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Posted by: slskipper ( )
Date: March 03, 2019 01:58PM

It is so easy to lump apostates into the category of too intellectual and by implication not receptive to the Holy Spirit, which has come to be interpreted as a fundamentally emotional phenomenon. So yes, if you are in a room full of emotional extremists, and you yourself do not base you life on your emotions, you will have a hard time.

But the worst failure of the LDS church, IMO, is the short shrift it gives to those who dare to possess compassion beyond the limits set by those in power. We reject homophobia not because we think too much, but because we sincerely care about our gay fellows. We care about social justice. We care about treating women as more than baby factories. We feel badly for the disenfranchised in our societies, and recognize that religion talks a good talk but never seems quite able to actually do anything about it.

That is why a great many of us have left the church.

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Posted by: David Cohen ( )
Date: March 03, 2019 02:21PM

That seems to be a large portion of the people currently leaving the church. It also seems to be taking a huge chunk of the heart and soul of Mormonism.

Those leaving in the mid-1990s through the 2000's might have been skewed somewhat more toward those digging into church history and doctrinal issues. The wave leaving now looks like it contains a big percentage of those you describe. That is the group that does much of the heavy lifting in wards and stakes.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 03, 2019 02:25PM

Yes. On grounds of morality, compassion, common sense, and spiritual sustenance, Mormonism fails completely. People of ethical and emotional integrity have a very difficult time in that religion.

The disenchantment can be moral, intellectual, or a combination of both.

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Posted by: Elyse ( )
Date: March 03, 2019 06:41PM

A simple understanding of DNA would also convince most people that the Book of Mormon is fiction.

There never were any Nephites or Lamanites.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: March 03, 2019 07:04PM

I left because I didn't like the boring, noisy meetings, the legalism and Pharisee-like rules, the interference in politics, the blacks and the priesthood issues,homophobia, the ERA, temple garments, too much JS and little Jesus, little done at Christmas and Easter and on and on. I learned about the historical issues long after I quit going.The church simply didn't work for me



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2019 10:00PM by bona dea.

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Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: March 03, 2019 08:20PM

"We reject homophobia not because we think too much, but because we sincerely care about our gay fellows."

I'm don't think mormons reject gayness because they are scared of it (as the word homophobia implies) but more because they think that children should have equal rights like adults and children are just as valuable as adults, and have the right to have both sexes (and parents) in their upbringing. The gay activists differ in that they believe that adults have more rights than kids. And that they can substitute the same gender for a parent and the kid will not be abused.

It's a legal interpretation and a difference of opinion. No one is scared of gays though.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: March 03, 2019 08:25PM

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm don't think mormons reject gayness because
> they are scared of it (as the word homophobia
> implies) but more because they think that children
> should have equal rights like adults and children
> are just as valuable as adults, and have the right
> to have both sexes (and parents) in their
> upbringing. The gay activists differ in that they
> believe that adults have more rights than kids.
> And that they can substitute the same gender for a
> parent and the kid will not be abused.

These are some of the arguments which used to be used to defend laws and practices which forbade interracial adoptions.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 03, 2019 09:08PM

I'm not sure of the implications of what you write. You said:

Mormons "think that children should have equal rights like adults and children are just as valuable as adults, and have the right to have both . . .parents . . .in their upbringing."

Do you believe that divorce should be illegal? Because that is what your sentence implies.

How about unmarried people? Should it be illegal for them to reproduce?

These are the implications of saying that children should have equal rights with adults when it comes to family structure and that they have the right to be reared in two-parent homes.

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Posted by: exminion ( )
Date: March 04, 2019 12:39AM

You make no sense, MacRomney.

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Posted by: Historischer ( )
Date: March 04, 2019 04:20PM

Maybe a little sense. At least it was a feeble attempt to construct a reasonable argument.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: March 04, 2019 08:16PM


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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: March 04, 2019 08:20PM

that I couldn't come to terms with my gay boyfriend supposedly being perverted and damned. I was taught he was a monster and I had to call him every hour or so to hear his voice so I'd know he wasn't. I was in a very bad place for a long, long time over the gay issues.

It wasn't just that, though. I just told my dear aunt that I put all my trust in the leaders of the lds church and they betrayed me. There is not one who didn't. They used and abused me, and then blamed me for my failure to make my ex straight. Why would I want to spend my eternities following the leaders of the lds church?

Those are the things that got me out. I had no idea there was a group like this one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2019 08:20PM by cl2.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 04, 2019 09:53AM

Nice points nicley put slskipper.


Being intellectual--or valuing fact and reason--does not negate genuine emotion and empathy. These differing traits are not mutually exclusive but in fact work well together--even critical to have in unison.

The Mormon church integrates none of those traits. Obedience supplants personal autonomy and empathy must either be approved and align with the Mormon agenda or be turned off like a light switch.

For this reason Mormons rightly fear the natural man, which is what we are and why we could not remain in an artificial environment.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: March 04, 2019 01:09PM

I think the church actually delights in pushing intelligent and sympathetic members out the door. It's easier to justify their "Don't get offended" mantra.

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Posted by: perky ( )
Date: March 04, 2019 01:25PM

May want to also include people getting out because; though LDS people are "chosen," often times TBMs act more like Satan than Jesus and sometimes treat one another very unkindly.

I tried the intellectual stuff which got my wife thinking, but ultimately it was the stupid and unkind acts and words of TBM members that caused her to fully pull the rip cord.

The dumbass bishop called a convicted pedphile's wife to be young womens leader. My wife called the bishop on it and saw to it that the guy's name was put on the sex offender list/map online. This was not met with kindnes by the bishopprick or many ward members. Talk about a cult - this is the defintion of cult behavior in my view.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2019 01:27PM by perky.

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Posted by: angela ( )
Date: March 04, 2019 01:35PM

It was the homophobia that began the cracks in my shelf. Then all the hoop-jumping that has to take place to be a "family forever"

Love is never mentioned. Just hoop jumping

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Posted by: mel ( )
Date: March 04, 2019 02:50PM

angela Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It was the homophobia ....

Their definitions of who is acceptable keep shrinking. Soon no one will meet their standards to be members.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: March 04, 2019 01:49PM

slskipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is so easy to lump apostates into the category
> of too intellectual and by implication not
> receptive to the Holy Spirit, which has come to be
> interpreted as a fundamentally emotional
> phenomenon.

I don't think it is "too intellectual" but for me I was too unreceptive to "the Holy Spirit."

> So yes, if you are in a room full of
> emotional extremists, and you yourself do not base
> you life on your emotions, you will have a hard
> time.

If you don't base your life on their emotions is a truer statement I think.

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Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: March 04, 2019 06:48PM

slskipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We care about treating women as more than
> baby factories.

They do. Women are also meal makers, laundry doers, house cleaners...

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Posted by: Mike a ( )
Date: March 04, 2019 07:49PM

The truth. Just takes some very basic common sense and a desire to be honest.

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Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: March 04, 2019 08:43PM

I don't hear "too intellectual" very often. It's usually "too lazy" or "wants to sin" or "was offended" or "very hateful." Saying we're too intellectual implies Mormons aren't very intellectual, except for when they cite the occasional really smart Mormon who is faithful to the church.

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Posted by: abby ( )
Date: March 04, 2019 08:57PM

I agree. That's the reasons I hear the most.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 04, 2019 09:03PM

One can never be too smart, too intellectual, for the church. The brilliant ones all stay.

That's what Packer meant when he bemoaned the influence of "pseudo-intellectuals," a sort of pretentious lowlife who can't compare with the church's geniuses.

Now an Ed.D. from BYU: THAT'S what you need to be a true mastermind.

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Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: March 04, 2019 09:05PM

Oh yeah, pseudo-intellectuals. Those are like Satan's false happiness, right?

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