https://www.foxnews.com/world/witnesses-say-many-dead-injured-in-shooting-at-new-zealand-mosque

A man has burst into a mosque and opened fire on people attending Friday worship.

Horrific.

As usual the reporting is superficial and sparse.

It's too easy to get things wrong with such a major event. There is one report that an armed congregant shot back and sent two attackers fleeing. We'll see if that's true.

Weird that the Las Vegas shooter (Paddock) investigation was closed down without any determination of motive.

It would be better to have an explicit statement of motive, but as you know a court can infer that from actions. If a malefactor chooses not to communicate, that's all that can be done.

Yet it is the investigators' responsibility to determine who the shooter(s) is(are), how firearms were obtained, whether there were security lapses such as illegal access to weapons, all that stuff.

The Vegas shooting was convoluted, with conflicting timelines, significant contradictions in eyewitness accounts, and major gaps in the fact pattern, resulting in a plethora of alternative narratives.

First, fast look at the NZ shooters 71-page manifesto (damnifesto?) ("explicit statement of motive") suggests that every side of the political divide will have lots of ammunition (gruesome pun intended) for everybody to scream, "He's not one of ours--he's from your side!"

Which has already been done.

Insanity is difficult to understand rationally. Sometimes normal people spend too much time trying to come to terms with that which does not function normally.

Yes, that's what's scary... There are parts of his manifesto I agree with. Amazing how someone can have such a mixture of good and bad ideas.

I suggest not compartmentalizing. This person is using the same logic to arrive at the things that you disagree with as the things that you agree with. This should cause introspection, not tacit agreement.

Why shouldn't I compartmentalise? His manifesto talks about worker's rights, environmentalism, responsible markets and (without irony) anti-imperialism!

It *IS* possible to back all of these (basic) ideas without believing in his elaboration of them, and the other things he links with them.

In fact, anti-imperialism is the polar opposite of what he's done.

"symbol of white identity"

It was a hate crime plain and simple.

Does New Zealand have capital punishment?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2019 11:24AM by Amyjo.

Re-education camps in China

Ethnically cleansed in Myanmar

Daily torture & slaughter of the Palestinian people

Rampant Islamophobia in Western Mainstream Media

The vilification of Rep. Ilhan Omar, officially and in the media

Anders Behring Breivik

Now Brenton Tarrant

Etc etc etc

Making excuses for Islamophobes and/or pretending Islamophobia isn’t a rampant problem in our culture emboldens those who are ready to murder on behalf of their hatreds.

(And please, spare us the juvenile idiocy that pretends semantics about race, ethnicity and religion are apropos here. It is not. It’s just stupid. We all know what Islamophobia is.)

Human

And the main murderer in NZ explicitly endorsed several of the ideas you adumbrate. He praised China, criticized Islam in Europe, cited American Islamaphobes, and acted in accordance with NRA advertisements.

This was a sick man who imported the worst of several different white cultures in order to gain some personal attention. Another example of the banality of evil. You can search for some profound thought or motivation and it simply is not there. All you'll find is a pathetic, bitter little person who wanted to be important.

It frightens me, literally, that a mass murderer of children, about the most cowardly thing a person can do, Anders Behring Breivik, is seen as some kind of hero by too many broken white men.

But that Jeanine Pirro could go on a stupid, hateful rant about, of all things, a modest scarf, a scarf, and many buying into the rant, frightens me more, because it means more Breiviks are to come. And i’ll Just leave alone the vile posters and death threats to Rep. Ilhan Omar, a hero who dared speak truth to power, etc.

Yup

The shooter sounds very rational to me. Great lengths went into the planning and implementation of the attacks on New Zealand soil.

"The author said he had been planning the attack for two years and moved from Australia to New Zealand to plan and train. Though New Zealand was not the original target for the assault, he said he chose it because of its image as one of the safest countries in the world."

Nbcnews.com

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The shooter sounds very rational to me. Great
> lengths went into the planning and implementation
> of the attacks on New Zealand soil.
>
> "The author said he had been planning the attack
> for two years and moved from Australia to New
> Zealand to plan and train. Though New Zealand was
> not the original target for the assault, he said
> he chose it because of its image as one of the
> safest countries in the world."
>
> Nbcnews.com

I thought it was a New Zealand local who was tired of everyone moving there and hated immigrants and especially Muslims but looks like it was an Aussie transplant out to make a statement.

It's impossible to determine why these people do what they do but there always have been such people and there has always been killing. It's always going on in parts of the world. It just doesn't happen at that level in New Zealand a lot.

People will talk about it until it's forgotten in the public mind and then it will happen again somewhere else. It never ends.

He's lived in NZ for a decade, which is a not inconsiderable amount of time. He's not a tourist...

There is an odd relationship between Australia and NZ, sort of like Can & USA. They are frequently confused with each other by outsiders. Ironically this will fuel anti-Aussie sentiment in NZ.

The idea that NZ is entirely peaceful is wrong. They do have race problems - Maori (native NZers) vs others, and have had problems with biker gangs. A lot of Maoris have become Muslim, a bit like African Americans.

It's sad when such things happen. I especially feel sad for the families who lost loved ones. Of course the wacko shooter according to what he wrote is hoping what he did will plot people against each other and result in more violence. The media does not help in the matter nor do the politicians.

Always glad to see people remaining level headed when such things happen and not falling into the trap of blaming groups of people over what one or a few idiots chose to do themselves.

I'm just disappointed the shooter didn't kill himself.

That psychiatrist who killed the people at the army base, and the Colorado theatre shooter, and this guy, like all the others serving 'life' will have privileges such as letters, and visitors, and receive packages with treats sent in from outside, televisions allowed in rooms in many prisons...he will live a long safe life on the taxpayer's dime while those he killed...will not.

Capital punishment was abolished in New Zealand in 1989.

He'll most likely be kept in solitary confinement for his own safety. He'll be a pariah on the totem pole, in a place like New Zealand. A life sentence I agree is way too kind for a vicious animal on the taxpayer dime.

"The Australian-born suspect who shot dead dozens of Mulim worshippers in Christchurch, New Zealand, has published a manifesto citing US President Donald Trump and Anders Breivik, the Norwegian white supremacist who murdered 77 people in Norway in 2011.

The 74-page dossier by Brenton Tarrant, which has been described by Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison as a "work of hate", praised Trump as "a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose". "

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The 74-page dossier ... praised Trump...

If you're going to quote the manifesto, might want to read the entire thing, not just the bit the media excerpted. In fact he doesn't support Trump's policies, here is the exact quote:

Were/are you a supporter of Donald Trump?
As a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose? Sure. As a policy maker and leader? Dear god no.

I think you just made Dave's point.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think you just made Dave's point.

:) :) :)

It was interesting to read as the writer flipped back and forth between fairly sane comments and totally insane. Aside from preventing him access to the guns and putting him in locked mental ward don't know of any other way to stop those like this.

I do think media pulling 2 sentences about Trump from 74 single spaced pages is a little unfair.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2019 09:54PM by mel.

There is no need to read or quote an entire screed if one wants to know about a particular topic. If one wants to understand what Mark Twain thought of Mormons, reading what he said about them is the right way to go; there is no reason to read everything else in his ouvre.

The murderer said what he thought. We can take him at his word.

Horrible.

At some point, after the world has digested this tragedy, and unfortunately forgotten it. Our society must examine the reasons for this type of action. Access to weapons that can do this type of damage. Acceptance of hate speech because of superficial similarities to our (collective our) own beliefs. A culture that empowers violence by glorifying it. Ignorance of mental health. And dozens of other things that we (collective we) turn a blind eye to on a daily basis.

My snap response doesn't much touch on the fact that there is someone ill enough to see this as an act of morality. My snap response is that this extremity is a manifestation of a deeper problem. Mormonism sweeps their extremes under the rug on a daily basis. Giving hatred and bigotry a moral backdrop that leads good people to hate good people. It just pisses me off.

jacob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Horrible.
>
> At some point, after the world has digested this
> tragedy, and unfortunately forgotten it. Our
> society must examine the reasons for this type of
> action. Access to weapons that can do this type of
> damage. Acceptance of hate speech because of
> superficial similarities to our (collective our)
> own beliefs. A culture that empowers violence by
> glorifying it. Ignorance of mental health. And
> dozens of other things that we (collective we)
> turn a blind eye to on a daily basis.
>
> My snap response doesn't much touch on the fact
> that there is someone ill enough to see this as an
> act of morality. My snap response is that this
> extremity is a manifestation of a deeper problem.
> Mormonism sweeps their extremes under the rug on a
> daily basis. Giving hatred and bigotry a moral
> backdrop that leads good people to hate good
> people. It just pisses me off.

It's been going on since human beings have been on the planet. There is no magical fix for it. We can't even run a health care and educational system right. Go spend some time in a war zone like I did and you will just get a jaded view of the world and just accept it because the pile of doo doo is too big and society is too dysfunctional to do anything about it.

Rubicon Wrote:

> ...just accept it because the pile of doo doo is too big and society is too dysfunctional to do anything about it.

I for one refuse to accept it, and will take my small shovel in one small corner of the world, one small pile at a time. Think globally, act locally!

:) :) :)

mel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rubicon Wrote:
>
> > ...just accept it because the pile of doo doo is
> too big and society is too dysfunctional to do
> anything about it.
>
> I for one refuse to accept it, and will take my
> small shovel in one small corner of the world, one
> small pile at a time. Think globally, act locally!
>
>
> :) :) :)

That's about all you can do. The reality is there is always going to be evil out there. That will never go away. There will always be people plotting one group after another and politicians starting wars so their sponsors can make money from the war contracts.

Hate to say it but we have learned nothing from history. We didn't even learn anything from Vietnam. So like George Carlin said, divorce yourself from it and enjoy what you have because it ain't getting any better and nobody is going to fix anything because the pile of dung is too big.

But you still can feel good doing what you can with your little shovel. ;D

Rubicon wrote:

> But you still can feel good doing what you can with your little shovel. ;D

Thanks Rubicon. And btw I do agree with your assessments, but I also still try to remain hopeful. If not too nosy, which conflicts did you spend time in?

Thanks in advance for anything you care to share. :)

Society is more functional today than it was 100 years ago. That is a trend that can be followed for centuries. I don't fear for the future of our society because it has proven to me that it has the ability to improve.

I disagree with that.

Society has progressed more or less linearly (or rather exponentially) in economic and technological terms for many centuries. The same is not true of politics and morality.

The 20th century was far more sanguinary than the 19th and even the 18th on a global basis. The World Wars gave the lie to the notion of human progress, an article of faith from at least the Enlightenment era.

What happens all too frequently nowadays, and was evident most recently in NZ, is the manifestation of unimproved human sanity and morality combined with progress in the fields of weaponry and communications.

There is no guarantee that the future will be better than the past.

I accept your comment.

Past performance and future results after all.

I'll simply qualify my acceptance by giving my personal anecdote. I'm an atheist, divorced father, with custody of my children, two of which are gay, something must have changed in society.

Jacob,

Let me express my respect for what you have done. I've seen men step up and be both mother and father before; I have a friend like you, his children laughingly insist on giving him breakfast in bed on mother's day. And it takes true character (although you don't need anyone to tell you this) to rear children as they are.

I tell my children that the world is in many ways better today than in centuries, the reference being to precisely what you suggest: mothers free to be fathers, fathers to be mothers; and gays to be gay. For people like us at this time and in these places, life is better than in many generations and perhaps ever.

The problem, the worry, is that progress is reversible. Democracies, to take an example, frequently tire of the politics of compromise and rise up, gleefully throwing their freedoms on the bonfire of tyranny. Even as society welcomes people like you and, by extension, people like me, we see the old reactionary impulse all around us.

We just have to hope it is two steps forward, one step back rather than one step forward, two steps back.

jacob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm an atheist, divorced father, with custody of my children, two of which are gay...

Yes, Jacob, good for you for stepping up for your children. I'm sure it hasn't been easy going it alone. Hugs. :) :) :)

jacob Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > I'm an atheist, divorced father, with custody

Jacob, should you ever wish to share any of your experiences of getting out of TSSC, why you are raising your children alone, I’m sure it would be a very interesting new topic on the message board. I’m sure you have some valuable insights!

-Melanie

jacob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Access to weapons....

Yes. Australia effectively banned firearms after one mass shooting of 50-some people as I recall, and it has worked well in that country to stop further mass shootings. Don't know what policies New Zealand has, but I imagine they might change.

NZ PM just said, "our gun laws will change."

Any guns found at the mosque? I thought I saw a story of assault rifles the mosque folks had but I can't find it now.
It went into the internet search engine filter blackhole.

This really isn't anything new. May be new in New Zealand. Crap like this happens often in the world and goes un-reported.

Here comes the anti-gun cheerleaders with talking points over the next few weeks.




Remember in 2010. 55 dead at the mosque.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-11702547/55-dead-as-suicide-bomber-strikes-pakistan-mosque

"This really isn't anything new. May be new in New Zealand. Crap like this happens often in the world and goes un-reported."

Are you asserting that it happens at the same frequency everywhere? Because Australia and New Zealand belie that assertion.

Lot's Wife Wrote:

> Are you asserting that it happens at the same frequency everywhere?

I wondered whether there has been an increase in mass shootings. According to the RAND Corporation study:

"While different choices about how to define a mass shooting and the period over which to calculate mass shooting trends have resulted in disagreement about whether the frequency of mass shootings has risen, there is clear evidence that the media’s use of the term mass shooting has increased significantly over recent decades (Roeder, 2016).

So, whether its increasing is difficult to tell, interesting article: https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/supplementary/mass-shootings.html

You answer a slightly different question. That is, has the rate of mass shootings been increasing over time.

Also worth noting is that the data series on which your article depends ends in 2013. Much has happened since then.

The point I was raising, however, is not whether gun violence is rising relatively but rather how it stacks up absolutely when compared to other countries with US levels of wealth and education. Put differently, do different levels of gun ownership imply different levels of gun violence.

The evidence on that point is compelling.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You answer a slightly different question.

Yes.
My quick search didn’t show any country comparison, sorry! it was all just US data. Didn’t spend much time on it I admit.

And I know from working in an extremely high violent crime city, that as soon as the FBI stats came out ranking us near the top in violence the police department immediately reclassified all violence they could into lesser crimes to try to hide it.

Big stuff like these mass murders can’t be hidden but a huge amount of crime is probably never entered into these counts, if other places are like my city.

Phazer Wrote:

> Here comes the anti-gun cheerleaders

Probably, controlling guns seems like the low-hanging fruit of this gun deaths violence compared to definitely determining sanity before allowing the purchase.

I live in an open-carry state, no permit required, anyone can walk around anywhere with a sidearm. And they do.

"An armed society is a polite society" I always just hope I don't jostle someone inadvertently!

Whether it's guns, bombs, knives,the outcome of deaths and injury have been happening all over. The gun stories get the most press / news cycles bc these attacks on 2nd amendment have been going on for decades.

You can probly find a mosque bombing or people dying in these countries due to evil people every year.

More of the same

Yup. More of the same if one insists on not looking at the data.

But then we are talking not about the Second Amendment but rather the First: the right to believe any nonsense one wants regardless of facts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2019 12:12AM by Lot's Wife.

In contemporary times, Jews and Muslims tend to react with a high degree of empathetic "viscerality" when either group is lethally targeted, because both groups are hated by the same people.

Six months ago it was Jews attending services at Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh.

Today it is Muslims at a mosque in New Zealand.

In sorrow, and in solidarity, I join with my Jewish and Muslim extended families worldwide as I say:

Baruch dayan ha'emet ("Blessed be the true judge").

It's bizarre. The three religions are so closely related, sharing much more than divides them.

People are always looking for reasons to hate.

From the CBC:

"Vancouverites are reacting with shock and sadness to the New Zealand mosque shootings.

"Speaking in Kelowna, Minister of Public Safety Ralph Goodale said Canada's threat level remained unchanged.

"Canada stands with Muslim communities here at home, in New Zealand and across the world. Hatred, violence and right-wing extremism have no place in any society," he tweeted."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/new-zealand-terrorist-attack-vancouver-muslims-1.5058032


I’m going to visit my Syrian neighbours tonight. Taking a big bunch of sunny daffodils. A tiny gesture. They have 3-yr old twins. A couple of tots (among dozens of other victims) lie in hospital severely wounded by the terrorist as we speak. Cannot imagine…

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I’m going to visit my Syrian neighbours tonight.
> Taking a big bunch of sunny daffodils. A tiny
> gesture. They have 3-yr old twins. A couple of
> tots (among dozens of other victims) lie in
> hospital severely wounded by the terrorist as we
> speak. Cannot imagine…

Taking daffodils to your Syrian neighbors is a wonderful thing to do, Nightingale.

It will go a long way towards reassuring them that they belong, and are cared for.

Thank you. :)

I agree with Tevai; that’s a nice gesture . Itll open up dialogue. I was watching the 5th Avenue synagogue on line. I love their Rabbi and Cantor. The Rabbi talked about the NZ shooting, talked about reaching out to any Muslims they may know and told how the Muslim community sent them a lot of support after the Pittsburgh shooting

Still not as bloody and vitriolic as Muslim-on-Muslim (Shiite-Sunni etc.) attacks have been in predominantly Muslim countries.


"The May 2010 Lahore attacks also referred as Lahore Massacre occurred on May 28, 2010, in Lahore, Punjab, Pakistan, during Friday prayers. 94 people were killed and more than 120 were injured in nearly simultaneous attacks against two mosques of the minority Ahmadiyya Community. After the initial attack, a hostage situation lasted for hours. Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan, as well as their Punjab wing, claimed responsibility for the attacks and were also blamed by the Pakistani Police.

"On 5 July 2010, Pakistani police arrested six men, members of the banned group Harkat-ul-Jihad al-Islami, believed to be linked to the attack. The men were in possession of 18,000 kg of explosives, 21 grenades, six AK-47 rifles, as well as bomb-making material, and four of the men are alleged to have been logistical supporters to the attack."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Ahmadiyya_mosques_massacre

I abhor the NZ shooting and the white supremacist murder of unarmed civilians. It is a tragedy and once again an AR-15 type assault rifle has been used to inflict these huge death tolls.

That being said though, and continuing xxmo’s posting above, remembering 3 recent attacks by immigrants on Americans, San Bernardino California Muslim slaughter of innocent coworkers; Boston marathon bombing by immigrants of racers and onlookers, and slaughter of 50 gays at a nightclub in Florida by immigrant. Not to mention the big one: 9/11.

I’m just making a point—there are murderers in every religion and race. Don’t pile on with white guilt. Whites are also victims at times, by immigrants, foreigners or by other white men (Las Vegas; Oklahoma City).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2019 12:46PM by mel.

I think that it can sometimes be very difficult for a diverse people to get along with each other -- more difficult than is often acknowledged. It all relates back to a fear of the "other," and this fear can range from simple discomfort to mistrust and all the way to hate on the extreme end of the scale. And as you point out, the fears are sometimes grounded in actual events.

It doesn't help that when religious majorities form, the religions try to take over the political arena. We've seen this with the Mormon church in Utah and during the Prop 8 fiasco, and with the RCC in Ireland, Brazil, and likely other places as well.

I don't think that humans, being human, will likely ever fully eradicate the fear and mistrust. So IMO the solution will have to lie in changing the gun laws to get rid of automatic and semi-automatic weapons, and to tighten up screening for gun licenses. In the U.S. in particular, this will be a long hill to climb.

I agree.

I've wondered what, exactly, makes someone "other" in these cases.
Is it just the skin color?
Is it just the fact they were immigrants?
The religion?
The history?
The culture?
The language spoken?

I think a combination of these must be what triggers someone's "other" reaction. Maybe it is even more biological. Survival has depended on getting and keeping resources. It's a tribal drive to stay in and dominate the gene pool.

Humans are animals after all. Society is too dysfunctional to overcome it.

I don't think people are expressing "white guilt." They are simply quoting what the man said and wrote and thought. The guilt is "white supremacist guilt," which has nothing to do with white people generally.