left more than 10 years ago but am still angry that they bamboozled me. is this how it feels when a company takes away all the money an employee counted on when they retired?

this morning i googled and asked why rusty was making all these changes and i loved the answer.....PEOPLE ARE FINALLY LEAVING.

here is the link to that wonderful article. and can we all have a refund now? can't get the decades of life back but as my momma alway said, that green stuff can dry a lot of tears.

???



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2019 11:06PM by mel.

No link?

https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2018/04/22/commentary-how-the-new-lds-president-can-be-a-prophet-of-change/ sorry. Guess l'm angrier than I realized

Daria,

Thanks for the link. Interesting article though as soon as the author credited one Asian and one Latino as equals diversity he lost me to laughter. When I see some women I might see diversity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2019 11:38PM by mel.

Not in our lifetimes. As gratifying as the thought of a total and complete collapse of the Evil Empire is, it won't happen that way. It will be a slow, decades long, slide into irrelevance.

Look at the Catholics. They have been plagued by centuries of scandals much larger than the Mormons have had. Catholicism is far less influential than it was 50 years ago, but it is still very much alive.

The fact of the matter is that there are at least 2 generations of members that are wholly and completely locked into the church. It forms the core of their identities and no amount of evidence will ever convince them that it is false. For them, there will always be some shoddy excuse made up by apologists to ease their minds when the cognitive dissonance starts to rise. They stand to lose too much (social standing, career opportunities, family relationships, etc) if they ever left. So they won't.

However, by all appearances, the church has passed its high water mark - I would argue it that happened sometime in the early 2000s. It will continue to decline, but it will not empty out. I do believe that the decline will accelerate as the Boomers die off in increasing numbers and the GenXers hit their golden years. I foresee a massive drop off with the Millennials and their children.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2019 03:17AM by Strength in the Loins.

See, I did learn something at the evil cult....how to be delusional and wishful thinking

Not soon enough

If anything, it’ll probably eventually turn into a more mainstream church ( maybe). They’re already relaxing more and more things . There will eventually be less and less requirements of members vs losing them completely.Hopefully,temples and JS will be a thing of the past, but that part will definitely not be in our time. They’ll hopefully dump the BOM too and just preach the Christian Bible
One thing they’ll keep though is tithing

As soon as other cults die out,you all can't be so naive as to believe that Mormonism is the only religion that acts like a cult right?

I came from a pretty diverse religious location,I would say a religion is a religion when it teaches truth and strives to uplift the consciousness of humans.Would it be perfect ? nope? is science perfect? It still has much to grow.

Family mainly atheist,In my 30 plus years went to a catholic church,Mormon Church,Evangelical church,Buddhism (relatives) and now spiritual yoga haha.

For me what qualifies as a good religion is to bring clarity and improved consciousness by experience.

I’m at the point where I can see Mormonism as something you can make into a positive experience. But then there’s the culty doctrine. I went to an LDS funeral service recently and felt sad for the living. The leadership is force feeding them dumbed down correlated gruel.

The “one true church” claim is a huge stumbling block that isn’t going away. If TSCC drops all of the BS, its value proposition is gone.

"clarity and improved consciousness"


A spin on the treadmill to Zion will certainly deliver that - no?

Religion in general is seeing a significant decline. People are finding meaning and happiness outside of what religions have taught. People can be honest and virtuous without ever setting foot in a church.
People should be respected for the good decisions that they have made, not by the company they keep.

The temples will be the last thing to go. It is the biggest of the Big Lies that have sustained Mormonism for so long. Mormonism will only die when people start to believe that the temple stuff really doesn't bring you any closer to God.

That is a really good article, from the Salt Lake Tribune no less.

It's rare to see it so sharply critical of the Mormon church IMO.

Can or will Nelson attempt to undo what his predecessors did in terms of damage control? I highly doubt it. That isn't the kind of change he or Wendy foresee.

He is not a prophet, but a good old boy. He is part of the Group Think that got him where he is today. He will sustain the decisions of Monson and those before him to both his and TSCC's detriment. Those policies aren't going to change under his leadership.

That 55,000 Millenials resigned in 2005 before the drove of Millenials started leaving hit a chord with me. That was the year my millenial daughter and I resigned our memberships.

The 55,000 number supposedly came from Mormon Leaks. I have looked at Mormon Leaks and have not been able to verify that number. I really question if that is true.

For what it is worth, the LDS Church claims that less than 1% have been leaving each year for the past 20 years:

http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=4535962&itype=CMSID

That’s resigning, which is a big number is you figure there are a lot more just going inactive.

They also say there are 16 million on the books, but most of those are inactive.

1% per year is 160,000 per year, for 20 years is 3.2 Million. And those are just the ones resigning, not counting the members quietly leaving without looking back.

Every missionary would have to get more than 2 converts per year who actually stick around for the long term to make it up for the number officially resigning.

So in Utah is there still a social/business stigma to being an ex-Mormon and/or a networking advantage to being a regular-attending tithe-paying member? Once that melts away from the edges and center (SLC), then the numbers leaving will accelerate.

Just checked again. The article says 1/10 of 1% which the article says is between 15,000-16,000 per year. Of course most people don't bother to resign, but the church doesn't seem to be in danger of completely emptying out anytime soon.

The reality is there are always people going inactive. If there are births to make up for them (and there are), the LDS Church will remain stable. My guess is that about 1/3 of the children of active members go inactive on average. In some families everyone stays active while in others everyone goes inactive. In every ward I have attended in the last 40 years 2/3 of the members were inactive. I guess what I am trying to say is that the falloff seems more dramatic because we can follow it on social media. 40 years ago the falloff was there, but it remained hidden in the background. There is still a core group that will continue to sustain the LDS Church. If you ever try to talk them out of Mormonism it is like talking to a wall.

That's why I believe those who remain reflect a genuine dumbing down of the church IQ. Most of the people there just accept what they're told without question.

For those who've learned to think critically they've compartmentalized their thinking between Mormonism teachings and factual historical proof refuting their beliefs.

But more of the people who have stayed are not critical thinkers. They are really very simpleton and accept on blind faith what they're told by church leaders without question.

That's a real dumbing down process I didn't see in my generation growing up. It's a totally different dynamic today as the intelligentsia tend to move away, and the tunnel blind stay.

The more inquisitive growing up in TSCC will either eventually leave like others have. Or they will change TSCC from within. But that is a long time from coming if indeed change like accepting the LGBT community is on the horizon, or giving women equal standing in TSCC.

For a lot of people it is merely a social club which charges 10% dues to belong. I suspect that is especially true in Utah where the activity rate is much higher. For a lot of people the stress of leaving on their families would seem to be too high of a price to pay. Some of the changes made recently are just making it easier to stay in. Many people can figure out a way to minimize their 10%. When the LDS Church lowers that requirement, you will know they are in trouble.

Even if it the COJCOLDS collapsed tomorrow, splinter groups would form and persist. Beware of Heartlanders.

True that.

Anyone can start a cult. It only takes suckers to make them grow.

Rome wasn't built in a day, nor did it fall in one. Since "Rome" is still here, did it ever really "FALL"? or did it just change so much it's just there for fun now?

Since this mormon church took generations to build up, it will take generations to turn into the desiccated corpse that it deserves to be.

It's happening in front of our eyes. Every time I tune in to some mormon bit of news, it appears as if it's happening actually pretty fast too.

Protestantism survived slavery. Not only that, but African American christians are some of teh most devout ever. Adaption, change, it happens. Slowly, but they will not empty out.

They change by omission. Keep it strong enough to keep the old in, but quite enough on some issues to allow the youth leg room for their beliefs. Adam-God, Black man's curse, evolution, contraception, republican politics, and even caffeine, all different now.


You just have to get a newer, fresher narrative. Christianity just said, well the southern slavery baptists understood Jesus wrong, try out new and improved recepie! What they don't realize, there isn't any secret Jesus recipe, it bullshit.

Same with Mormonism. They keep quite for a few years, read the scriptures differently, get a new narrative, and trudge along. If Christianity survived the Crusades, child abuse, slavery, abuse of women, war, etc for a thousand years without emptying out, then Mormonism won't be any different.

(anono this week)
"Protestantism survived slavery. Not only that, but African American christians are some of teh most devout ever."

I would say the slaves had it better under protestants in America than anywhere else. They gladly chose the protestant religion, not because they had to but because they wanted to. Incidentally there are more immigrants from Africa that chose to come than were ever brought as slaves.

"If Christianity survived the Crusades, child abuse, slavery, abuse of women"

I'm not sure what Christianity has to do with the crusades, child abuse, slavery or the abuse of women? This planet is full of dictators that have abused their people for centuries. Just look at how the Russians have been treated by their leaders. Most everyone outside Western Europe were living in miserable poverty, what's happened recently in China and India is miraculous.

I would say marginalized people have got the best treatment anywhere in history on this planet in no other place than under the west, under Christianity...

But I agree mormonism will adapt and survive.

Africans used to believe that their children could very well be gods, and wouldn't even put them on the floor out of respect. Then they learned that children are born with original sin and to spare the rod was to spoil the child, and the Christian Africans began to beat the sin out of them.

Christianity is dark, and hateful. It make bad men worse and good men ignorant. Yes, all men can, and are like that. But Christianity is far worse than Mormonism ever was or will be.

Guy3

Just for sharing purposes,

You don't know what is dark and hateful yet.

Try Stalin,Mao,Genghis Khan haha These guys are the real deal and godless

Now i am leaving out a lot of folks in the dark and hateful list

I just mention one for illustration,Saddam Hussein and a lot of folks like him that appear in his region.

This is real hate man, to the point i am also afraid.No Joke.

If you really are aware of the truth as it is.Its no comparison haha!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2019 11:09PM by johnhope.

Men are evil, that obvious. Men who don't believe in Jesus, can still be evil. Christianity is man-made, no God in it. The Bible was written by Men, hence why so many horrible things can be done in its name. So many contradictions, so much bigotry, all mixed in with some good messages to hide it stench.

The argument isn't Men are good, and Christianity makes them evil. The argument is men are evil, and Christianity is a product of men, not God. So, as a product of Men, Christianity as well is evil. The God of Christianity does not exist, it is man made.

What Christianity does, is similar to what dictators do, it centralized power without the ability to question it. That is dangerous. So to bring up men who were evil without Jesus is not the contradict the point, it strengthens it.

Guy3

What if i said men are inherently good ha ha,

Remember when you are a child,your always happy.No matter the circumstance.You can pretty much play with with everybody haha. When you grow older,that's when some older folks start to telling you some other people are bad.

But not Christianity,love your neighbor who ever that maybe haha.

I see that you have a belief that Christianity is bad,do you actually have christian friends?

Actually i have christian friends,Mormon friends,Buddhist Friends and Yogic Friends (Hindu)

Do they openly hate people No.Do they say people are bad NO
Do they quietly hate people No.Do they quietly say people are evil NO

Although they might say other things haha.

But i can tell you some belief systems actually ask its people to hate haha. Blind hate and that's bad.

I learned not to hate people,its unhealthy.

Basically its just this,some religions actually encourage its followers to blame all the world's problem to others.Never themselves.

So you have those folks that always say other folks are evil.Not quite unlike Hitler.

Proper Christianity never encourage that and so is Buddhism and Hinduism.

Illusions are difficult things to break,until one stop believing and start experiencing first hand.

Good Luck :) .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2019 12:15AM by johnhope.

Maybe I"m just thinking of the Wyoming Christian who points to the bible and says we should still execute people because without the death penalty Jesus wouldn't have been put to death. It allows bad ideas to be put forward as an authority because God said so.

And yes, not all men are Bad. but a lot of them are. Christianity is just as bad as Mormonism. It is just as true as Mormonism.

I think that’s more the problem of an educational system that encourages uncritical deference to authority. It’s how evangelicals were convinced a border wall is a good idea, for example. The rise of demagogues, whether in political or religious spheres, is symptomatic of a deeper societal decay. Something Christianity has failed to fix, which tells me that it’s afflicted with the same corruption. Maybe it’s dying (however slowly) because it deserves to. Or, maybe it’s waiting for a metamorphosis or an archaic revival. Either way, there’s no fixing Mormonism. It will die.

Christianity will evolve. It won’t evolve quickly, but that’s it’s nature. It’s why religions are behind the curve in times of rapid change. They’re a stabilizing force, even if they are a drag.

I think the most damaging thing in Christianity is when individuals, not just churches, say "I prayed about it, and I know that's what I am supposed to do." Or "I prayed about it and I know God wanted him as President," and ignores everything he does wrong.

Its like when TBMs are taught to respond to anti-mormonism by just bearing their testimony, like that solves anything. But it isn't a Mormon problem, its a problem where people believe that God knows all. Like there is no Client change, because God controls the climate, men can't cause it. Or God killed people in the Bible, so executions are okay. Well God also drowned babies in the Bible, does that make abortion okay?

I just hate the ultimate appeal to authority. I deal with it as an attorney when clients say "I prayed and God will take care of it." And i think, if you don't listen to me you're going to jail idiot.

I notice the term "true christianity." Whenever Christianity got it wrong in the past they just had the wrong Jesus recipe, but we got it right now! It took me a decade to finally realize there wasn't any "true chrsitianity" that has any God in it. There is as much God in Christianity as there is in Mormonism.

Do you iron your black apron, or is it wrinkle-free fabric?

Well I've spent thousands of hours in Court as a criminal defense attorney. Seen plenty of people pray to their God to get them out of their screwups. Arguing in front of Hard-core Christians who love nothing more than to pass judgment (literally) and I know their Dogma clouds their thinking. With the words "In God We Trust" blaring at me in a Government courthouse while I am in the trenches dealing with child molesters, murders, wife beaters, and drug dealers. I find Christianity just downright distracting in those moments, and wish it would just be left out.

They must find comfort in their belief that Jesus will forgive them even if criminal justice system refuses to see things their way. Maybe your job gives you better insight into the mind of Joseph Smith. Why wouldn’t a sociopath love Christianity? It’s the perfect excuse to be bad.

But then there’s the 96% of the population who aren’t sociopaths. Or aren’t left to the prisons to deal with their mental incapacitation. Christianity can just as well be an excuse to be good. It’s the wheat and the tares all over again.

To quote the Tao te Ching, what is a bad man but a good man’s teacher? Maybe you just have too many teachers.

Mormonism is as impersonal as disease. It's numbers will rise, as the birth rates rise. Mormonism's #1 source of new members is newborn BIC babies. I was one. No choice, at all. By the time the babies grow up and get a brain, they leave the cult, but then there is another batch of babies on the rise to take their place. And so it goes.... Death and taxes and religions.

I think Elder Oaks will be a more effective laxative.