Can we talk about this gem from Rubicon?

Rubicon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I basically shot a big cannon over the church's
> bow. Haha! Anyways you are right. You aren't
> legally a member of anything. I got baptized at
> eight years old. Even if I signed a contract it
> would not be legally binding because I was a
> minor. You really are out of the church when YOU
> decide you are out and the church has no say in
> the matter. If they harass you then you can
> legally stop that if you wish.


Why have any of us (besides harassment cases) regarded our membership as a serious, if not legal contract?

Why don't we bring this fact to our TBM family members and educate them that they are NOT a member? Never were? Never could be unless they sign a legally valid contract?

Why has any of this been regarded as 'membership' when in fact, it does not exist?

I made no legal commitment. My parents told me I was a member and that was that. But it doesn't mean it's legally binding.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2019 04:07AM by Cheryl.

I never thought of my membership as a legal contract. I resigned as a statement to them that I reject their teachings. Nothing more.

Also, from the Mormon doctrine perspective, it's also not a legal contract, but a covenant, which is different.

What if you try to enforce this point of view and they send people to repo Holy McGhost?


Los mormones claim authority over their members and when the members agree with the premise, it works for the church, to the point that legal action often becomes necessary...or garden hoses, in order to get them to leave you alone, such is their hubris.

Community sanctions help the process when mormons are a visible, or seeming majority.

TBMs are going to twirl an index finger pointed at their temples (their heads, not SLC), if you try to insist they aren't really members.

elderolddog Wrote:
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> TBMs are going to twirl an index finger pointed at
> their temples (their heads, not SLC), if you try
> to insist they aren't really members.

And we give two shits about this because?

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What if you try to enforce this point of view and
> they send people to repo Holy McGhost?


What? To use the language of the oppressor is to comply with the same.

Enforce? Please. I am asking a legitimate question launched by the brilliant insight of Rubicon.

We make REAL the church. And it's effects on our emotions. Beliefs.

If liberty is what we encourage, grasp for ourselves and celebrate in others, then recognize the absurdity of 'membership' for the imaginary, self-subscription that it is.

I'm not oppressed, I'm just silly. But I think I did report accurately.

But if membership is fake, which it is,

Why do we continue to apply real actions, such as a letter, to fake standings?

We signed no contract. We signed no letter (to become a member).

Why, then, submit a real letter addressing an imaginary status?

Many of agree with you and won't be 'resigning'.

carameldreams Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But if membership is fake, which it is,
>
> Why do we continue to apply real actions, such as
> a letter, to fake standings?
>
> We signed no contract. We signed no letter (to
> become a member).
>
> Why, then, submit a real letter addressing an
> imaginary status?

For many, it stops those who were once called home teachers and visiting teachers from contacting you.

If one is no longer a member, they are not assigned these people.

This has supposedly changed now into something called ministering, whatever that is.

There are also those who have families who are TBM. I understand you see it as simple, but for many, it can become complicated.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2019 07:29PM by angela.

angela Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> There are also those who have families who are
> TBM. I understand you see it as simple, but for
> many, it can become complicated.

I am one who has family who is TBM. That fact does not complicate truth.

Part of the problem with being brainwashed in a cult is this complication when things are straight forward. They taught us that it is 'complicated'. We believed them.

And frankly, for those who follow the words of Jesus in the Bible, things are simple.

It is always those who have an agenda who say, 'Oh, you wouldn't understand' and 'it's complicated'.

Excuses.

carameldreams Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> angela Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > There are also those who have families who are
> > TBM. I understand you see it as simple, but
> for
> > many, it can become complicated.
>
> I am one who has family who is TBM. That fact
> does not complicate truth.
>
> Part of the problem with being brainwashed in a
> cult is this complication when things are straight
> forward. They taught us that it is 'complicated'.
> We believed them.
>
> And frankly, for those who follow the words of
> Jesus in the Bible, things are simple.
>
> It is always those who have an agenda who say,
> 'Oh, you wouldn't understand' and 'it's
> complicated'.
>
> Excuses.

That is black and white thinking, which is very cultish in and of itself. Very Mormon

angela Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> For many, it stops those who were once called home
> teachers and visiting teachers from contacting
> you.
>
> If one is no longer a member, they are not
> assigned these people.

That's not the experience of many people

And, there are other methods than hosing.

We are capable of using our words, as we tell children. Are these VTs and HTs and ministers threatening our lives? No.

We signed up for this religion and we agreed to follow the rules. We were on the inside and knew that by repeatedly visiting doubting members or outright apostates, we were doing the will of God and were very likely to bring them back in the fold.

When we are on the other side of what we did to others, well, endure to the end. We made plenty of people uncomfortable and had our share of awkward, especially those of us who were missionaries and 'every member a missionary'.

I wrestled with this dilemma of whether to resign or not resign because I knew it was nothing but a bunch of hooey, hot air, and as you say, no legal contract.

But, I detested the MormonCult to the bottom of my arthritic toes, and it was damn important to me to just send these pricks a letter saying "Take me off your roles now!" Plus, I wanted to tell my TBM family members and friends that this was my choice if the opportunity presented itself.

My truth is mine only. We are all different, thank god, and what works for one, is strange to another.

In terms of ridiculous legal analysis, this is right up there with the tax protestors who claim they don't owe any income taxes, because they are paid in Federal Reserve Notes, which are not real money, so they had no real income to pay taxes on.

Courts have found the "I have no income" argument very unpersuasive. They would find the "I am not a member, because I was a minor unable to enter into contracts" equally unpersuasive, if anybody even tried to make that argument in court. To my knowledge, nobody has even tried to make that argument in court.

OK, here's the deal. Children cannot legally enter into a binding contract. I don't know if a church membership application technically constitutes a contract or not (I suspect it is some form of contract), but the technicalities really don't matter.

A child can't join a church on their own, but a parent or guardian can give permission for them to join. That is perfectly legal. That membership is valid and would be recognized by the courts.

I doubt that a child can resign their membership without a parent or guardian approval, but I really don't know about that. I have never heard here of a minor trying to resign against their parents' wishes.

Once the child turns 18, the membership authorized by the parent or guardian remains in effect. However, now the child has adult status, and they can resign their membership on their own any time they want to.


The more fundamental question is why do people do this fake "legal analysis" to "prove" they don't have to resign? No, nobody has to resign, but there is a name for people who are baptized into the church, and refuse to resign, and that name is "a member of the Mormon Church" (or the. currently approved long name)

It takes about 5 minutes to fill in the info on the form at www.exmormon.org/remove and email it off to the church, less time than it would take to read this thread. You don't get brownie points for refusing to resign. You are not "sticking it to the man". Unless you happen to be a real pain in the butt, but not enough of one to excommunicate, they are perfectly happy to keep you on the rolls as an inactive member. In fact, they prefer that.


Resigning is not "a hoop the church makes you jump through". It is a hoop that was imposed on the church. They have to process your resignation. The only hoop you have to jump through is you have to tell the church you are resigning, and that is not their "hoop". It is a requirement imposed by the US legal system.

Good analysis, Bother of Jerry. It used to be the only way to become a nonmember was to be excommunicated- the Mormon church had all the power. Now the power is yours to resign, so take back your power and resign! Since the church really is so legalistic with so many rules for who is “worthy”, it really does make sense to resign on your own terms. I think it sends a clear message to the church in the language they understand. I was also born into the church and had no choice whether to join or not. I used to think it didn’t matter one way or another whether I resigned or not, since it was all false, anyway. But then when they came out with the 2015 anti-gay policy, I wanted to make it clear to them in no uncertain terms that I no longer wanted to be considered a member of the Mormon church. Even though I’d been totally inactive for forty years, they could still count me on their rolls. Use the power you have to resign, because otherwise, they can still claim you as a member. Like Angela said, it may not be a legal contract, but resigning is a statement to them that you reject their false teachings.

My only regret about resigning when I did (2005-ish, don't remember exactly) is that I didn't get to resign when they promoted and helped pass CA Prop 8 in 2008, and again when the anti-gay policy in 2015 came out.

BTW, I think there are plenty of legitimate reasons not to resign - family pressure, fear your kids will be ostracized, business reasons... What drives me up a wall is when people make up these BS reasons for not resigning - "I'm not resigning because I'm not actually a member."

Yeah, right. The real question is why do people feel it necessary to come up with a BS excuse for why they won't resign. Having to lie to yourself is never a good omen.

Wrong placement



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2019 11:35PM by Brother Of Jerry.

>>Resigning is not "a hoop the church makes you jump through". It is a hoop that was imposed on the church. They have to process your resignation. The only hoop you have to jump through is you have to tell the church you are resigning, and that is not their "hoop". It is a requirement imposed by the US legal system.

I never had to resign as a Catholic because they won't come after you. They won't trace you, or call you, or knock on your door. If a Catholic moves, the member must take it upon him- or herself to
register at the new parish, otherwise no one will know that they are there.

Resigning from the Mormon church should not be necessary, but the church's often relentless harassment makes it so.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2019 02:32AM by summer.

I resigned. The situation is that they still tried to send me ministers recently and I have resigned many years ago now. The last bishop (a friend) told me he wasn't going to tell anyone I resigned. Well, the new bishop DIDN'T KNOW. Go figure??? he told me he would stop people from bugging me. Still got the invite to the RS dinner. I don't want to offend the neighbor, but I'm offended myself.

I mean I must be f'ing lazy or an idiot and so I need help to come back to "the light" (as one jerk put it).

I resigned to make a point to my daughter. For me, it helped me a lot, but that is just me. It was a shock to me that it didn't bother me and actually helped me. BUT again, each person reacts differently to leaving and resigning, etc. My feeling is whatever works for you is what you should do.

And I can be in the worst mood and come here and read something some of you guys write and you brighten my day. Thank you!!!

I've been working on my new job and it is always not fun to learn a new program and a new account, etc., and I'm still doing 2 other jobs, so I'm pretty worn out. I don't work Sam's the rest of this week, so that will help. Once I get up to speed with this job, Sam's will be 1 day a week (just for some benefits from working there like a free membership and clearaNCE).

LOL. You're in an endless hall of mirrors with the Mormons. I can understand them assuming you're still a member. Your ward and immediate neighborhood are one and the same, you've been living there and in the ward for years, your virtual-ex is still a member (if I recall correctly), your daughter is active.

You should ask your bishop if you are on the official ward roster. You should not be, but it might be worth asking him to double check. Maybe someone thought you not being on the roster was a mistake and they put you back on. I don't see how that could happen, but the human capacity to screw things up is infinite. I think it more likely that nobody checked the roster. They just assumed you were a member and assigned you a "Home Minister". Their bad.

Have you ever considered moving to, oh, say Pittsburgh? That would cure your Mormon problem. ;)

A big part of the deal/problem is wanting to not be "on their list" and not being recorded in their files or computers as a "member" whatever that entails. Also to not get bothered by mailings or visits and so forth if that's an issue for some.

Now whether or not they ACTUALLY remove your name from their files or just put a notation in the file that you are no longer a member, I don't know. No way to prove exactly what they do with resignation requests short of actually having access to their computers or hearing from someone who formerly worked in the record-keeping department. I'm referring to headquarters level, not local ward level stuff, which can be in conflict with each other.

There's another angle here, if you want to talk from the CORPORATE standpoint. The church is a "corporation sole," which means as an incorporated entity it has only one actual "member," the current President of the church.

IIRC, this has been the case since the polygamy battles of the 1880s-1890s when the church was disincorporated by the Federal government and the leaders chose the new incorporation status.

This means, for instance, that all the voting and sustaining that goes on in GC is purely for show and has no actual legal basis. GC is not like a shareholders' meeting for an ordinary corporation, where the votes actually have legal validity because those voting literally OWN a piece of the corporation. This is absolutely not the case with the church.

Some are considered followers.

I'm not a follower
But a leader

"They" only have the amount of authority over you that you give them. PERIOD!!!