would agree with us.

If you think telling kids Santa is real does more good than harm, or does no harm, then make that case.

it is worth keeping in mind, however, that all the lies we were told in Mormonism were told to us "for our own good" - you know the litany - it's a great environment to raise children, it teaches good morals, yada yada yada.

When it comes to Mormonism, I think it is probably a near universal consensus here that we wish we had not been lied to, so lying with "good intentions" is not a particularly good test.

As for myself, I don't recall ever "believing in Santa". I don't recall ever being told the story was a myth either. As far back as my memory goes, I always knew my parents had produced the gifts, and that cries of "look what Santa brought" were just for show. I have no idea how or when I came to that conclusion, I suppose I had found wrapped presents before Christmas, and put 2 and 2 together.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2018 01:50PM by Brother Of Jerry.

You are welcome to see things differently but in my view he certainly at least implied that his way is right. There is another poster who does the same thing every single Christmas. IMO, both go beyond discussing the issue into the realm of telling others what is right.You can disagree if you like, but that is the way it comes across to me. There are posters who agree with me and those who agree with you. So be it. I dont expect those two to change, but I have a right to say how they come across to me

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are welcome to see things differently but in
> my view he certainly at least implied that his way
> is right.

I think you need to work on your perception.

My GF grew up poor as dirt. Her (single) mom perpetuated the Santa myth, as does society... she never understood why it was all the kids at school would get a visit from Santa but not her. She grew up hating Santa and to this day bears the scars from her childhood belief.
It can be a cruel narrative to foist on innocent and unsuspecting children. I, for one, think it causes more harm than good.

If I couldnt get my kids a decent Christmas, I wouldnt tell them Santa is real and I would explain the financial situation to them as best as I could. If the lack of money is a new problem, I would sit them down and explain that Santa isnt real and that Mommy and Daddy dont have money for Christmas this year.They are still going to be disappointed, but Christmas, with or without Santa, isnt going anywhere because you dont have money. Life isnt fair. With or without Santa, they arent getting any presents. Also, there are organizations which will help you. It sucks but that is the way things sometimes are.I wish it werent that way, but I do what I can by contributing to Sub for Santa or other groups which help.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2018 05:07PM by bona dea.

Christmas has become, and has been for as long as I’ve been alive, a holiday focused on the selfishness and greed of corporate America and its inreasingly neurotic consumers.
I present as exhibit A.... Black Friday.

It is, in its present form, most definitely harmful.
Harmful to kids especially. The narrative speaks for itself.

It may not be going anywhere, but neither is Mormonism (see how I linked them together?? ;-D ). That doesn’t mean it should be perpetuated.

That is a sweeping generalization although Christmas is often very commercial. Everyone isnt greedy.about . Everybody doesnt go into major debt, or camp out in.parking lots to get the greatest deal on Black Friday.
That wasnt even my point. Life isnt fair and with or without Christmas or Santa,some people,including kids, will get the short end of the stick. If you dont like Christmas, dont celebrate. It isnt mandatory.

My usual two cents --

"Not only is the Santa myth harmless, but it might actually be good for kids’ cognitive development. Fantastical stories foster a type of imaginative play that sparks creativity, social understanding and even—strange as it may sound—scientific reasoning...

"First: Let go of any guilt you have about duping your kids. Santa belongs in the “good lie” pile because parents invoke him for their kids’ sake; bad lies are the ones parents use to deflect blame or avoid responsibility—we can’t go to the playground today because it’s closed, when really, you’re just too lazy to get off the couch. By the time children learn the truth about Santa Claus (which is usually by age 8, according to Jacqueline Woolley, a psychologist at the University of Texas at Austin), they typically understand the difference between these types of lies, so they don’t resent their folks or suddenly think that across-the-board lying is OK. (For that matter, kids also do not reject religion, develop post-traumatic stress disorder or become drug addicts after learning that Santa is not real, as one fiercely anti-Santa website claims.)

"What Kris Kringle does do is feed the imagination. Kids picture him managing his elves at the North Pole, soaring through the sky or squeezing through chimneys. Sometimes children participate in the fantasy themselves, adopting the role of Rudolph or Mrs. Claus in games with their friends. These forms of play may cultivate a set of skills known as “theory of mind,” which helps kids predict and understand other people’s behavior. (Children with emotional disorders such as autism typically have theory of mind problems.)...

"...4-year-olds who frequently engage in fantasy play are also better able than other kids to distinguish appearances from reality..."

"...Taylor’s more recent work suggests that preschool and school-aged kids who lead rich fantasy lives—for instance those who have imaginary friends—have a better understanding of emotions, too."

"Fantasy play also forces kids to think through hypothetical or counterfactual scenarios, which bolsters their reasoning skills. What will happen if the elves don’t finish by Christmas Eve? What would Christmas be like if Santa didn’t exist? Research by Alison Gopnik, a psychologist at UC-Berkeley and author of The Philosophical Baby: What Children’s Minds Tell Us About Love, Truth and the Meaning of Life, suggests that this kind of thinking helps children develop models of how the world works and forces them to reason in a causal, rational fashion. This thinking can also help kids envision creative solutions to problems or come up with new ideas. After all, before someone can effect change or design something new, he or she has to be able to see the world differently."

"Obviously, kids can and do engage in pretend play even if they don’t believe in Santa—he’s by no means a necessity for healthy development. And sometimes, parents use Santa inappropriately, such as when they force their terrified kids to sit on Santa’s lap or when they use him primarily as a disciplinary threat—If you keep throwing pens at your sister, Santa will leave coal in your stocking. But none of the experts I spoke with worry that Old St. Nick, however mismanaged, will cause kids lasting psychological damage."

"It’s even possible to teach kids the truth about Santa in a positive way: just give them the tools to figure it out for themselves, Woolley says. If they ask you point blank, does Santa really exist? answer with questions of your own—What do you think? Are you starting to think he doesn’t? Why?"

https://slate.com/human-interest/2012/12/the-santa-lie-is-the-big-christmas-con-hurting-our-kids.html

It sounds like, from your posts above, that you would not lie if you are poor but would lie if you are rich.

Why wouldn't it be the best policy to be consistent?

If you say this when you do not have much money (copied from your post above):
"I wouldnt tell them Santa is real and I would explain the financial situation to them as best as I could. If the lack of money is a new problem, I would sit them down and explain that Santa isnt real and that Mommy and Daddy dont have money for Christmas this year."


Why wouldn't you say this if you do have money:

"I wouldn't tell them Santa is real and I would explain the financial situation to them as best as I could. If Mommy and Daddy have money, we buy presents that we can afford. I would sit them down and explain that Santa isn't real and that Mommy and Daddy are fortunate enough to have money for Christmas this year. There are other children who do not get as much. It's not because there is a Santa who is unfair."


IMO, all children deserve honesty from their parents, not just the ones who are less privileged.


I think presenting Santa as a pretend character that represents the symbol of giving is better than lying and teaching young children from their earliest recollection that their parents will go to great lengths to deceive them if they think it is cute. Only being honest when you can't afford the joke doesn't seem like a good alternative.

First of all, Dagny, I consider Santa a white lie and more in line with a fantasy.Second, In the unlikely event that my kids were getting nothing or very little for Christmas and if I couldnt find a charity or family to help, I would prefer that they know the truth than think that Santa was punishing them. I would also not expect that others limit what their kids get or what they tell them about Santa because I have a problem. Compassion and not rubbing it in would be appreciated though.Explaining the financial issues seems preferable to letting them think Santa hates them. However, very.few.kids get nothing. There was a.poor family in my neighborhood who got most of their Christmas from.Toys for Tots. They kids were as excited and happy as anyone else.

so I stopped when my kid was about four years old. I was also conflicted about leaving a present under the tree from her father who never sent anything. My justification for giving a gift from her dad was that he paid child support, so why not? I didn't want to use her as a proxy for my *extreme* dislike for her father.

Anyway, she wasn't bummed to find out that there's no Santa, and she figured out that I was the Tooth Fairy when I kept waking her up when I tried to slide a dollar under her pillow...and sometimes I forgot to do so. One morning she asked if I'd give her a dollar because the Tooth Fairy didn't come. Wink wink, nod nod, say no more.

One of the nicest things I've read in a long time, Beth.

Well you tried hie. You simply pointed out a consequence of a lie about Santa to make people aware. You pointed out a way to avoid hurt and make *all* kids happy at Christmas as much as possible.

But it had to turn into this "Don't tell me what to do" thing. I don't get it.

If you want to tell your kids the super expensive tech toys came from Santa you can still do it. Screw compassion for others.

If all the kids know Santa is must a bit of fun but not real, then the poor kids still know the rich kids are getting more, but at least they don't have to think Santa doesn't like them, or Jesus, or any of the other myths who supposedly care about everyone.

Of course I was one of the super poor kids, so what do I know?

Individual kids get to use their brains and decide what they think. They can ask their parents for advice if they want it.

Strangers have no say over them.

Nobody said strangers have a say over the kids Cheryl. It was a suggestion. Big difference. Thing is suggestions aren't mandatory.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well you tried hie. You simply pointed out a
> consequence of a lie about Santa to make people
> aware. You pointed out a way to avoid hurt and
> make *all* kids happy at Christmas as much as
> possible.
>
> But it had to turn into this "Don't tell me what
> to do" thing. I don't get it.

I don't get it, either.
But thanks for that.
Love ya, D&D. If I'd known you as a kid, I'd have saved my pennies to get you a present, but I wouldn't have told you it was from some imaginary mythical dude -- I'd have told you it was from me with love.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2018 09:18PM by Beth.

Each of us within our homes, families, and limited environments can strive for fairness.

Does that mean that everyone in society receives fairness in their daily lives, jobs, and interactions? Does every wife receive gifts that are equal to those of other women throughout the country? Do all children receive birthday and Christmas parties and gifts that are fair and equal? Does the local baker give everyone the exact same sized cookies and buns as every other customer. No to all of that.

Life isn't always fair, sometimes not even within each and every family or every classroom. There will always be discrepancies.

What to tell kiddies about this? If they're bothered, say, "I wish everything in life was always fair and even. Sometimes it doesn't work that way. Hopefully, in time things will work out for you. If you don't win this time, there will be other chances. Be patient and do your best. Even if things don't seem even, you'll still have many things to be glad about and I'll be here to support you as much as I can for as long as I can. Sometimes hugs help and here's a big one just for you."

We all (most of us) had that exact same experience growing up. Santa got us something that wasn't as cool as something he gave someone else. Or Santa gave us nothing at all.

We all turned out fine. Let's stop trying to nerf the edges of the world.

::snort:: If we all turned out fine, why are we at a Recovery from Mormonism site? Just saying. <tongue in cheek>

And which side is trying to "nerf the edges of the world", the "tell them Santa's real" crowd, or the "tell them Santa's a mythical tradition" crowd. That's not clear to me, and maybe we could start a whole meta-argument one level higher. :-P

Merry Christmas to All, and a Happy Diwali. (ETA: Diwali (Hindu Festival of Lights) was Nov 7. The SLC Library is celebrating it this week, a month and a bit late. Duh.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2018 12:02AM by Brother Of Jerry.

The "stop telling Santa age kids their ipads, iphones, and $200 gift came from santa claus. Not all families can afford that" crowd. Them.

Suggestions to raise awareness are not mandatory. Perhaps a dictionary could be of help to you Silly.

Nerf the world....
Make it a nerfier place
For you and for me
And the entire human race

Softer, foamier for tomorrow
And if you really try
You'll find there's no need to cry
In this place you'll feel
There's no hurt or sorrow

Wally, your word-craftiness is nothing short of amazing :)

...to get maximum giftage from their parental units.

Granted, this observation is not based on a scientifically constructed survey, but rather is based on my own experience as a child who was a sordid exploiter of my parents' belief that I believed in Santa.

I knew Santa was not real when I peeked into my parents' closet at age 5 and discovered toys with "from Santa" tags on them. This was a few days BEFORE Christmas and I, being much smarter than the average earthworm, deduced that my parents were actually just pretending to me that there was a Santa. (TBH, I had actually suspected as much even before then, so it did not come to me as a shock.)

I faced a conundrum and a moral dilemma:

(1) Do I tell my parents that I know that Santa ain't real (in the process confessing that I peeked in their closet) and, as a result, destroy all the fun that my parents obviously got out of pretending to me that there is a Santa?

(2) If I were to tell my parents that I know that Santa ain't real, what impact would it have on my future gift prospects? Would my parents feel less motivation to give me the things that I put down on my Christmas wish lists addressed to Santa?

I opted to keep pretending that I believed in Santa and I worked it as best I could until age 12. Eventually, I think my mom got worried about me. (What kind of kid still professes belief in Santa at age 12?) She sat me down one day and asked me whether I still believed in Santa. She asked in a way that made me realize that the gig was up.

I mumbled something to the effect that I had had my suspicions.

And that was that.

It was a learning experience--the type of learning experience that God wants us to have. That's why there is a plan of salvation and that's why we have been born with physical bodies...and it's also why I never got a decent gift (just socks and slacks and neckties...) after age 12. I mean, damn! I was hoping to keep working the Santa angle for at least another couple of years.

Thank you. I feel like I just got "nerfed," and I liked it.

I can't even remember if I believed it or not or for how long.

Some kids just never believe. The first time our son heard about Santa (not from us, I admit ;-), he was a very precocious 2 years old and said"No, that's just stories", which nobody could really deny. He of course then passed on this knowledge to his 2 sisters as soon as they could vaguely understand.

We had to tell them not talk about it with my sister's (younger) children - and my sister is of the "preserve the 'magic' for as long as humanly possible... i.e. when her elder child was 11.

Oh and for my son, don't worry, he slowed down and became normal ;-)

Tom in Paris

Santa?! Pfft!

We lived on the 7th floor of an apartment building sans chimney.

I believed in the Tooth Fairy longer than most. I figured my teeth were money in the bank. ;)

It is rare when someone believes something that is not in her financial interests!

Of course she is NOT very smart either.

Her concentrated intentional Oblivion allows her to ignore all the corruption of her Churchin' leaders so she can stay in her beloved "THE" (MORmON) church.

To this day, she will "argue" with people that Santa is real,
because, she says, Santa is the spirit of giving and the spirit of giving is real. I say that is MORmON "logic".

When I ask her IF I can get a temple recommend by paying tithing with "spirit of money" dollars, she dismisses me AS IF I am a person who just does NOT get it.

Honestly, when she finally dies, I probably won't miss her at all. I certainly do NOT miss my deceased MORmON enforcement agent male parent, dead for 10 years now.