I like the story that the church tells. I can be with my family forever. It is beautiful doctrine.

I am repulsed by troublesome history, specifically Joseph's young wives. But a TBM friend tells me it was a different time then, and that it wasn't bad as we see it now. Is this true?

What if I leave the church and it turns out to be true and I lose my salvation?

The history is a good indication that the probability is low.

Add to that the propensity for the church to act more like a for-profit business than a beneficent blessing towards people and this further reduces the probability.

Add to that the 0 percent probability The Book of Mormon history is actual history and you know where I'm going...

How is it going to work out? How are you going to live with your family members? Will you be living with them or with your husband's family? Where will your children be? With their spouses or with you? What world will you be living on as a Goddess with your God? How far away will be the worlds that your children are Gods of?

How many plural wives will you have that you share your husband with? That's a biggie.

I have no doubt in my mind that they are DEAD WRONG.

When I first left, I used to ask this question, too. After the indoctrination dies down, you quit asking those questions.

My parents died 10 years ago. I have no doubt I will be with them should there be an afterlife and I won't have to jump through a bunch of hoops to have them in my life. I never worry about it anymore, where I worried constantly about it when I was active mormon.

I was extremely devout. Most people, friends, family, etc., still have a hard time believing I don't believe and that I am OUT, resigned. I was the last one they believed would leave.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2018 05:08PM by cl2.

Yes, I have thought through all those scenarios.

Don't rely on a cult leading you to salvation.

You are responsible for saving yourself from a cult.

Research. Study to prove whether it's right or not. Then you'll know and won't be left wondering.

You can believe in God without believing in a cult. Believe in prayer. Keep your faith alive. Or not. Just not blind faith.

There are plenty of resources available to you. It's a journey of discovery and self-discovery.

https://youtu.be/nFTRwD85AQ4

But seriously, there’s a chance that I’ll win the grand prize in the next Power Ball drawing, but I’m not going to waste any time thinking about either possibly.

>> "I like the story that the church tells. I can be with my family forever. It is beautiful doctrine."

It's not beautiful for everyone. Even mormons.

Also, that isn't the only story they tell.

There is no chance "it's all true"....and a very good chance none of it is.

Cassidy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I like the story that the church tells. I can be
> with my family forever. It is beautiful doctrine.

I suggest that you examine this doctrine. What exactly does it mean and how is it accomplished? In the end I think you'll find that it is beautiful but nonsensical. The Plan of Salvation is on the surface wonderful but it's application is brutal and hateful.

>
> I am repulsed by troublesome history, specifically
> Joseph's young wives. But a TBM friend tells me it
> was a different time then, and that it wasn't bad
> as we see it now. Is this true?

I would just ask those of his time whether they found it as repulsive as you find it. He lost friends and confidants because of his philandering. He had mobs tar and feather him, wanting to castrate him because they were so horrified by his actions. The entire history of Joseph Smith from Emma on has people at every turn disgusted by his actions. The fact that some found it appealing is an indictment on them, not a mark in favor of Joseph.

>
> What if I leave the church and it turns out to be
> true and I lose my salvation?

Do you believe that god will damn you for being ethical?

Cassidy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I like the story that the church tells. I can be
> with my family forever. It is beautiful doctrine.

I've got an uncle I can't stand...so that fairy tale has little appeal for me.

> I am repulsed by troublesome history, specifically
> Joseph's young wives. But a TBM friend tells me it
> was a different time then, and that it wasn't bad
> as we see it now. Is this true?

It was a different time then. There was slavery, women couldn't vote, many fewer states...but guess what? Bigamy/polygamy/polyandry were all still illegal, Smith was still a con man, and using religious threats to get women to give in to sleeping with you (especially already married ones) was still disgusting and immoral.

> What if I leave the church and it turns out to be
> true and I lose my salvation?

It's not true. It's demonstrably false. The BoM story is demonstrably false -- no Native Americans came from Jews sailing here around 600BCE. The Book of Abraham is demonstrably fraudulent. There are literally hundreds of verifiable instances where church "prophets" have lied (not to mention other church leaders).

It's not true. The fear you feel was indoctrinated into you by the organization promoting the lies. They want you to be afraid of leaving because it might be true. It isn't. You can walk away knowing it's not true. From verifiable evidence, not from the blind, obedient "faith" the church demands of you.

No.

Somebody here once said:

"Mormonism proves Jesus can be bought for money."


Somebody else once said:

"Mormonism sells you what the universe gives freely."



I ran into an old friend who left the church before I did. She said the biggest thing she learned after she left was that God still loves her.

Good luck, Cassidy!

All of it being true? Not a chance. The church constantly changes it's mind, reverses doctrine and out right lies about it's teachings and beliefs.

As far as young brides being the norm. Research has proven that false as well. I personally went back through 400 years of family records and found one case of marriage at 14 years of age. This poor girl was orphaned during the first horrible famine and disease ridden year a plymoth colony. Whole families were shattered and new ones formed. Otherwise all marriages in my own research were age 17 in a few instances and the rest 18 or above.

Joseph himself couldn't keep his stories straight. He constantly revised revelation to correct errors or to support his ever changing views.

Errors in the book of mormon number in the hundreds.

So no, all of it can't be true.

" I like the story that the church tells. I can be
with my family forever. It is beautiful doctrine."

Only if you obey the mormon cult leaders and do what they say. Temple, Tithe, commands etc and all your family equally obeys.

JW's think they will be in paradise on earth with their families ( but only if they do what their cult leaders command and their family does what their cult leaders command).

If we are all to live eternally with our families, then what has it got to do with any cult leaders in the first place?

They just hijack people's natural hopes and dreams and turn it into a nightmare of hoop jumping obedience to their current BS thinking and fear of not doing enough works.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2018 05:44PM by Zeezromp.

Slightly less than the chance that a famous supermodel will call you from out of the blue asking for a date.

As time goes on, you’ll get used to the idea that it’s okay that the church isn’t true. It means you can’t go back to the way things were, which is scary. You can only go forward.

There is a chance the church is true. There's also a chance it'll rain donuts tomorrow. Just because there's a small chance doesn't mean it will happen.

BTW, my mom is devout and a doormat to "authorities," my dad is a jack-Mo and an undiagnosed narcissist. Families being together forever isn't as beautiful a doctrine as you think it is.

The church's truthfulness has nothing to do with what comes after this life, what ever is next, is next.

The church tried to package and sell the afterlife...but the afterlife, if there is one, exists with or without the church.

Who says we won't be with our families and loved ones forever ?

Only the church tries to use your family as leverage for control and money...you know, like gangsters do.

Believe in a happy life after this one if you want to, the church has nothing to do with it.

>>I like the story that the church tells. I can be with my family forever. It is beautiful doctrine.

>>What if I leave the church and it turns out to be true and I lose my salvation?

Mormons did not come up with the concept that you will be reunited with your family in the afterlife. This is a traditional Christian belief. All that is necessary in Christianity is to be baptized and accept Jesus as your savior.

The belief that we go to an afterlife predates even Christianity. The ancient pagan Romans believed it. The pagan Norse people believed it. The belief may well go back to the dawn of humanity. If there is an afterlife, you will be there and your loved ones will be there to greet you.

>>I am repulsed by troublesome history, specifically Joseph's young wives. But a TBM friend tells me it was a different time then, and that it wasn't bad as we see it now. Is this true?

The average age of first marriage for American women in the mid-1800s was roughly 23 years old. Even on the frontier it was only a couple of years younger than that. Marrying at age 14 or 15 was only very marginally more common back then than it is now. It was no more respectable to marry at age 14 or 15 than it is at present.

Here is some data that is sanctioned by the NIH:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3002115/table/T1/

And bear in mind -- Joseph's marriages were not legal marriages. This was Joe coming up with some mumbo-jumbo to convince these young women and their families that they were "married." Joseph also sent his male followers on missions and then "married" their wives. How moral is that behavior? I don't know about you, but I have higher standards than that for people to whom I choose to listen.

Did Joseph see God and Jesus in a vision? This requires you to take his word for it. And frankly, his word is not worth much. This is a man who was convicted of glass-looking, defrauded people of money in the Kirtland Bank scandal, ordered the destruction of a printing press (which was simply notifying the community of his polygamous "marriages,") propositioned young girls, other men's wives, and his own servants and wards who were dependent on him, and was caught in not correctly translating the Book of Abraham. This is someone whose word you would trust? Really?

I would trust my own family members long before I would trust the word of such a liar and scoundrel.

I believe in life after life. I just hope to God we won't be reborn having to decide religion.

God is without borders IMO. That means to me there is no "religion" in heaven. If it exists it is open to anyone who merits eternal life. Cults will not be a part of who gains entrance to there, but your heart and how you lived.

If someone knowingly lives a lie, how will they reconcile that with their Creator? I've heard some Mormons say if it isn't true then it will be sorted out in the afterlife. Yeah, sure it will. But why wait until then, if you are a capable person isn't that what this life is for?

There was a time when I could have accepted the whole concept.Then a friend handed me a copy of Michael Tellinger's book The "Slave Species of God". From there I migrated to Sitchen's translation of the "Book of Enki" and the whole mountain came tumbling down.
Described in this translation is the genetic manulation and creation of homo sapien.As part of this sequence long life was given, reserection was genetically witheld.
The translation has ben challenged but I believe that, for the most part, it is accurate. However each of you must read for yourself and determine it's authenticity.
What I have stated above is gross simplification and each of you must study the book in order to logically reach your own conclusion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2018 06:49PM by thedesertrat1.

What if Harry Potter were true? If so I want to become a wizard
But if I have to live stupid rules and fork over my money to wierd dudes in suits to find out, then I'd rather keep my money and live life without magical thinking

Ask yourself, who it was that decided a family unit cant exist in heaven, unless they are Mormons?
That idea came from JS.
He poisoned the well of other church's so that he could sell his idea of heaven to potential members.
Most Christians already believe they will be with their loved ones when they die. No one needs Mormonism.

hatmagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ask yourself, who it was that decided a family
> unit cant exist in heaven, unless they are
> Mormons?
> That idea came from JS.
> He poisoned the well of other church's so that he
> could sell his idea of heaven to potential
> members.
> Most Christians already believe they will be with
> their loved ones when they die. No one needs
> Mormonism.

Exactly.
People have believed this long before Smith came along with the fraud known as the BoM

And the BoA
And.....(the list goes on)

You don't have to be Mormon to believe that relationships, family and friends, go on after death.

Only Mormons dont realize that they dont have the corner market on that belief

Nope. Not a chance in hell.

A waste of time, energy, and peace of mind.

Possible yes, probable no. It would require God to be a trickster type deity who crafted the universe and the earth to decieve us.

This sets us up for eternal reward or punishment based on which set of unsupported suppositions we supported in life.

If that's God, I want no part of him.

ChurchCo, supposedly a conduit between 'HF' & the rank-and-file (members, all others) is doing a terrible job Except in the $ category...

Read & Compare "Profiles of a Prophet" to Nelson, No Way, No How.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/hugh-b-brown_profile-of-a-prophet/

I don't care if it is or not.

No. Not a chance. The Book of Mormon is not true. Everything else collapses around that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2018 08:47PM by mikemitchell.

The Mormon church want's to scare you by making you believe that the only way you'll see your loved ones again is by forking over 10% of your income so you can live in a an exclusive gated community (celestial kingdom) in a mansion with your family - the nuclear family formed on earth. That's what it's all about, you know; it's not about loving everyone, just your little family.

The celestial kingdom will be like Beverley Hills, full of grand mansions which house individual families. That's why God sacrificed his only begotten Son, why Christ suffered, and why he preached of love for all: so in the end the most faithful could be divided up into individual families in exclusive neighborhoods, where they won't have to mingle with the less faithful who will have to go to a lesser kingdom where - gasp - they will all live together and not as individual families in fancy mansions in gated communities.

If that's what the Mormon church believes, they might want to re-read Christ's teachings. Christ preached about loving EVERYONE, which is the ultimate goal of Christianity. It's not about individual families scattered all over the place in exclusive neighborhoods, it's about EVERYONE being connected together in ONE big happy family, enveloped in love for ALL. Mormons can't really grasp that concept. Love for all isn't profitable. They won't be able to sell you prime, exclusive real-estate in heaven for 10% of your paycheck.

I have studied enough evidence to know 100% that they are not what they claim to be. I see no possibility whatsoever that it could be true. Now it's such an obvious fraud to me that I'm shocked that I ever fell for it at all.

Once the evidence showed me that it was not true, I lost all fear of leaving.

"I like the story that the church tells."

I think you mean that you like the story that the church SELLS. As others have pointed out, other churches believe in forever families. But only the mormon church charges you 10% to purchase your forever family.

If the church is "true," then god is an anatomically correct white guy sitting on a throne near Kolob. If the church is "true," you will be sharing your anatomically correct husband with many other wives, like it or not. Is that the "salvation" you hope for?

Your kids won't be living on your planet even if the church is "true." If you think otherwise, please explain why you won't be living on your parents' or in-laws' planet instead; it makes just as much sense, since your planet won't be any more special than theirs.

Sure it might be true. But the chance is so low that I will not give my life to it. Scientology might be true, but the chance is so low that I will not give my life to that either.

That is what the image of the flying spaghetti monster means. You can't prove that there isn't a flying spaghetti monster, and there might be a flying spaghetti monster. That also might be true.

I had an argument that jackalopes exist, because I saw a picture. My friend finally said, “How do they get down their rabbit holes with those antlers?”. Then I got it.

The BoM can’t be true because it’s impossible. Magical God impossible, even. You should doubt truth claims that are absolutely impossible.

Does this make Mormonism bad? Well, it’s bad for you in the long run. But then life is pretty much bad for you. Even if you eat right and exercise, it always ends in death.

Well, there's this. If you leave the church, your relatives or complete strangers will posthumously baptize you, endow you and seal you all up. So, if it is all true, waa laa, easy peasy, you're back on track.

Remember, you can't have your forever family UNLESS you learn the secret/sacred handshakes and passwords that they give you in the temple.

That's right. You can't see your forever family in the Celestial Kingdom if you don't give the gatekeeper the right handshakes and passwords.

It's like a club that little kids would make and, for fun, they come up with secret handshakes and passwords that they use to get into the little club shack that they made out of cardboard boxes.

Is there a chance that it's all true?

That's a question every member of every religion and cult has asked themselves at one point or another. If they can all be true, then it doesn't really matter.

The way I see it is that Joseph Smith first created the problem of "eternal separation" so that he could sell the cure of "eternal sealing ordinances."

It's hard to imagine how an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God, creator of all things and all-around master of everything in the universe, would come up with something as silly as the Mormon temple rituals and ordinances.

If it turns out that it is true, I expect the afterlife will also be nonstop, unpredictable silliness, so it probably doesn't really matter whether or not you believe it--even if it is true.

No, not a chance it's all true.

What if Islam is true and you lose your salvation because you neglected to do a pilgrimage to Mecca?

What if Hinduism is true, and you lose your salvation, because you never bathed in the Ganges?

What if Greek Orthodoxy is true, and you lose your salvation because you followed an apostate Catholic calendar?

You see where this is going, right? You're driving yourself crazy over something that can't possibly be true. Relax.

In seminary I was taught that the Book of Mormon is the Keystone. The teacher would pull the keystone out of a model structure. If it fails, she said, the whole church falls. That struture fell completely down.

DNA, Archaeology, and Lingusitics have all provided the undeniable evidence that the Book of Moromon can't be true. The Church is falling. Now and then, they provide a brace or two to hold it up for a while longer.

You have to understand belief and effect it has all humans, u would b saying the same thing if u were JW, u dont just walk away from a belief system and forget it, belief is very strong even if its work, eg blow urself up with a bomb and kill all those around u. once u get away for a while u wonder how u ever beliefed in it.

Cassidy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can be with my family forever. It is beautiful doctrine.


Do other Christian religions teach that you CAN'T be with your family forever?

Conventional Christianity teaches that family members who don't accept Jesus don't go to heaven. Mormonism teaches that family members who don't get all the ordinances and live worthily don't get to be in the same part of heaven as righteous family members. With either one you have a chance of being together and a chance of being separated. It's just that Mormonism has more hoops to jump through and therefore a greater chance of being separated.

Well put OE~

"You're driving yourself crazy over something that can't possibly be true. Relax."

hahaha

I dunno, Cassidy. Sounds like you need to go back until the abuse convinces you of the untruthfulness thereof.

Here's a (possibly) useful analogy:
It sure was wonderful once upon a time when you believed she loved you true but the behavior -- welll ---

So what are you going to do?

You LIKE the story that the church tells: "I can be with my family forever" [IF, IF, IF...].

I could tell you that. You pay me to listen to me, and listen to EVERYTHING I say, and keep paying me when I say pay (and do whatever "calling" or service or ministering I say), or when a weak goes by, whichever is sooner, and if you MAKE more, I make more. You attend where I say you'll attend and you'll "friend" whoever I say you'll offend a 'friend', and pretend [you love mormonism].

> What if I leave the church [or it leaves you] and it turns out to be [false] true and I lose [gain] my salvation?

"What if you don't do ANYTHING... And NOTHING happens?"
You will have "asked for it", and gotten it: nothing.

M@t

Just keeping chasing that rainbow, you’ll get to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. And then the leprechaun guarding it will kick your ass, unless you know the secret handshakes. That’s why the temple apron is green, to symbolize four leaf clovers.

Is there a chance that if I follow it, long enough, and diligently enough, it'll follow me? Unfortunately, in this case, yes, and too closely, usually.

I'll find that gold, like Joseph Smith did. Wait...

Cassidy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I like the story that the church tells. I can be
> with my family forever. It is beautiful doctrine.


actually it is very UGLY !! The MORmON church peddles ( completely unproven!!!!) stuff that is supposed to allow families to be together when as they other wise would NOT be according to the MORmON religion .....What kind of a god would block families from being together over such crass garbage ? ONLY a god who is a real @$$ hole .....so much like MORmON ASSpostHOLES that I do NOT want to be around in any life !!!

as genuinely inspected, MORmONISM is really a mockery of God, decency and Christianity

IF MORmONISM is true then it is a very ugly tragedy far more than anything of beauty!!!

If you want thoughts from "both sides" don't just inquire here, where you will get mostly strong unbelievers.

A suggestion is to keep studying and keep thinking about the Church, and maybe you will answer your questions eventually. You may need time, and you don't necessarily need to stop going to church, but just keep thinking about things.

There is a good chance you will become a hard core doubter, so be prepared for that possibility.

This is Recovery from Mormonism. Not Mormon Apologetics.

If a person is really honest they will question their religion, faith, and deity.

If that leads us out of Mormonism, it isn't for a lack of trying.

It's because we were able to distinguish between fallacy and what is credible. Honesty leads people out of a cult, not into one.

No, we’re strong believers. It’s just that we believe in physical evidence, modern science, and mathematics. If the math doesn’t work, there’s a problem.

If you can convince me to give up on all that stuff, maybe I can go back to believing in Mormon magic and drunk history.

yah ummm see wally prince's absolutely wonderful/ splendid comment in the following thread:

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2183565,2183567#msg-2183567

This is the correct answer. Anybody aces the exam. There is NO chance that the LDS church is true.

HH =)

We'll let's think about the doctrinal foundation of "families can be together forever" as promulgated by Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Restored Church of Christ formerly known as Mormon.

This whole idea spawns from Doctrine and Covenants section 132. If you accept this idea as the LDS Church teaches it, then you also have to accept the notion that Joseph Smith was commanded to take multiple wives and that if Emma Smith did not accept this doctrine she would be destroyed! To believe in the sealing power of LDS, Inc., belief in this ugly piece of scripture is also required.

Underlying this doctrine of course is a belief that Joseph Smith received revelations from God and he was honest in relaying the message. Both of those assumptions shouldn't be made, because Smith is a demonstrable liar as demonstrated by his contradictory first vision accounts, claim to have translated the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham, the lies he told about polygamy, and his accounting of the nature of his affiliation with the Methodists before his alleged vision.

Families can be together is not for everyone for Mormons. Getting there is a really narrow path. According to recent (I don't keep up on all the latest drooling from General Conference) LDS teaching it is contingent on a lot of things: receiving the proper ordinances of baptism, confirmation, priesthood ordination (for men only), initiatory (ew!), endowment, and sealing. Before and after that time these blessings are contingent on a member's worthiness to receive them.

This is how the LDS Church keeps people on the hook. This is how the leadership keeps members feeling guilty, anxious, and often depressed. Do I measure up? Am I good enough? Have I done all that I can? So this eternal families doctrine is not as reassuring as it would seem.

Many people believe that they can be with their families and friends in an afterlife. There's really no way of ascertaining whether such a thing is a reality or a notion that sustains our faith in our own future and that of our children. But Mormons believe they have an exclusive path to ensure these results, but what often results is a cycle of manipulation so people can get money, free labor, and the social status and political power afforded them by their leadership of this organization.

Cassidy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
But a TBM friend tells me it was a different time then, and that it wasn't bad as we see it now. Is this true?

Your TBM friend is wrong. Plural marriage was not normal. Mature men (30+ years old) marrying teenagers was not normal. Marrying other men's wives was not normal.

If the 15 at the top had a “sure knowledge” of the truth of their celestial reward, why are they all not clammering to get there? Instead, they tenaciously hang on to earthly life, into illness and often painful old age, in spite of their second anointing. You would think that they would all be rushing to their reward of creating worlds and enjoyment of multiple wives. Just sayin -

Sure there is. It is a little known fact that Sitting Bull, Geronimo, Chief Joseph and so many other American Indians actually spoke hebrew, ate Bagels and were Diamond Merchants.

Cliff, stop eating all the pretzels.

the church claims to be the same organization that existed in the primitive church. Totally false. Jesus was a Jew. Christians of his day were simply jews. We kniw alot about how christianity evolved. There is no way that mormonusm is true.