Does that mean that Mother Russia will pay for their tickets?

yes, I hope they're OK.

btw, this 'muscle flexing' isn't an accident or coincidence from the former Soviet Union countries, N.Korea, or China

No, it's not. I just hope "the" church quits their stubbornness and closes down in Russia before some kids really get hurt. This would be a good time to take a hint.

But the church paid plenty of bribe money to build a temple in Russia didn't they??????

Seriously though I pray those gentlemen get plenty of counseling. Russian prisons are no where you want an innocent 18 year old fresh piece of meat to be.

Not much happens in Russia without a lot of palms being greased...

That's why I wonder if this was more of an example of what could happen if they don't get a little extra consideration.

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not much happens in Russia without a lot of palms
> being greased...


Not much different to the USA then.

I suggest a prisoner exchange. Pick two GAs to spend a couple of years in scenic Siberia.

For Utah RfM ppl:

any links to online or TV stories? I'm wanting to know how ChurchCo will spin this.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2019/03/07/state-department-aware/

It is interesting that the Russian authorities figured out that after teaching English for awhile, they started putting religious stuff in there. Oh, really? Are these "volunteers" fooling anyone over there?

The church has had notmissionaries "teaching English" in China since forever. I wonder if the Chinese government will tire of that trick and do what Russia did.

The answer is obviously "no." The Russian government has always known what the missionaries are doing and tolerated it, just as Israel tolerates the LDS "volunteers."

What has changed is government policy. Over the last several months Putin has decided to start picking fights with the US. Hence the announcement of the new armament systems, the intrusion into Venezuela, the passage of military vessels and airplanes into areas of American sensitivity, and the arrest of Paul Whelan. In fact, if you google "Russia arrests American spy," one of the stories that shows up on the first page is about the Mormon missionaries.

This is part of a strategy to sow discord within the US. The missionaries are just pawns.

I wonder if the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church had more to do with this than Putin. Sending a few mishies home doesn't really perturb the non-Mormon population of the US - but it does reduce a minor irritant to the Patriarch - who might be apprehensive about something minor growing larger. Maybe Patty whispered in Putey's ear? If Putey merely wants to ratchet up anti-Americanism, he could get better returns through other means. If he wants to curry favor with the Patriarch, then it makes more sense to send the "volunteers" home.

I don't think so.

Putin doesn't care a whit about religion other than the marginal appeasement of a marginal interest group. Moreover, if the Patriarch is upset about Mormons he would have wanted the entire lot expelled. Just sending two kids home is not really helpful. I'm pretty confident that nothing much will change now on either side.

As for this meaning nothing for bilateral relations, yes--and no. When a country wants to increase pressure on another, it uses a variety of means simultaneously. It is the sum product that is the objective. And Putin has done this before, when the US reneged on its commitments to keep Ukraine separate from NATO and when the US supported the political change in Ukraine under Obama.

Tactically, all Putin does is explicitly instruct the military to ratchet up the confrontational elements of the relationship (overflights, buzzing, intrusions, public announcement of armament projects that were already known about in Washington); and implicitly tell his interior ministry to create more rather than fewer conflicts. They are arresting the odd American businessman, too, just as China did in reaction to the Canadian arrest of the Huawei executive.

*** Admin note to "Sharon": Please pick one username and stick with it. While we allow anonymity (i.e. usernames that aren't your real name) we don't allow people to keep switching. Use only one. Thanks! -- CZ (admin) ***

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------
> What has changed is government policy. Over the
> last several months Putin has decided to start
> picking fights with the US. Hence the
> announcement of the new armament systems, the
> intrusion into Venezuela, the passage of military
> vessels and airplanes into areas of American
> sensitivity, and the arrest of Paul Whelan. In
> fact, if you google "Russia arrests American spy,"
> one of the stories that shows up on the first page
> is about the Mormon missionaries.
>
> This is part of a strategy to sow discord within
> the US. The missionaries are just pawns.

I think you'll find it's the other way round. Does Russia have bases surrounding the USA? No. Does the USA have bases surrounding Russia? Yes it does.

The USA decided to disrupt Venezuela because it wouldn't give them cheap oil. So the USA blocked Venezuela's access to its overseas investments and put sanctions on it, which have undermined the Venezuelan economy.

Don't believe a thing you hear on US news. It's all partisan. The USA controls the internet, not "Russian bots". Who owns Microsoft, IBM, Google, Facebook etc, all those major tech giants? Not the Russians. None of these companies have to pay much tax because they hand over personal info from around the world to the NSA and others.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2019 08:58AM by Concrete Zipper.

Sharon Harksdale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I think you'll find it's the other way round. Does
> Russia have bases surrounding the USA? No. Does
> the USA have bases surrounding Russia? Yes it
> does.

I never said the US doesn't have bases around Russia. What I am addressing is a short-term tactical change in Russian foreign policy, which is a different topic.


---------------
> The USA decided to disrupt Venezuela because it
> wouldn't give them cheap oil. So the USA blocked
> Venezuela's access to its overseas investments and
> put sanctions on it, which have undermined the
> Venezuelan economy.

Again, that's not relevant. Since I am describing the recent tactical change, the change that is now affecting Mormon missionaries, what matters is Moscow's new initiatives. The decision to insert itself into what had been an intra-American conflict is one of those new gambits.


-------------
> Don't believe a thing you hear on US news. It's
> all partisan.

What makes you think I get my news from US sources?


-------------
> The USA controls the internet, not
> "Russian bots". Who owns Microsoft, IBM, Google,
> Facebook etc, all those major tech giants? Not the
> Russians. None of these companies have to pay much
> tax because they hand over personal info from
> around the world to the NSA and others.

This seems a bit sloppy. Neither the US nor Russian bots "own" the internet, surely. As for who owns the big American tech giants, you think Russian institutions and individuals don't have significant stakes in US technology companies? You don't think Russian companies cooperate directly, or through their stakes in US tech companies, with the FSB?

Sharon Harksdale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> *** Admin note to "Sharon": Please pick one
> username and stick with it. While we allow
> anonymity (i.e. usernames that aren't your real
> name) we don't allow people to keep switching. Use
> only one. Thanks! -- CZ (admin) ***
>
> Lot's Wife Wrote:
> -------------------------------------
> > What has changed is government policy. Over
> the
> > last several months Putin has decided to start
> > picking fights with the US. Hence the
> > announcement of the new armament systems, the
> > intrusion into Venezuela, the passage of
> military
> > vessels and airplanes into areas of American
> > sensitivity, and the arrest of Paul Whelan. In
> > fact, if you google "Russia arrests American
> spy,"
> > one of the stories that shows up on the first
> page
> > is about the Mormon missionaries.
> >
> > This is part of a strategy to sow discord
> within
> > the US. The missionaries are just pawns.
>
> I think you'll find it's the other way round. Does
> Russia have bases surrounding the USA? No. Does
> the USA have bases surrounding Russia? Yes it
> does.
>
> The USA decided to disrupt Venezuela because it
> wouldn't give them cheap oil. So the USA blocked
> Venezuela's access to its overseas investments and
> put sanctions on it, which have undermined the
> Venezuelan economy.
>
> Don't believe a thing you hear on US news. It's
> all partisan. The USA controls the internet, not
> "Russian bots". Who owns Microsoft, IBM, Google,
> Facebook etc, all those major tech giants? Not the
> Russians. None of these companies have to pay much
> tax because they hand over personal info from
> around the world to the NSA and others.

There is a reason all the countries around Russia want U.S. bases. Russia has a long history of invading its neighbors. Since 1900, Russia and the Soviet Union have invaded, attacked, and occupied neighboring countries 55 times. They did it as recently as 2014. I worked for a Lithuanian company for a while, and spent some time in Vilnius. The Lithuanians hate the Russians, and are scared they will be invaded and occupied yet again. They want U.S. military presence.

I am not a huge fan of U.S. foreign policy and it throwing its military might around. But Russia has no right to complain about its neighbors seeking protection from them.

Although the idea of Communism comes from the New Testament idea of having all things in common, it never works.

The math does not work out ( even Karl Marx knew this ) and most people simply do not like being part of a faceless mass, they want individualism.

Even the Mormons could not make it work. I recall reading that one Mormon community broke apart because a young man wanted different blue jeans from the rest.

Utopia looks good on paper but cannot withstand reality. If anyone knows this, it's the Russians.

Why on earth does anyone think Russia would want LDS missionaries coming in and peddling an American version of that nonsense?

Moreover, the Russian Orthodox church has longstanding ties to the Greek Orthodox church.
In fact, the first university in Russia was founded by Greeks. We should not insult the Russians by sending them "English teachers" LOL

Karl Marx never even heard of communism and was long dead by 1917. It should make you wonder why he’s so heavily demonized. Communism is hardly the democratic socialism that Marx envisioned as an alternative to the problematic capitalism that arose after feudalism.

That’s not to say the socialist economies of the world are better than the capitalist ones. Capitalism seems to be better at economic warfare, but then there’s China. Here in the US, we create enemies as a means of doing business. The Cold War was great for business. The parasite killed its host (oops) and had to go find a new one. No problem, invent new enemies.

Collectivism didn’t work in Mormonism because men were stealing other men’s wives. Polygamy killed it, as you would expect of any system that’s not an autocracy.

You are mistaken.

Karl Marx published The Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital - which are the basics for all left-leaning politics.

Not true.

Socialism and communism go back millennia. There was a surge in secular socialism and communism in the early 19th century, and Marx and Engels were just prominent examples of that wave of thinking.

It is incorrect to trace it all back to Marx since he was working in a broad stream of theorizing. Besides religious communism, which arose in early Christianity, in Christian monasteries, in Buddhist communities, etc., the secular strains included anarcho-communism, anarchosyndicalism, and various other forms of leftist ideology. The distinction matters because there are all sorts of liberal or progressive systems of thought that arose and continue independently of those experiments that failed so starkly in the 20th century.

Maybe the "volunteers" will be recycled as "plumbers":


"Comrade, we're plumbers from Utah - can we fix your plumbing? Shall we have a prayer first?"

Russians are very nationalistic and they want their own religion and traditions. Mormonism is not wanted there; especially with US/Russian relations where they are.

From a March 7 ... "a judge upheld the decision to expel ONE of the two US citizens from Russia."

ONE?? ONE of the two?


http://tass.com/society/1047896


Does anyone have current or more accurate information?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2019 06:12PM by kathleen.

You mean the volunteers ruse didn't work.

It would be. SERIOUS VIOLATION of missionary rules to separate a pair of missionaries, surely the Ruskies wouldn't want to be aiding/ responsible for that!

If you LIE about your true purpose you will be lucky to get out alive!

Anyone know anything? Last reports I've read are five days old.

Check another board on this topic. I'd say more but you know how it goes.

Regarding 'another board', I bet if someone went looking they'd see something like this:


"A very disturbing update (below) from one of the missionaries in the Mormon Rostov-na-Donu Russia mission. A few things he reports: 1) the two Elders who were imprisoned last week remain in prison, 2) "things seem to be getting a little worse," 3) the South is "a little dangerous," 4) these missionaries were emergency-evacuated and relocated because Russian police are apparently searching missionary apartments, 5) Mormon missionaries in the area have been asked to "[destroy] all the missions 20 past years of area books," and 6) the relocated missionaries are being required to sleep "on the the floors with our scarfs and jackets as blankets haha."

"WTFreak?!?!?! Why are Mormon missionaries in Russia being asked by mission leaders to destroy 20 past years of area books?!?!?! Why are Mormon missionaries sleeping on floors, in the cold, with no blankets? Where is the mission president? Most importantly, where is the support from LDS church headquarters when missionaries are in danger, when we know that the Mormon church has a net worth of several hundred billion dollars?

"Please share this information with families of Mormon missionaries - especially in Russia. Please encourage these families to express their concern to church headquarters.

"The Mormon church HAS to do a better job of protecting and caring for its missionaries. And the only way to instigate change in this church is to shine a spotlight on the problems in the media. Then the "revelation" soon follows.

"And if these missionaries get in trouble for being open/honest about their dangerous situation, and/or if Mormon missionaries continue to be told to NOT be open/honest in their emails home to family about their safety conditions, I will become very upset.

"Thank you for your help in spreading the word."



If you did see something like this, would you believe it? The world is a strange place!

"Please encourage these families to express their concern to church headquarters."


What? See this is the Mormon thinking. Express concern? How about demanding the damn Gerontocracy do something. How about their wimpy Jehovah/Elohim/ Heavenly Father do something?


How does a parent not get on the phone, get on a plane or something and get their kid the hell out of there? Well they don't because they have FAAAIIIIITHHHHHHH in their beloved leaders and their LOVING and KIND Heavenly Father.

And then when their kid dies they can stand as martyrs and say, "Heavenly Father needed him on the other side of the veil more than we needed him here."

EXPRESS CONCERN?!:?!!???!!!

Jesus is in charge. Nothing bad can happen, or at least nothing bad from an eternal perspective. Life on earth is a mere blink of an eye. There's so much MORE waiting for all of us; don't go rocking the boat and making people feel bad.

Yes. Of course you are right. Thank you for bringing sensibility and rationality back to the table.

What was I thinking. Of course Jesus is taking the wheel!

Church leadership is looking more and more like Jim Jones.

Meanwhile, the Q15 and their wives and entourage take a first class junket to Rome to visit the Pope. I hope they bought postcards.

Distant inlaws sent their buxom, blond daughter on mission to Equador.

One night, while riding a bus with other missionaries, she woke up with a gun to her head. Four masked men robbed them all. But SHEEEEE had cleverly put her backpack in stowage.

All I could hear from those parents was, "Ohhhhhh, thank God those four gunmen didn't get her backpack !!”

The missionary/volunteer has a double whammy—a cult that has no problem putting them in harm’s way and parents who go along with it. It’s truly like throwing children into a cauldron to appease the gods.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/2019 07:14AM by kathleen.

I would say that was horrifying, and that what the parents said was shameful and disgusting, but I have seen the light. rocomop is right. It's all part of Jesus plan--even the gun to the head.

Heavenly Father works in mysterious* ways.

*Difficult to explain, understand, or identify. It's like he's not even there he's so deft. He may be too busy making sure others feel his presence and know he is always there for them when they want to feel that as they sit in their safe, warm, cozy homes. Because that's what really counts--not some gun to the head or some kid in a Putin Prison.

Been talking with a young man who came home a bit early from his mission in Russia for mental health reasons. After hearing about his experiences, I would have mental health issues as well. Guns pointed at him. Police breaking into apartment. Being accosted frequently by gangs. Missionaries getting beaten up. Sounds like the wild west.

robinsaintcloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Police breaking into apartment.
> Being accosted frequently by gangs. Missionaries
> getting beaten up. Sounds like the wild west.

Putin's Partners!

But HEY! Putin is Trump's buddy, these events are merely collateral damage...

sorry, guys, We're 'really' sorry :(

I have a friend who went to Russia to start up a technology business. He was approached by the mob for money and beaten for not providing it; then by the police, beaten for not handing it over; then by the FSB, with the same outcome. He went through several iterations of this process, then sold out and went home.

He actually used the Wild West analogy. When he went to Russia, he thought it was a wide open territory where one could build his own fortune and make a difference in how society evolves. When he came back, he'd concluded that the Wild West was a much more dangerous and less free place than it seems in Westerns.

Trump is a thug and a gangster. People who are loyal to him are free to act pretty much as they want with regard to the economy and their personal enemies.

I still wanna know if the Ruskies paid the travel expenses of the expelled missionary / missionaries to return home/out of Russia.