In socializing with the 30+ single men in my ward (in group settings) I noticed they were hostile toward the young single ladies. Making disparaging comments and a lack of courtesy.

I always wondered if they disliked women because they experienced constant pressure to get married (since they were past the usual marrying age), or disliked them because the church teaches that women are the enemy, out to seduce them and cause their eternal damnation if they have s*x without marriage. Or maybe they turned negative (30 years without ever having a girlfriend would do it, I think).

Have others seen this hostility in older single men in TSCC?

I've seen us women do the same thing, heck even I've done a garment check.

We are brought up in YW to keep our oath, and to only marry worthy men. If you haven't served a mission, then you are right out.

On top of that, you need to be an outstanding member of the ward with great potential to rank up in the church... nothing else was worthy of our time.

We were taught this from 12 years old.

If you fell outside of this criteria... well, don't even talk to me.

Wow harsh. So the men are judging the women and the women judge the men? No wonder there seemed to be hostility!

Every group must have incels (involuntary celibates). I think the term is normally used to describe angry men, but it works for women too. With TSCC, these men have been told that God would be awarding them a hot wife based on their maleness and their priesthood. If women reject them, it can't be God's fault, it can't be their fault, it must be the fault of evil women. Especially if they went on a mission, they think they are owed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2019 08:29PM by Dorothy.

I've stumbled across a few MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) sites.
I hadn't heard the term "incels," but it all fits together. They're men who felt they should have been entitled to women, and it never quite worked out that way, so now they're quite angry.

scmd1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

"They're men who felt they should have been entitled to women, and it never quite worked out that way, so now they're quite angry."
=====================

You're refereeing to "Incels" (involuntary celibate) not MGTOW.

Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW) are altogether a different phenomenon.
These have found there are better things to do with their time and resources, and tend generally to be relatively indifferent towards the endeavor of marriage and family (these are men otherwise engaged - think Nikolai Tesla, Sir Isaac Newton, Beethoven, the Wright Brothers). A modern approximation of MGTOW is the herbivore of Japan: they've simply walked off the farm of their own accord.

But they are not celibate necessarily, and many are quite successful in conventional terms - professionally, financially and on the dating scene.

They do tend to draw a lot of ire, which is curious.

Dr. No,

A friend's son is like that, very handsome, but is just into his own thing, computers, his own career, and doesn't feel any desire for any relationship, he is not gay, just indifferent. He's 40+.

His mom can't understand him but he seems very happy!

Dorothy,

I was an active single Mormon male for 10 years (ages 18 to 28). Never, never "one" time, did I hear any Mormon male, say they were "owed a woman" because of "maleness" or "priesthood". I DID hear, many times, married Mormon men tell us single Mormon men that women "want a strong Priesthood holder" and that "being a faithful Priesthood holder" was "key" in attracting "a beautiful women to take to the Temple". Heard that countless times.

I DID hear some single Mormon men say, "Mormon women are gold-diggers" and "All beautiful Mormon women want a rich man or nothing". I did hear that. And I SAW that happen.

The "normal" women married by the time they were 23. However, if an active Mormon woman was not married by the time she was 23, it was due to two things only:

1) She was ___very___ unattractive to males.

2) She was a "expectant" of marrying a wealthy male, but not beautiful enough to attract a wealth male.

Pretty simple.


Dorothy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every group must have incels (involuntary
> celibates). I think the term is normally used to
> describe angry men, but it works for women too.
> With TSCC, these men have been told that God would
> be awarding them a hot wife based on their
> maleness and their priesthood. If women reject
> them, it can't be God's fault, it can't be their
> fault, it must be the fault of evil women.
> Especially if they went on a mission, they think
> they are owed.

Ahhh, or they just don't want to be married but must belong to the proper mating groups.
My favorite saying that I have heard is marriage subtracts 6 years from a woman and adds 6 years to a man's life. When I find someone worththe 6 years I'll marry him.
The pressure is all on the men, not the single women who are rejected by the mormon male populace as not being thin enough, not wearing makeup, not being sexy enough, just not being enough or being too much. Too independent. Too intelligent. Etc,etc.
So the not enough and too much not getting the celestial marriage goes on to make the just right life.

Hi Reality,

Thank you for your heartfelt viewpoints, which were very interesting, especially since I was only in the church a short time.

The particular interaction I witnessed at a group dinner, was indeed somewhat like you describe: an attractive 20-year-old lady was not interested in the 32 year old Single Male and I saw his hostility in remarks to her and about her in front of us.

Thus, my OP question about--is there a lot of hostility in LDS men?

But, he was also hostile towards me--I was the host of the dinner, and that also made me wonder--he made denigrating comments about my workplace after someone mentioned it, and also about my age (older than him).

Your comments reflect very interesting observations, thank you.

From your account, what you heard was Mormon men giving their stories of what Mormon women want and what Mormon women said. This isn't quite the same as having directly heard the Mormon women say these things. Maybe they were said, or maybe they weren't. From your account, you never heard it directly from the primary source, Even if you saw couples who chose to marry, you cannot know with much certainty what another couple saw in each other or what motivated them to marry.


Reality Wrote:
I DID
> hear, many times, married Mormon men tell us
> single Mormon men that women "want a strong
> Priesthood holder" and that "being a faithful
> Priesthood holder" was "key" in attracting "a
> beautiful women to take to the Temple". Heard that
> countless times.
>
> I DID hear some single Mormon men say, "Mormon
> women are gold-diggers" and "All beautiful Mormon
> women want a rich man or nothing". I did hear
> that. And I SAW that happen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2019 06:06PM by scmd1.

According to other threads, single women significantly outnumber men in current single wards, and the older the demographic, the greater the disparity. So it should be easy pickings for 30+ men. Thus, I suspect there is an array of other explanations, if mel's observation is 1) accurate and 2) widespread.

Dorothy, very interesting. Yes I did notice a lot of sensitivity to perceived or imagined slights on the part of men which fits with what you said about everything being the woman’s fault.

Had not heard the term but it fits..but why the men are celibate when there are so many single women in most wards was always a mystery to me.

Sure, it's "easy picking." But maybe that's part of the exasperation of some young men that might be taken as them being angry. What ARE the pickings? Many cute girls, but the under 25 crowd are, for the most part, quite immature. Even if they have their degree or are RMs, they still mostly have as their top priority, getting married. As soon as possible. I know that I and every other mormon girl I was raised with fit in that category before we were 25.

Although for most mormon girls nearing or over 30, the pickings soon turn into divorced men, I have two nephews in the past decade who didn't marry until 30 or over. They are both very good looking, had advanced degrees and yes, everyone was wondering when or if they'd marry and whether they were being too picky. But why can't they be picky? What if they actually wanted more mature, independent, interesting girls? Both of them eventually found exactly that and they were gorgeous to boot and they are now starting families and seem very happy.

So I'm skeptical of the term "angry" when describing these older, single mormon men. They've had to endure so many stupid questions about their marriage intentions, when in the real world, no one would even start that crap until they were over 30, that they might just deserve a little consideration.

Very interesting, thank you for the insights!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2019 10:30AM by mel.

Those of us who go way back here will remember some of the tales of Deenie, the Dreaded Single Adult. I remember one in particular where she invited some of the ward singles over to her place around Christmas, and one of the young men decided to demonstrate how remarkably fragile Christmas ornaments are by removing a shoe and using it to bat at ornaments on the tree.

Yes, definitely weird enough that you have to ask if this person was mentally ill. Apparently not ill enough that he couldn't hold a job and function in society, but some Mormon men (and to be fair, a few women too) lack the social skills you would expect from a sewer rat. And yes, the guy batting the ornaments had serious hostility issues.

I remember a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms report back in the 1990s that that listed Utah as having more pipe bomb incidents per capita than any other state in the country. The report said that was partly because there is a lot of mining in Utah, so explosives are more prevalent in the state than is the case in many other parts of the country, but all the states surrounding Utah also have a lot of mining, and they didn't have the same level of pipe bomb incidents.

So, not only is there a lot of youth suicide in Utah, there is a lot of latent hostility. Oh, and to caffeind, the fact that women outnumber men in singles wards is beside the point. The men are not hostile because of the women. They are hostile because they are trapped in Mormonism and don't know how to get out without causing a s***storm in their families. The women are not the cause of the hostility, they are simply the most convenient target for it in Mormon culture.

Lots of free floating hostility in Mormon culture. IMHO, that's why there is so much passive-aggressive driving behavior on I-15. Ever have someone do their best to not let you merge, or change lanes, for no other reason than to be a jerk? Free-floating hostility. It's the mother's milk of Utah.

Brother of Jerry,

Thanks, your comments were fascinating!

Wow, talk about not being 'house-broken' that is a very illustrative story about the ornaments! As a guest in someone's home! To do that!

What you say is very insightful:

"They are hostile because they are trapped in Mormonism and don't know how to get out... The women are not the cause of the hostility, they are simply the most convenient target for it in Mormon culture."

It was very strange and I think the church really damages these guys that they can't be around women without running them down.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2019 03:48PM by mel.

I think it is a "stretch" to say that a Mormon male who is using his shoe to "slap Christmas ornaments" on a tree not his own, in a house not his own, is "hostility towards women". I knew a very immature 36 year old divorced Mormon male, who used to have "tantrums" like a small boy. He got more sex than Ron Jeremy, 90% from active single Mormon women and girls. So, he was definitely NOT an "Incel" (involuntary celibate). He simply was a boy in a man's body. He was 36 years old.

The Mormon male in question could have:

*bi-polar disorder
*arrested development
*schizophrenia
*Autism

Saying that his slapping ornaments was due to "hostility to women" because a woman owned the house, is a "stretch" at best. Best way to handle it is to whisper in his hear "Please stop doing that". If he reacts badly, ask him to leave. I had a missionary companion who used to like to shoot little birds with his BB-gun on "P"-day. HE loved it. The women LOVED him in return. He was a boy in a young man's body. They exist.


mel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brother of Jerry,
>
> Thanks, your comments were fascinating!
>
> Wow, talk about not being 'house-broken' that is a
> very illustrative story about the ornaments! As a
> guest in someone's home! To do that!
>
> What you say is very insightful:
>
> "They are hostile because they are trapped in
> Mormonism and don't know how to get out... The
> women are not the cause of the hostility, they are
> simply the most convenient target for it in Mormon
> culture."
>
> It was very strange and I think the church really
> damages these guys that they can't be around women
> without running them down.

Reality Wrote:

Saying that his slapping ornaments was due to
> "hostility to women" because a woman owned the
> house, is a "stretch" at best. Best way to handle
> it is to whisper in his hear "Please stop doing
> that". If he reacts badly, ask him to leave. I
> had a missionary companion who used to like to
> shoot little birds with his BB-gun on "P"-day. HE
> loved it. The women LOVED him in return. He was a
> boy in a young man's body. They exist.

He would seem to be a boy in a man's body. At the same time, if we set up a hypothetical [though unlikely] scenario of the same gathering taking place in the living room of a Mormon male, would the man with arrested development have been as likely to take his shoe off and start smacking ornaments on a Christmas tree owned by his priesthood-holding acquaintance? While I cannot be certain of how it all might have gone down in this hypothetical situation, my guess is that the ornament bashing wouldn't have happened.

As the scenario is purely hypothetical, I cannot be certain it would have wound up as I would imagine. Still, whether from fear of facing physical repercussions or due to lack of respect for Deenie and females in general, I seriously doubt the guy would have treated the belongings of another male in the same manner unless the other male was what he perceived as a wimpy sort, as in the prototype who is consistently harassed by his fellow missionaries in every LDS mission on the globe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2019 06:23PM by scmd1.

"I remember a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms report back in the 1990s that that listed Utah as having more pipe bomb incidents per capita than any other state in the country. The report said that was partly because there is a lot of mining in Utah, so explosives are more prevalent in the state than is the case in many other parts of the country, but all the states surrounding Utah also have a lot of mining, and they didn't have the same level of pipe bomb incidents"

That does explain WHY in UT, they will look for A.N.Y. reason to light off fireworks...

I was shocked, stunned, and angered at Gov Herbert, when 2 summers ago, it was H.O.T...and D.R.Y..and people started asking him to stop/ban all fireworks sales in the state for the 4th and Pioneer Day. His response, he couldn't bring himself to T.H.A.T to the people of UT (who wanted to blow stuff up..) Never mind the R.E.S.T of us who wanted fireworks banned so the state wouldn't catch on fire..

We don't need social skills because we have the gospel. And if we happen to dig a little pit for our neighbor in the Church then its all fine/dandy because we are brothers/sisters in the gospel.

One thing I've noticed is that I've totally forgotten to harass all of you today with the latest MLM scheme I came across where the Holy Ghost gave me a super strong testimony that this is the one that is finally going to make me super super rich.

I pity you ex-Church people for all the blessings you are missing out on right now. You guys have to carry those extra burdens in your bank accounts by missing the blessings of tithing. No more fun joy in getting to do these wonderful chapel cleaning assignments. And you won't get to go to the CK where every minute non stop for the rest of all eternity you'll be receiving hundreds of millions of wonderful, not spam, messages from your spirit kiddies needing help finding car keys and other stuff. Oh how there could be no greater joy than this.

My response to the comments above:

1) I was an active Mormon for about 10 years, served a mission, spent all those years (except mission years) in Young Adult and Single's Wards, and I "NEVER" one time heard anyone say "You have a right to a female because of your maleness."

2) Never one time, did I hear "You have a right to a female, because you hold the Priesthood". Never...once.

3) In the Young Adult Wards and Single Wards I attended, the males always outnumbered the females by at least 10% or more. I know, I counted. I counted the actives, and the active males always outnumbered the active females.

4) I DID hear many times as a young Mormon convert at 18 and 19 years old: "if you serve a mission, and honor your priesthood, and stay morally worthy, GOD WILL SEND YOU a beautiful woman to take to the Temple!!!"

God was like a "Big Pimp" Who "sent" beautiful women to men as a "reward" for being a "faithful priesthood holder" (i.e. meeting attender, tithe payer).

5) NEVER (not "one" time) did I hear bishops or others "blame the women" because they were not married. I heard perhaps 50 times the males being blamed for "not doing your duty" and taking a Mormon woman to the Temple. _________NEVER ONE TIME_________ did I ever hear "the women are to be blamed" or "blame the women". Never happened. In the Wards I was in (YA and SA) the men were blamed, shamed, and lamed, often, for "not doing your duty". I never heard one time the women blamed for anything.

6) The single Mormon males I knew could be put into three categories:

First: Sexist immoral Cauvinist. These were the most popular men among the Mormon women, by far. Their attitude towards women was that women were property, and about as intelligent as retarded children. These men always married, in the Temple, to a young gorgeous Mormon women much younger than they. These active Priesthood-holders had MASSIVE amounts of sex before their missions, and after their missions, as single active Mormon males. Alpha Males.

Second: Ordinary Mormon men. Beta Males.

Third: Incels (involuntary celibates). Yes, these men were "promised" that if they went on missions, paid their tithing faithfully, and stayed morally clean, God would "send them a beautiful woman" to take to the Temple. They competed with Alpha Males and Beta Males, and always "lost". The only women available for them to marry were women that no man wanted. No, most of these men were NOT fat or ugly. They simply "lost" the competition, because half of the beautiful girls married or were the concubines of rich married Gentile men. Yes, after the age of about 30 or so, many of these men became "bitter"; often because Mormon women would not only reject them but often "play mind games" with them. That leads to bitterness. Omega Males.



7) My observations of single Mormons PROVED to me time and time again, than being "morally worthy" had _________________NOTHING______________ to do with if beautiful Mormon women were attracted to you, or wanted to marry you. The MAIN factors of Mormon women choosing a mate were:

First*Status/wealth/potential wealth and status of the male.

Second*Looks and personality of the male.

Third*Status in the Church (i.e. RM, status of family, etc.)

For half of the beautiful Mormon women, they married wealthy Gentile men who smoked and drank. So, being an "RM" was not very impressive to them, because they married (or became concubines of) wealthy/affluent Gentile men.

I "never" heard the women blamed for anything. Even if they got pregnant out of wedlock, and named the kid after the man or boy who got them pregnant, Mormon women were always presented as perfect, innocent, and incapable of willful sin.

Reality, I wasn't active in the church as a post-mission single male for nearly as long as you presumably were, so I don't have quite the background on which to draw as you do. From what I've heard, women, too, felt disproportionately blamed for chastity failures. I'm wondering if, behind the scenes, both sides might have been told, whether in individual counseling/interview sessions taking place behind closed doors when pregnancy happened or a confession took place, or when the singles were given the general admonishments against pre-marital sex that we all heard, that maintaining the law of chastity was the primary responsibility of THEIR gender and hence the primary fault of their gender when a failure to meet standards took place. Maybe the brethren played both sides in that regard, assuming no one would ever compare notes and discover that both sides had been played.

I'm just surmising here.


> I "never" heard the women blamed for anything.
> Even if they got pregnant out of wedlock, and
> named the kid after the man or boy who got them
> pregnant, Mormon women were always presented as
> perfect, innocent, and incapable of willful sin.

Mormonism promises that living the gospel results in real-world, in-the-life blessings. One of those blessings is an eternal companion. Perhaps less official, but still widely taught to teens, is you will be blessed with the spouse of your dreams. However, they never teach that you need to have other things going for you, the things people out in the real world need to attract a mate. So perhaps single LDS adults have been sitting back waiting for the magical blessings to deliver the One True Love. And they're getting impatient. They've been as righteous as possible but still no payoff. And (if they're truly righteous) they're getting hornier and hornier. And maybe, just maybe, they're starting to wonder if all the faithfulness and righteousness and chastity are worth it. No wonder they're cranky and hostile.

The judging and criticism might also be a manifestation of sour grapes. If someone is out of reach, then find faults with them.

I think most of the "bitterness" in single Mormon men over the age of 30, comes from realizing that the "be faithful and get blessings" thing is B.S. Also, yes, men can become "bitter" after observing Mormon women they consider their "equal" going after wealth and the immoral Mormon males. Yes, sometimes, the women are from a higher status, or better looks, etc., than the males. But not always. It is a supply and demand problem. If half of all "attractive" ACTIVE Mormon women marry Gentile men (who just happen to be wealthy), that takes them out of the "single" category, into the "unavailable" category. And, of course, when the Mormon women who remain often "lie and "play mind games" with you, that only increases the bitterness.


olderelder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The judging and criticism might also be a
> manifestation of sour grapes. If someone is out of
> reach, then find faults with them.

Exactly. Also, the bitterness in single Mormon males increases when they see, over and over and over and over and over again, very IMmortal Mormon males take gorgeous young women to the Temple. You see that one time, you say "anomaly" You see that 50 times, and you say "WTF?"

Yes, the LDS Church teaches a form of the "Prosperity Gospel" that "if you are a good Mormon, you'll get the woman of your dreams (or the man of your dreams), and a great job, and protection in travel, and healthy well-behaved children, and job promotions, and good health, etc." When you ARE faithful, and NONE of that comes about after decades, you begin to "wonder": especially when you see, over and over again, "wicked" men get "blessings" and the young gorgeous "thang" to take to the Temple. After seeing that about 50 times, the young single Mormon male, now about 35, usually leaves the Church.

olderelder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mormonism promises that living the gospel results
> in real-world, in-the-life blessings. One of those
> blessings is an eternal companion. Perhaps less
> official, but still widely taught to teens, is you
> will be blessed with the spouse of your dreams.
> However, they never teach that you need to have
> other things going for you, the things people out
> in the real world need to attract a mate. So
> perhaps single LDS adults have been sitting back
> waiting for the magical blessings to deliver the
> One True Love. And they're getting impatient.
> They've been as righteous as possible but still no
> payoff. And (if they're truly righteous) they're
> getting hornier and hornier. And maybe, just
> maybe, they're starting to wonder if all the
> faithfulness and righteousness and chastity are
> worth it. No wonder they're cranky and hostile.

I totally agree, this is a major reason why I left. The funny thing is though is that the GA's are completely oblivious to the fact that mormonism has become just another show where the talented 10% (upper middle class) can brag to each other and worship each other. Just sit through any sunday testimony meeting. It's all about thankfulness for traditional spouses luxuries, adoring kids etc. Nothing about the cross and injustices and persecutions for the cause that Christians are actually suppose to be bearing.

I've always just been very confused about some of this. When I was a single YA, I would go to every dance I could find in my area. (That means I went to 1 dance every weekend.) I was slender, and attractive. Not beautiful, by any means, but pretty. I was active, went to church, went on a mission. And, guess what? There were times when I would go six months and 1 time a whole year without anyone asking me to dance. I would go home in tears. This was in the 80s. There were no singles wards in my area, so, I was in my family ward.

Most of them didn't know me, but, they had obviously seen me at the dances enough. I loved to dance. And, would listen to the music and tap my toes.

So, who knows? Humans are weird.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2019 05:52PM by Heidi GWOTR.

Reality,

Thank you for your comments, for some reason my reply (I am the OP) got sorted up quite a bit and since it gave a little more background, I wanted to make sure you saw it.

These experiences are very interesting, thank you all for helping me understand this a little more.

Mel

Heidi,

That is a very sad story. Here I have noticed almost all single women are very heavy. How strange that you were not singled out.

However, I did hear from a friend in another state who did go to singles ward activities and no one there was interested in her either, she was also slender and attractive. She said the men were only interested in video gaming and were there because of social pressure, not desire to meet ladies.

So, maybe that happened to you also. How have you fared since then, did you leave the church and then find a partner?

Yes. I left the church and a little later met and married my husband of now 25 years. So, it did work out for the best for me.

But, in my youth, I was always left confused. Did I radiate too much independence? Who knows?

I attended some of those dances as well. I (am) was a very shy person. I always made a point of asking a girl to dance because I thought it was awful to come dressed up and not be asked to dance. Originally, I would focus on the girls that were a bit on the homely side or "less attractive". Not a lie, I was surprised of the number of turn downs I received. It really blew my mind! I can still recall walking along the wall asking "Would you like to dance?" I must have asked a dozen. Gosh, maybe they thought I was asking for a date to eternal marriage.

That experience was an eye-opener. From that point on, I started asking the real pretty ones FIRST. And they said "Yes!" It was very rare to be turned down and I am confident enough to admit that I am not very handsome and a terrible dancer.

I can honestly say that I never turned down a dance, nor a first date for that matter.

With stories like yours and mine, I still say, "humans are weird!"

Thank you Heidi, so glad you got a happy ending.

I admire your bravery in going to those dances. Did you meet your husband at a dance (haha?) Maybe he was one of the brave ones who asked you.

My guess is those men were commitment-phobic (she's pretty, if I ask her to dance we might like each other, then I'd have to get married, so I'd better stay away!)

So glad you found your prince charming!

Yes, he is! And, no, I met him at work. He is a never-mo, and has found my recovery from Mormonism a wild ride to say the least. I was out of the church for about 2 years when I found him.

I was a pretty, divorced woman with 3 children and moved back home to Northern California.

I never met a hostile LDS man; I met many completely disinterested LDS men. The singles dances were meat markets, just as bad if not worse than dance clubs. I was rarely asked to dance. I eventually married a great guy who was an exed mormon. He was rebaptized just after we married. We're still happy and married, more than 30 years later. I have left the morg; he no longer goes.

If I had just paid attention to "normal" LDS men, I would probably still be alone.

I was one of those women in the singles' ward. I NEVER wanted a rich man. I married one who earned less than I do. I was HOT. The bishop even told me so many times. I did typing for the ward and then when I found out the mormon guy who finally asked me out was gay, then I talked to the bishop a lot more.

I could date any nonnormon guy I wanted to, but mormon guys didn't like me. I was very devout and very pretty. AND I earned really good money. I worked with men who were chemists and scientists and very nice mormon men who couldn't figure out why I wasn't married, as well as the bishop I mentioned above. I was proposed to by 3 nonmormons and I turned them down for a temple marriage. I was 20 when the first one asked me, and I'm with that first one now and have been for 14 years as of tomorrow. We reconnected on the 15th of January 14 years ago. AND I certainly don't look like i did at 20 at 61, but he still finds me extremely APPEALING.

I "hung out with" a guy in his 30s who didn't marry until he was in his 50s (after my husband left me) and another one who I hung out with who didn't get married until almost 50 (and also after my husband left me). The second one told our van pool driver that my husband beat him to me. Well, my husband was gay and I knew this other guy for 5 years before I met my husband.

Reality? Are you kidding me? NOW YOU WERE AN ANGRY SINGLE MORMON MAN!!! You just proved it by what you wrote. I'd post a picture of myself back in my 20s (and even now) if I was allowed to.

Mormon men were threatened by me. In fact, the bishop told me not to tell them what I earned--any of the men in the single's ward.

Hell I would have dated almost any mormon guy if they would have just asked me. Hung out with many. I made a really good friend.

The older guy I talked about above is very wealthy. Still is. He married someone with 6 children and wasn't happy. Still isn't.

There were many mormon guys I wanted to date and I made it known to them I did want to date them, but it was as though I had the plague. The reason I dated the first nonmormon was because he said he was going to show me how men treated women. He worked with me at Thiokol (for those who don't know, they made the space shuttle propellant). He is a chemist. I turned him down when he asked me out.

AND I NEVER SLEPT AROUND either. Everyone tried to figure out why I wasn't dating mormons. Well, I tried. Just like Heidi above. But stupid me, I held out for a mormon and ended up with my husband as the story goes (all over this board so I won't repeat it).

My daughter is getting married on the 26th. She is a 33-year-old TBM. She is tall, slender, long blonde hair (natural blonde), who has a degree and works as a supervisor/trainer for Princess Cruises in Alaska 6 months out of the year and earns as much as she would here in the lower 48 in a year. BUT she has had a hard time finding a mormon guy to marry. She finally did. She's marrying the guy I wanted her to marry for the past 6 years because he is a nice decent mormon guy who doesn't think he is god's gift to women.

Reality sounds a lot like poster ‘Free Man’.

If he’s not the same actual person, it’s the same misogynistic horseshit.

Yes, very similar.

The politics (in some previous posts), the judgment of "immoral" Mormon men who get all the women, the discussion of women as if they are chattels, the way in which anger at women and anger at the church are intertwined, the sense of rejection by women: Mormonism produces a fair number of such misogynists although in this case they could indeed be identical.

My childhood nanny when my dad taught at BYU-Hawaii was attractive (my oldest brother's friends, who did such sexist things, rated her a solid 8.5 out of 10) back in the day, and was smart, nice, hygienic, and multi-talented. She was on the thin side, but I can remember even from when I was little that she had a nice set of boobs by the time I came along. She may not have been that developed when she first arrived in Hawaii. I've always been a boob man.

She was young, only 16 when she started college, but she was 20 by the time she graduated, and Mormons guys often like them a little young as long as they're legal. Historically they didn't even care if the women were of legal age.She couldn't afford expensive clothing in college which worked against her, but my parents and older brother and sister said she always looked well put-together.

Hardly anyone asked her out. My dad was her bishop and would try to get guys in the ward to ask her out. He really shouldn't have been acting as the matchmaker of his ward, but if that is the worst thing a bishop does in my opinion, he's not all that bad. There weren't many takers where my nanny was concerned. When someone did ask her out, my dad said, the guy usually said he'd had a good time. The only complaint was that she was a little prudish, but while that may stop a girl from getting lots of dates, when LDS guys are ready to get serious they sometimes look for the girls they assume haven't gone very far with anyone. That never happened with her.

She began teaching when she was 20. She was reasonably frugal,though she spent little money on clothing in hope of attracting a Mormon husband, and money she saved would have gone directly into marital assets had there been a taker.

It always seemed weird that hardly anyone wanted to date her. My mom thought her roommate for her first semester before she moved in with us shared information about her with a few other girls, who then shared that info with others. The gossip my parents knew about wasn't totally false, that she was from a slightly skid-row family. Knowing the nature of gossip and gossips, someone might have added something a little seedier about her though my parents never heard it. She was the only member in her family. Her other family members were lowre middle class but not really skid row. Her parents were definitely blue collar (dad was a sanitation worker) and no one was Mormon. One sister might have been lesbian, though we don't think it was known by anyone at BYUH. As far as my parents could tell, that was all she had working against her. She eventually got tired of it and, much to my dad's chagrin, began dating nonmembers. She eventually married one, left the church, which she said she figured out was bogus while she was at BYU-H, and never looked back.

She's presumably much happier now than she would have been had she married a Mormon, but I found it odd that the Mormon guys had no use for her.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2019 12:23AM by scmd1.

Mormonism is a very competitive society, especially for men who are expected to bring home lotsa bucks & rise thru the hierarchy.

(to me at least) Those pressures exert tension on every part of a guy's life in nearly all cases, there's no wonder it comes out sometimes as hostility and/or violence.

I actually come from mormon royalty, although I never knew that until I came here. I have family who came here in the Martin Handcart Company. I have polygamists in my past, etc. BUT my dad wasn't very active while we grew up. My mother was socially awkward. She was raised as the oldest child of deaf parents. We were treated as the fringe element (per the mormon royalty list on this board) and we still are treated that way. My dad raised very independent daughters who spoke our minds and still do. We all had good jobs and still do, and up until recently, I earned more than my ex. I've always earned more than he did per hour although I didn't work for 8 months after my twins were born. I NEED my own paycheck. I like paying my own way.

I was NEVER your typical mormon woman, nor is my daughter. My boyfriend makes A LOT more money than I do and yet I pay for every other meal we go out to have, I pay half the movies we go to. He pays for some things I can't possibly afford, but I bought all but 1 dress we bought for his son's wedding. I bought 3 and he bought 1. I take great pride in paying my own way in life. My ex even admitted that he wouldn't have dared to leave had I not been so well employed and knowing I'd do what it took to raise the kids.

I was probably a prude, but I certainly didn't dress poorly. I had a good job and I loved buying clothes and loved dressing nice. The rich guy above told another girl I know that she should dress like Colleen. I'm overweight now and my boyfriend's ex, who works out twice a day, was so jealous of me at their son's wedding it was hysterical to watch.

All this stuff about how mormon girls act. I know there are some. I WAS NOT ONE OF THEM. I was a good mormon girl. Everyone I know was shocked by the fact mormon guys didn't date me. I'm not a flirt and never have been. I'm just me. I find it impossible to be fake.

Oh, my sister and I were laughing about us being the fringe element (she is still mormon). Her husband and my ex are considered mormon royalty because they know how to play the mormon culture game. I was treated better as the wife of a cheating husband (nobody knew) than I ever was as a mormon, so when I knew the marriage was ending, I left for many reasons, but one was because I didn't want me children treated like I was growing up. My sister and I even determined that my ex (gay and all) still gets treated in this ward as mormon royalty and I don't. Go figure.

I find it extremely shocking who in my life is now active mormon and I'm not. I have a friend who slept with every guy she dated. Now she posts things mormon (she even cheated on her husband in the past few years), but she posts so much stuff about mormonism on fb it makes me want to vomit. Oh, and she was very overweight and still is. She dated more than I did and married 4 years before I did and she is 2 years younger.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2019 09:41AM by cl2.

cl2,

Your comment highlights what I found MOST BAFFLING about guys in LDS:

"Hell I would have dated almost any mormon guy if they would have just asked me. Hung out with many."

Outside the church if you hang out with a guy, and you get along they will want to move it to romance (from my past experience).

But in the church I had long and intimate conversations with a member, who would be furious if I talked to any other guy or if a guy sat next to me, yet would never ask me out and even told me: "We will never be in a relationship, ever."

Regular guys would not waste time building a relationship that doesn't lead to romance.

I almost felt there was some sort of Mormon thing about never letting women get close. Just dangle a relationship and then say stop, no more, that's all you get.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2019 10:31AM by mel.

I think this part of the thread is on to something.

As a young Mormon man, I found building relationships difficult. I've concluded that I was in a bit of a bind.

Dating was never about just having fun. And if you continued on for a few months, then the couple either had to make a decision about marriage or risk sexual sin. Consequently, asking for that first or second date is a risky endeavor. You could find yourself locked down to a marriage, or maybe you don't trust yourself not to "sin" with that person.

The initial stakes for getting involved with someone are just really high. Now if you have a heedless type of personality that doesn't worry about long-term consequences, getting married to someone you've known for only 3-4 months is no big deal. But for others its a big problem, so you just might avoid serious relationships as much as you can.

OK. That's something I can understand, and can see as plausible for many.

AND I COULD HAVE CARED LESS IF HE WAS RICH. I could have married several chemists and scientists I worked with who made much more than I did BY FAR. But I chose not to. I just wanted to marry a nice mormon guy. I didn't want a bishop either. I wanted a husband and father for my children. A man who would take care of us. ha ha ha ha ha Not what I got.

BUT the rich guy was the second counselor in the bishopric (other 2 married). He would say "Hi." To me from the stand. One time, he was officiating (is that it) and leaned over and said to me, "Smile." My roommate used to kick me every time he'd look at me. I had bruises on my ankles. I finally said something to him and he said it wasn't like that. So I just gave up on him. BUT then a few weeks later, he told me he needed to talk to me. Never did. Glad I didn't end up with him. Although he was really upset when he found out my ex is gay and I was getting divorced.

The second guy I talked about above said he didn't want a fat wife and so if he met any girl's mother and she was overweight, he'd quit dating her. Well, he never dated me and my mother wasn't over weight. I was borderline anemic per my current/past boyfriend (dated him at 20 and now). So when this second guy finally got married in his late 40s, he was bald. I laughed and laughed and laughed.

Nope, I couldn't get dates with mormon guys no matter who they were. I had some really strange experiences. My sister told me I should write a book.

Hahah!

So let me get this straight.

Older, single, TBMs, are bitter?

NO?

You try believing that heaven is meant for married people and if you're not married you can be a servant to a married couple.

To top it off try believing that as a man you're better than women and then trying to convince women that you're better than them.

"In socializing with the 30+ single men in my ward (in group settings) I noticed they were hostile toward the young single ladies. Making disparaging comments and a lack of courtesy." -Mel
=============

Perhaps mere skepticism it is - not hostility?

With a little reflection, can realize that TSCC culture is one of universal hyper-judgementality, hyper-criticality of ALL things - whatever the topic - to foster the pseudo-sense of: "I'm Better Than." (But that same mind is also hypercritical of the self, resulting in feelings of inferiority, anxiety, and fear -- making for unconfident easily led sheep.)

Just so happened the topic of interest was the single women?

Snowball,

Thank you for your very perceptive insights. I think you are onto something too!

What you said:

"Dating was never about just having fun. And if you continued on for a few months, then the couple either had to make a decision about marriage or risk sexual sin. Consequently, asking for that first or second date is a risky endeavor. You could find yourself locked down to a marriage, or maybe you don't trust yourself not to "sin" with that person."

Yes, I could kind of understand the "chastity" thing for the young kids but for older singles, mostly divorced, it is insane. We should be able to date and have boyfriends without having to marry them! And just have fun!

While new to the church I had a great connection with a single guy, and he was interested, and sweet, and I impulsively once leaned in and kissed his cheek when we said goodbye, and he liked it, too. But after that he immediately started wearing his garments (he never had before) and was never alone with me again.

I like your explanation, that he couldn't trust himself with me, that's why he never asked me out.

It's a better thought than--what's wrong with me? Why won't he ask me out?

SO great big thanks, Snowball!!!

I don't think there's a one-size fits all answer. I think there's many factors and variables. Growing up in the church, all of my crushes involved non-member girls. I was not attracted any of the YW in my ward. One of the fine, upstanding Mia Maids would belch in the middle of SS school class and then yell out "Ew Messy! That's so rude." A bunch of them were snobbish as well. I had a better time at school surrounded by non-members.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2019 05:19PM by messygoop.

Dr. No,

The group was at restaurant for dinner, the young single lady was late, I suggested someone go out to meet her to guide her to our table, the 30+ single man said "Don't make it easy on her" also there were other half-joking but mean comments to her when she arrived...

I just picked up on the hostility. When I mentioned where I worked same guy made a disparaging comment towards me--thus, my comment/question, are all single older men hostile towards women?

Thanks for your input!

mel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
"single man said "Don't make it easy on her" also there were other half-joking but mean comments to her when she arrived...

I just picked up on the hostility. When I mentioned where I worked same guy made a disparaging comment towards me--thus, my comment/question . . . "
=====================

Lol, I get your point! :)
Sounds like a totally fun crowd to hang with. Sounds like the type --- bet they groused about the menu, and then the food, and the price, and the wait staff, and about other drivers, and work, and and etc. etc. types whose real problem is their undies fit too tight, no?
That, or they're just LDS ;)

I'm dealing with a situation now with a group of TBM woman, and OMG, what a tempest in a teacup. They seem to be trying to one-up each other in umbrage-taking. I think it's an attention-getting ploy myself.

as (better word?) Warped as many Mormons are of/by 'religion' <which is little to do with ChurchCo!>, is it any wonder that people find it difficult to find-keep balance in their lives?

I strongly suspect this is related to the (supposed) lack of mental health among mormons...

good mental health = balance

like I said, this is my .02

People can become hostile when they are deceived. Church teachings contain lifestyle proscriptions and promote these as direct connections to "blessings."

For men these are: be faithful -> gain an attractive wife. What goes unsaid is that traditional women (that LDS sisters are taught to aspire to be) seek security. LDS teachings can be contrary to offering that security. For instance: a mission sets a man 2 years behind his peers; tithing sets a man 10% (more actually) behind his peers; the Sabbath can cost a man opportunity for promotions; etc.

So faithful young man won't have the resources to impress the LDS women. Without a "great wife," he doesn't even have a prestigious calling to show that he is on the LDS fast track.

Hostility ensues. That hostility can be misplaced. The Church should own this hostility, but it can be misdirected against women, family or even self-directed. Since hostility isn't attractive, it compounds/

Btw, sisters experience the same symptoms. Follow Church teachings leads to "blessing." When those "blessings" don't materialize, hostility ensues.

Idleswell,

Thank you, these are all very interesting points. I hadn't thought about the mission setting them back 2 years behind the peers but you are absolutely right about that.

I also wonder if the mission, because it takes them away from taking classes or training for their career, is a type of time-out which derails some people from goals. You can't concentrate on your career, I imagine, when the mission is 24/7 taking your time.

I think even post-mission, the time the church takes for callings and study and attendance can cut into career/study time and also set them behind.

And lastly, considering this same 2 years, I imagine a lot of the women who might have married them are now steady with someone else when they return, and are no longer available to them.

Thanks for your insights!

The poor behavior that you are describing, regardless of gender, is an outcome of the mental illness known as MORmONISM.

More specifically the passive /aggressive pathological tendencies that are so prevalent in MORmON culture due to MORmON Members so frequently being overtly instructed to NOT be competitive in the midst of an environment of raging competition for the rewards and prestige of being a top MORmON.

Those who realize that MORmONISM is utterly contradictory BS can either quit, or stay in and use that realization to their advantage in attempting to elevate themselves in the MORmON chain of command/ the grand MORmON leadership calling derby. Those who never come to that realization are stuck in MORmONISM, indulging in the passive aggressive behavior that you noted as a form of relief for their pent up anxiety and frustration as they persist in a contest where they can NEVER prevail except to abuse others just as they are being abused.