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Posted by: srichardbellrock ( )
Date: April 20, 2019 06:36PM

The Dunning-Kruger Effect and Missionary Age
Also published here: https://unexaminedfaith.blogspot.com/2017/09/the-dunning-kruger-effect-and.html

Comments welcome and appreciated.


“the trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" --Bertrand Russell

While watching Wimbeldon a couple of years ago I thought to myself "that doesn't look so hard; I bet I could do that."
But I caught myself in a moment of reflection and asked myself whether, in reality, I could. To put it bluntly, I have as much chance at success as the proverbial snowball on the ferry across the Styx. I can count the number of times that I have picked up a tennis racket on one hand.

With that in mind, why would I watch the world’s elite tennis players and think that I could somehow just pick up a racket and play like them?

My daughter is taking guitar lessons. When she started she thought that it looked really easy. But each time she learns something new, she realizes how much more there is that she doesn't yet know.

It turns out that this is a widespread psychological phenomenon known as the Dunning-Kruger Effect (Kruger & Dunning, 1999). When we lack knowledge of a subject or skill, we lack the wherewithal to know how much more there is to know. Dunning-Kruger tells us that the less we know about something, the less we realize just how ignorant we are. When we don't know, we don't know what it is that we don't know. The more we know, the more we realize how much more there is to know.

With regards to my tennis potential, I lacked sufficient knowledge/skill to accurately assess my incompetence. I was, in short, too stupid to realize I was stupid.

If one is not aware of a deficit in knowledge or skill, it follows that it is all too easy to be overconfident in one’s knowledge or skill. In the words of Dunning and Kruger: “This overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it.”

If nothing compels you to see where you are wrong, a default position is to presume you are right. A child who has not learned of the reasons to reject a belief in Santa can be quite confident in telling her father that he is mistaken in not believing in Father Christmas. The child’s confidence in rejecting her parent’s assertion is a function of the child’s ignorance. Being unaware of further possible information that could shake her confidence, it seems inconceivable to her that she could be mistaken.

You see this frequently with introductory ethics or logic students. Students almost invariably presume that they are above average in their moral reasoning and critical thinking skills. Yet as they study logic and ethics, they inevitably realize that their skills were lacking, and that there are many ways in which to improve.

Like hundreds of thousands before and after me, a few decades ago I spent two years on an LDS proselytizing mission. I was quite fond of "bible bashing," as they say, because I knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that my cherished beliefs were correct.

If you had asked that missionary version of myself to rate my certainty that the claims of Mormonism were literally true, I would have confidently asserted that I was “100% certain.” Not that I “thought.” Not that I “was confident.” Not that I “believed.’

I “knew.”

But how? How did I know?

LDS epistemology (a term I had never heard prior to the mission) told me that my feelings were accurate detectors of truth, and that the elimination of doubt was the same thing as knowledge (Ether 3: 19; Alma 32: 40-41). Not knowing any alternative theories of truth, I could be 100% certain that the LDS theories of knowledge and truth detection were 100% accurate.

Such confidence can create a convincing illusion of correctness. It is true that being more informed and more knowledgeable increases the probability that one will draw correct conclusions. The more one is informed, the more confidence can be placed in ones opinions. Consequently, it is a short step of (fallacious) reasoning to presume that because an individual expresses confidence in her opinions, she must therefore be well informed, and is more likely to be correct.

However, just because B follows from A, that is no guarantee that a specific instance of B was caused by A. If whenever it rains (A), your lawn gets wet (B), that doesn’t mean that every time your lawn is wet (B), you can conclude that it rained (A). There can be other explanations for the wet lawn—like your sprinkler system. Likewise, being informed (A) leads to confidence in conclusions (B), but confidence in conclusions can be accounted for by something other than being well informed—like the Dunning-Kruger effect.

So is it any wonder that they sent us out to teach Mormonism at an immature 19 years old? It was 21 years old for the Sisters at the time. Current missionaries are even younger: 18 for the young men, and 19 for the young ladies. At that age we are disturbingly undereducated. Had I studied even a small amount comparative religion, logic, psychology, anthropology, neurophysiology, epistemology...or practically any academic discipline at all… I would have realized how profoundly ignorant I really was, and how foolish I appeared to those I was trying to convince with my confidence. I sincerely believed that my bold confidence would be the deciding factor in the conversion of my investigators, when in reality, to the educated, my bold confidence was as convincing as that of the little girl who scolds her Father for not believing in Santa.

As a young uninformed, undereducated missionary, I could testify with bold certainty because I was too stupid to know that I was stupid.

On a related note, is it any wonder that our friends and family members hardly ever ask us why we have left the Church. For many of them, maintaining a strategic level of ignorance with regards to LDS history and theology allows them to maintain their confidence (i.e. faith) in the institution.
Kruger, J., & Dunning, D. (1999). Unskilled and Unaware of it: How Difficulties in Recognizing One’s Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 77 (6): 1121-34.

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Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: April 20, 2019 07:11PM

We should call it The Church of Dunning-Kruger of the Proudly Ignorant.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: April 20, 2019 09:48PM

But who knows more than 18 year olds.

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Posted by: carameldreams ( )
Date: April 20, 2019 10:25PM

srichardbellrock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Dunning-Kruger Effect and Missionary Age
> Also published here:
> https://unexaminedfaith.blogspot.com/2017/09/the-d
> unning-kruger-effect-and.html


> Dunning-Kruger tells us that the less
> we know about something, the less we realize just
> how ignorant we are. When we don't know, we don't
> know what it is that we don't know. The more we
> know, the more we realize how much more there is
> to know.

Not a fan of 'so and so tells us'. But for the purposes of replying to this post, fair enough. Dunning-Kruger, Book of Mormon, DSM, mama says, Prophet says...

Doubt is discouraged in Mormonism. As you stated.

This is radically different than the assertions you posit from Dunning-Kruger which is an inflated confidence from ignorance.

Cannot have both mental states held simultaneously.

Doubt and ignorance-based inflated confidence are mutually exclusive.

Personally, all the missionaries I've known, hosted in my home, welcomed to teach me and my family have been fragile, tender hearted individuals trying to survive a difficult experience. NONE were ego-based assholes, confident per the Dunning-Kruger model of personality.

Scared, vulnerable, vacillating, lonely, doubting, trying, ever trying, surviving, impressionable...

These are the missionaries I've known and know.

Which gives every reason to be kind and gentle and loving to them.

They are doing the best they can. They are no threat as nothing real can be threatened anyway.

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Posted by: S. Richard Bellrock ( )
Date: April 21, 2019 04:08PM

What a curious an unnecessarily combative response.

Did anybody else think I was inferring that these kids are Ego based assholes?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 21, 2019 04:32PM

There was a video up for a short time on Re**it. It was recorded by a Ring(dot)com doorbell product. It was so spot on to how three of my four senior companions treated tracted.

The two elders are seen approaching the front door, which is at the end of an at least 20 foot by maybe 8-foot walkway. The sides of the walkway are stucco walls.

The two elders are both bouncing rubber balls, about the size of those balls on a rubber band, stapled to a paddle.

I don't remember anything that the said, but there were just chatting, and bouncing the balls, now using the two side walls to make it more interesting. '

The homeowner never responded. The two elders loitered at the street end of the 20-foot passageway, bouncing, in ever more complicated manner, their rubber balls, and chatting.

Many of those who commented remarked on how boring tracting can be and how many of them played some kind of a game as they walked house to house.

The elders' faces were NOT pixelated. Which is why the video was probably pulled down. If their MP ever hears about it, he'll for sure go all judgmental on they elder behinds.

As much as we goofed on, being the kids we were, we never goofed off when we were with adults mormons. We did our very best to leave adult mormons (especially the ones who fed us) with the impression that we were "Scared, vulnerable, vacillating, lonely, doubting, trying, ever trying, surviving, impressionable..."

In other words, we sucked up for all we were worth when we thought it wise to do so.

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Posted by: mel ( )
Date: April 23, 2019 03:10PM

S. Richard Bellrock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did anybody else think I was inferring that these kids are Ego based assholes?

No, that was not your implication in my opinion.

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Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: April 21, 2019 09:11PM

carameldreams Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> srichardbellrock Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> NONE were ego-based assholes,
> confident per the Dunning-Kruger model of
> personality.

I had two APs and three ZLs who were like that.

But, yes, I don't give missionaries a hard time, because I remember being one.

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Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: April 21, 2019 09:16PM

One thing religion does is offer believers certainty. That can be addictive if the rest of your life is confusing or doesn't work very well for you.

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Posted by: snowednomore ( )
Date: April 22, 2019 06:09AM

Did you serve a mission? Attend Zone or Mission Conferences? Did you ever "Bible Bash"?

My word,I think the Dunning-Kruger effect goes a long way towards explaining the misplaced confidence displayed by Mormons generally, and many missionaries specifically.

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Posted by: jay ( )
Date: April 24, 2019 01:06PM

This is how Carmel dreams rolls, and I kind of like it.

But if you think she was kind to those lonely, scared souls, well, I haven’t seen any evidence here on the board to support that proposition.

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Posted by: mel ( )
Date: April 20, 2019 11:29PM

Srichard,

This was a very interesting article and post. I think it explains a lot about people I have met both in and out of the cult.

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Posted by: carameldreams ( )
Date: April 21, 2019 12:55AM

mel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Srichard,
>
> This was a very interesting article and post. I
> think it explains a lot about people I have met
> both in and out of the cult.

What does 'it explain'?

C'mon.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: April 22, 2019 10:54AM

Perhaps read the OP again. The point of the DK study are very well laid out.

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Posted by: carameldreams ( )
Date: April 23, 2019 09:25PM

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perhaps read the OP again. The point of the DK
> study are very well laid out.

Hardly!

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Posted by: chipace ( )
Date: April 22, 2019 12:04AM

In thinking back to when I was there, it seemed that the most dedicated missionaries were more about moving up the ladder (maybe it would impress a young lady in the future). I did meet one or two TBM missionaries who appeared to be sincerely motivated for the salvation of others... this could have been Dunning-Kruger mixed with their personality.
Where did I fit in? I realized it was a crock of BS about 3 months in and focused on learning the language. I followed the rules because I committed to that beforehand and the primary reason for going was to make my family look good in the local ward.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: April 22, 2019 10:51AM

Very interesting article. I must say at 19 when I left for my mission, I really thought I knew. Some were faking their testimonies for whatever reason, but most of us were very sure in our "knowledge" and ready to use it. So I see my young self and the missionaries I knew in your post.

Nowadays, I think there is a difference. I think a lot of the kids are just pleasing the parents and facing a world that has no interest in Mormonism whatsoever. I still see the DK effect though in most of the young I know.

This got me: "Had I studied even a small amount comparative religion, logic, psychology, anthropology, neurophysiology, epistemology...or practically any academic discipline at all. I would have realized how profoundly ignorant I really was, and how foolish I appeared to those I was trying to convince with my confidence."

I would hope that would have been the case but I was so brainwashed that I may have found a way to reject that learning. I don't think so actually, but you made me wonder.

For me there is a positive--a big up-side-- to the Dunning-Kruger Effect. When I was young I was a very good artist. However I thought I was a great artist--at least a hundred times better than I was. The great confidence that this false assumption gave me allowed me to take chances and bite off more than I should have been abler to chew, but then chew it anyway somehow because of my pride. Now all these decades later I know what I did not know then. But how could I have known then. The DK effect has a purpose. Sometimes we charge in first and then flying by the seat of our pants learn our lessons as a way to save face, to be somebody no matter what, or to just not make a fool of ourselves.
But the DK is still a bad combination with missions no matter how you slice it.

I had the companions who were obnoxious and rude and arrogant--the ones Caramel Dreams has never met. The ones who really put on the show at the Zone and Mission conferences as snowednomore alludes to. They were not the majority luckily and I'm glad I was never one of them. I never honestly felt the people on my mission needed the message. I was mostly a programmed robot at that point that just did as told.

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Posted by: mel ( )
Date: April 23, 2019 01:19AM

Done & Done Wrote,
>
>"Had I studied even a small amount comparative religion, logic,

In the schools I graduated from, neither was required. Both would have been helpful!

But I postulate that so-called requirements for majors or graduating are more about the political clout of a professor who teaches that class, than any benefit to the student.
>
> I thought I was a great artist...

Ha! When you’re young isn’t the world great, seen through the lens of that great confidence?

> The DK effect has a purpose. Sometimes we
> charge in first and then flying by the seat of our
> pants learn our lessons as a way to save face, to
> be somebody no matter what, or to just not make a
> fool of ourselves.

Yes! Try things we never would! And then when older we can marvel at!!!

> I had the companions who were obnoxious and rude...They were not the majority luckily...

I ran into one stuffed shirt but the others missionaries, especially when I learned I could take them out for a meal and not just bring them cookies, were very smart, eager, friendly, pleasant to spend a meal with, learn about their homes and families. One was a recent convert just like I was, he was from Hawaii, very pleasant but I felt that he, also, was feeling his way in the strange country of Mormon.

He told the story that during their recent scare of the (false) emergency notification in Hawaii that missiles were incoming, he and his younger brother took shelter in the ward, seeing it as safer than their house. So I guess those buildings could be good for something!

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: April 22, 2019 11:57AM

Good old Mark Twain: “When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”

Two observations on both sides of the coin re: Dunning-Kruger: One way a cult can draw you in is to feed you a bit of the esoteric knowledge that they, and no one else, have--even though the original pitch is "PLAIN and precious truth"; having whetted your appetite, they keep telling you there's more and deeper knowledge--just keep paying and running on the hamster wheel and you'll keep "learning." Scientology OT levels? Books by Mo' prophets that quote other Mo' prophets? Repeated visits to the temple to "learn something new every time I go."?

On the other hand, going down the rabbit hole of really learning the history of things like Scientology and Mo'ism peels back the layers of lies and fiction and the shock of finding out the more you know that didn't know, the more you want to know!

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Posted by: Eric3 ( )
Date: April 23, 2019 07:30PM

Dunning-Kruger doesn't seem quite right here. It describes a persistent mistaken belief about one's competence, that does not fade when the person experiences the real difficulty of the given subject. But it's a close cousin.

"LDS epistemology" seems more accurate. LDS gives young people an account that fuzzes together belief and knowledge and truth and feelings and doctrine. It feels good and right and true, and it doesn't stand up to 5 minutes of examination -- but for msot mishies, that 5 minutes never comes.

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Posted by: carameldreams ( )
Date: April 23, 2019 09:26PM

Eric3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dunning-Kruger doesn't seem quite right here. It
> describes a persistent mistaken belief about one's
> competence, that does not fade when the person
> experiences the real difficulty of the given
> subject. But it's a close cousin.

It isn't right.

It's a false position.

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Posted by: Eric3 ( )
Date: April 24, 2019 11:53AM

"Not quite right" as in "doesn't totally apply" not as in right or wrong.

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Posted by: Eric3 ( )
Date: April 24, 2019 11:57AM

Solomon may or may not be who wrote that :)

In traditional Jewish texts and throughout church history (up to the 18th and 19th centuries), King Solomon is named as the author, although many modern scholars reject this. The author is not named anywhere in the book.

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Posted by: Aloysius ( )
Date: April 23, 2019 09:49PM

Interesting thoughts and very insightful. But I don't think we need a clinical term to describe the naïvete of youth and the confidence of the novice.

This is ancient wisdom being learned anew by each generation.

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Posted by: Eric3 ( )
Date: April 24, 2019 02:50PM

"I don't think we need a clinical term to describe the naïvete of youth and the confidence of the novice"

Much to agree with there!

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: April 23, 2019 11:28PM

Or the ancients:

"True wisdom comes to each of us when we realize how little we understand about life, ourselves, and the world around us." (Socrates)

"I know that I am intelligent, because I know that I know nothing." (Socrates)

...which just goes to show Solomon was right: "...there is nothing new under the sun."

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