Sometimes, I'm very upset with myself for not reading the signs. Damn, I wish that I had been more observant instead of asleep at the switch. I just stumbled upon a talk that would have gotten me thinking and leaving a lot sooner. It was such a condescending talk that it really flew under the radar for 90% of the members. You see it was a BYU speech given by asshat Oaks in June 1992. Our Strengths Can Be Our Downfall
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/dallin-h-oaks_strengths-can-become-downfall/

Unfortunately, I remember exactly where I was in 1992. I was serving a mission and trying to be that petty perfect obedient missionary. I found myself at odds with the MP that created edicts: Eat Cracked Wheat, Get up an extra 30 min earlier to exercise, Do this and the Lord will bless you...blah blah blah. I had a companion that came out in tears because the MP had convinced him that he was so unworthy for convert baptisms. I'm lucky that the guy didn't commit suicide.

What a talk that counter-teaches a lot of established doctrine! At that very moment, I was doing everything to get non-members to join the church so Oaks says this: "We are commanded to love our neighbors, not to manipulate them, even for righteous purposes." Well that's exactly what I was doing and every other missionary. The missionary guide handbook is all about MANIPULATION. God, we practiced role playing for hours with the single goal of manipulating people's feelings and messing with their minds.

Oh here's a gem: "Persons who try to shift all decision making to the Lord and plead for revelation in every choice will soon find circumstances where they pray for guidance and don’t receive it." I don't know why we wasted so much time in missionary companionship prayer. Here we had our MP promising that if we were obedient and thoughtful in prayer, then we would be delivered to people waiting to hear the gospel. Stupid me for thinking that God would give me inspiration to do his will.

As a missionary, a good chunk of the morning was dedicated to the studying of the gospel. We did both individual and companionship studies. Two years, the time added up and the thought was that it would make missionaries a bit smarter. Of course Oaks said this: "Another strength Satan can exploit to seek our downfall is a strong desire to understand everything about every principle of the gospel." When I used to play hooky as a youth during SS, the leaders would tell me that I was stupid for having no desire to learn the gospel.

Oaks gives his clear conscience why he or anybody doesn't have to help the poor or needy. Oaks said "We are commanded to give to the poor. Could the fulfillment of that fundamental Christian obligation be carried to excess? I believe it can, and I believe I have seen examples of this." See you can donate a buck to charity and have clear conscience.

Oaks goes on to tell students not to be learned or educated. He rails against women choosing education over marriage and family. He warns of patriotism and following the teachings of dead prophets, yet his talk is peppered with quotes from Kimball, Lee and MRomney.

Sure wish this would have gone mainstream and not limited to BYU students. I would like to think that I would have left sooner.

That talk wouldn't have helped me -- I was out in 1981 :)

Don't beat yourself up too much, goop. You got out when you were ready to, when a combination of knowledge and emotion and external events and a bunch of other things converged to a singularity for you. I'd guess that while some of that could have happened earlier for you, some of it couldn't have. When it did, you acted -- and that's what matters.

To put it simply, I was too stupid (and I don't use that term lightly) to leave before my mission. Like you, I went and tried to be the perfect missionary. But part of my own singularity was the mission experience itself -- which in many ways forced me to confront the "big" issue, whether it was all true or not. Without the mission pressure to resolve that for myself, I might have floated along for years more as a mostly-active but somewhat-doubting run-of-the-mill member.

Your journey out is your own. It happened. I don't think you should worry too much about what could have happened...celebrate what did!

Goop,

My guess is you were so indoctrinated, it took a while to clear your mind. I so *wanted* to find a 'church home' as they say in the South, to *belong* and have a *community* that it took a year for me to see, this is not my place to be.

Agree with HietoKolob, you got out when things were right for you to...

I tried at 12 but couldn't get a way with it until my fourteenth year.
I could have left, PERMANENTLY, before teenagerness, if there was an internet then, or any adults were wise, and considerate, enough.

I could have left at eight (8) if I'd known the truth...
But they didn't tell me that!

M@t

But I wasn't ready to leave. I had hope that God would find a way to let me know that it was all true (even though it was looking increasingly phony to me at the time).

I hadn't yet served a mission or gone through the temple (except for dead-dunking service).

All the adults around me were always hyping up those things, so I just assumed that I had not yet gone through the rites of passage that would lead to a firm testimony and enlightened understanding.

So I did the mission and worked hard at it, so that it could never be said that I didn't give it my all. I also did the temple stuff....and then I was ready to leave. BOY WAS I EVER READY TO LEAVE!

The mission experience and the temple experience confirmed all of the worst fears and suspicions that I had been dealing with in high school. There was no THERE there. Mormonism was the Emperor's New Clothes 2.0

Both in the temple and on my mission, I was hoping that it would be proven to be true. I wanted it to be true, so it was never a case of me wanting to leave so that I could sin or because it would be more convenient.

But that talk is a prime example of one of the things that drove me crazy on my mission.

The more I tried to learn the "plain and simple truths," the more I realized that nothing in the Mormon belief system was plain and simple. The leaders often contradicted each other. The scriptures often contradicted each other. Everything was both case-by-case and dependent on context, while also claimed as being based on firm, "iron rod" principles that would "safely guide you" through everything and anything. Be unyielding. Don't be unyielding. Find balance. Commit 100% and don't hold back. Sacrifice everything. Be a responsible steward and don't squander resources. Have common sense. Have faith and act on faith. Don't rely on conventional wisdom. God is all-loving and has a sense of humor. God is easily offended.

By the end of my mission, I realized that the only thing that was consistent in the teachings of the church was that I was to blame if anything didn't work out. I misunderstood the teachings. I was unworthy to receive necessary inspiration. I doubted too much...The Church was never wrong. The leaders were never wrong--even when they flat-out contradicted each other.

I eventually did find the plain and simple truth: Joseph Smith was a fraud and all of the past and current leaders have been fakes and phonies. Now it all makes perfect sense.

Wally Prince Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> All the adults around me were always hyping up
> those things,

and that is exactly the kind of phoniness, trickery and complicity that my parents and their MORmON cohorts and contemporaries were culpable in, and for which they can and should be condemned, (that they should have their MORmON asses kicked for, and why I have ZERO respect for them today) and, come to think of it, most thankfully that I NEVER participated in !!!!!!!! because my reaction to the (horrible) MORmON temple endowment was always "what the Hell ????" to myself, NOT ever "that was awesome" to other people.


> so I just assumed that I had not yet
> gone through the rites of passage that would lead
> to a firm testimony and enlightened
> understanding.

Due to the MORmON "hyping" that you mention, I had the definite impression that something transcendent was going to happen, something like a divine manifestation. Well, upon having it, the experience was definitely transformative, and just as much it definitely was NOT positive or settling !!!!!


> So I did the mission and worked hard at it, so
> that it could never be said that I didn't give it
> my all. I also did the temple stuff....and then I
> was ready to leave. BOY WAS I EVER READY TO
> LEAVE!
>
> The mission experience and the temple experience
> confirmed all of the worst fears and suspicions
> that I had been dealing with in high school.
> There was no THERE there. Mormonism was the
> Emperor's New Clothes 2.0
>
> Both in the temple and on my mission, I was hoping
> that it would be proven to be true. I wanted it
> to be true, so it was never a case of me wanting
> to leave so that I could sin or because it would
> be more convenient.

you could have just sinned liked crazy anyway, owned up to some small part of it as required, then pretended to be heartbroken sorry, been taken under the wing of LD$ inc leadership for care and guidance in the process of your (supposed) repentence and reformation .....as you have been just as damn phony as they are, got yourself adopted as a designate salvage/ redemption/ charity case, been made Assistant to the President, been given a full ride scholarship to BYU for being such a great (BS ARTIST) leader and example as AP. ....for some reason the MORmON church just LOVES phonies !!!!

Hey! That tactic worked for my friend, who I came to realize was by far more like phony pathological narcissist Joseph Smith than any other person that I was acquainted with.

For some reason the MORmON establishment just loved the (phony) way that he operated, as he lied to everyone like crazy, while they had nothing but utter contempt for the straight shooters that actually kept all of their rules (like dumb ass MORmON me).

Not me, I was impervious to all information. Polygamy, Masonic rip off, whatever. Joseph did it by magic or something.

It was only after I decided I didn’t need anything the church offered that I entertained questioning. Mormons don’t question because what’s the point? The brethren have a direct line to God. Of course if that were the case, why are they so protective of their gigantic mountain of BS?

If Mormonism is a test, you passed.

I'd have left sooner if I had trusted my intuition, which I didn't.