Now that you're an exMo? I try not to tell people that I'm an ex Mormon. I don't really want to talk about it (unless I'm commiserating with a sibling), and sometimes it seems to have unintended consequences...a shift in perception about me. I've been rejected numerous times for even being affiliated with Mormonism. For this reason and many others I had my name removed last year so that if someone asks me if I'm Mo I can truthfully say no. I generally avoid people I know who are Mormon if I can.

Anyway, often times when I meet a new friend that I really get along with, I am sort of disappointed when I learn that they are religious (either from things they talk about or seeing pictures on social media). I have 2 different neighbors that I enjoy friendships with. Our kids also play together. But...once I learned that they are religious...I'm slightly put off. One of them has invited my daughter to their kids' bible study on Tuesday nights. Seems harmless? I would not let her go ever because then she can get sucked in and think that she needs to join their church in order to keep up the friendship. And then there becomes a problem because I would say no way. My child wouldn't understand and then I look like the bad guy. Neither knows I'm an exMo...but could probably surmise that I'm not religious at all. These neighbors are NOT Mormon. They both belong to the same neighborhood Christian church that seems kind of 'trendy' to belong to. I'm sure my feelings stem from being raised in the cult, but I'm happy when I meet someone who isn't religious at all. I don't have to worry about a religion guiding their every decision, talking about gawd a lot, dictating what they do on Sundays, or only hanging out with people who are church-goers.

Maybe I'm over-thinking it all. But it all keeps going around in my head. And I think we're as far in our friendship as we could ever be and I'm a little bummed about that. As in they are part of a community that I'm not and that I will never join just to be in their circle. Ugh...I'm tired of friend shopping.

I try to change the topic to something we might have in common. Most people are fun and interesting about something if you take the time to get to know them.

If they are the type that can't have a bowel movement without talking about religion, or if they demonstrate they depend on God for decision making processes at work, I pretty much move on. I don't need "I guess that was God's plan" type of BS when they don't do their job at work.

Mostly it is the "are you saved" types and the ones who are trying to impose their religious views onto everyone through influencing the laws that I try to avoid. Thankfully religion doesn't come up with most people.

Pushy religious people? Yes. Normal religious people? No.

Same here. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they become annoying.

I am myself around extremely religious people so they avoid me and save me the trouble.

Most relationships reach a level and stay there. Few keep climbing. Religion levels off a relationship very fast for me. I am not able to have truly deep friendships with the overtly religious. Just can't do it. Have to keep things "business friendly."

Children should be taught critical thinking skills early--especially with regards to religion. They should learn how to examine religion not avoid it. It's hard to see the rattlesnakes out in the thick brush.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> ...they avoid me and save me the trouble.

Yeah, when they figure out I'm not one of them they usually move on.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Most relationships reach a level and stay there.
> Few keep climbing. Religion levels off a
> relationship very fast for me. I am not able to
> have truly deep friendships with the overtly
> religious. Just can't do it. Have to keep things
> "business friendly."

I think this is where I'm at with a few people that I wish we could get to a different place...as in go on family camping trips or something. Oh well...


> Children should be taught critical thinking skills
> early--especially with regards to religion. They
> should learn how to examine religion not avoid it.
> It's hard to see the rattlesnakes out in the
> thick brush.


I do agree with this. I don't want to shield my kids, rather armor them properly.

My religious friends and acquaintances are the nice, non-pushy type for the most part. Even then I am having an increasingly difficult time relating to them when they start discussing matters of faith. This is an ongoing issue for me that will take some time to sort out.

As for your child's invitation to a bible study, a simple "No, thank you" would suffice.

As a teen, I sometimes attended my friends' church activities, but they were things like dinners and dances where minimal church talk was involved, and no one was trying to convert me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2019 06:12PM by summer.

Yes, I know what you're talking about, bluebutterfly.

I like the way you put it: "I'm tired of friend shopping."

It would be nice, if we could establish some guidelines, on how to avoid a repeat of the Mormon experience. I'm going to check back, and see what the other posters have to say about this.

I've been out for almost 12 years, and I haven't any personal rules that work for me. People are individuals. Some of my closest acquaintances are "spiritual". Some, I honestly don't know what church they attend, if any at all. I'm no great example of being social or popular, these days. Like you, I generally avoid Mormons. Even though I left the cult quietly, my children and I were brutally harassed, and then shunned. There are some neighbors who haven't spoken to me for 12 years. Most don't even make eye contact, and walk the other way, on the sidewalks and at the stores. This hurt my feelings, at first.

One thing I learned, is that the "community support group" aspect of Mormonism was an illusion. I never relied on any Mormons for help, but most of those who did ask for help were turned down.

Mormons claim to have "intimate" friendships--they talk about underwear, they do (used to do) naked touching in secret temple rituals, they talk about sex a lot, they talk about porn and masturbation a lot, they talk about birth control, virginity, and their marriages--Hell--they even give lessons on some of that stuff. I remember talking to Mormon husbands at parties, and thinking, "How can I look this man in the eye? If he only knew the stuff his wife told me about their sex life!"

Real-world friendships, IMO, don't cross those social boundaries of "propriety." Can you imagine asking a normal person if they look at porn, or if their daughter is a virgin?

Mormons share ONLY religion as their one common interest. Real people have work friends, golf or tennis buddies, friends they have symphony tickets with, other friends they travel with, couples friends, single friends, book club friends, volunteer friends. These relationships evolve out of the common tasks at hand. Some of my best friends have been parents of my children's friends, and we would take the kids to the park, to swimming lessons, on picnics and hikes, to museums, etc. School was an extension of that. Children were the focus of our lives, rather than church.

Community? I had that in California, in our neighborhood and in the schools. We had charitable projects together, and we would get results! We made the fund-raisers FUN for everyone. We were part of a large enough group, that everyone felt accepted. I mean, the women wouldn't separate into little cliques and whisper gossip together in the corner. There wasn't competition and resentment between the races and socio-economic classes. It was ideal, and it can be done, because we did it! It did involve a greater level of acceptance, than the Mormons would have allowed. I have some great stories of forgiveness and kindness, that came out of that community.

Maybe we look for something that doesn't exist. I'm "intimate" friends with my daughters and sons, but I would NEVER talk to them about sex, or ask if they plan on having more children. I would never make them accountable for their time, or how they spend their Sundays, or with whom.

I would never drop by and ring someone's doorbell at night, unannounced! Not even my children, unless it was an extreme emergency.

There's nothing wrong with stepping back, a bit, and keeping reasonable boundaries with your new.

As for Bible study--just say, "No, thank you." Children are busy with school and homework, and playing. If you want your child to read the Bible YOU read it with her, and you can be there to answer any questions. I'm suspicious of any religion that wants to interpret, intercede, or tell your child what to think.

I like what Heidi GWOTR said.

No,unless they give me reason to avoid them

Yes

I started to say, "Yes." But, honestly, there are so many whom I adore. Some, however try my patience, and I have to avoid them.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2019 03:43AM by kathleen.

I say this after a text request to pray that a Christian couple’s “lesbians next door get evicted.”

—it’s just stuff like that —Been a bad day.

Yes. Sigh. That gets old. If we just ignore things like that, they think what they are saying is acceptable to us. It's important to be where others do not share the same views so we examine our biases, but at some point we have to evaluate how best to support our gay fellow humans and our own values too.

kathleen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I say this after a text request to pray that a
> Christian couple’s “lesbians next door get
> evicted.”
>
> —it’s just stuff like that —Been a bad day.


:-O Unbelievable! Yet not surprising. Sounds like something my TBM dad would say.

You can't have a deep friendship unless you share core values. Religion is a core value for most.

It's hard to make new friends but you have to find people you share values with!

Religion isn't the only core value and not all religious people push their beliefs on you or deny science or disrespect other views. Some are smart and well informed and can think critically.There are some religious people I don't want to have much to do with and some non believers I feel the same way about, including a few on the boards. In both cases they seem to want to push their views on others and disrespect those who don't agree. To me tolerance IS a core value and more important than someone's religious beliefs assuming their beliefs haven't turned them into bigots.To be friends you need to have common interests and the same moral values which isn't the same thing as religion. You need to respect people for who they are and so does the friend. Both need to set boundaries. I don't care if people are religious or not if they can manage respect and tolerance and if we like the same things and enjoy each other.Frankly, some atheists are as bad as some religions in my experience.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2019 09:33PM by bona dea.

I would say true for most. I'm not most.

I actually like not having core values in common. I like all different kinds from all different back grounds and I like not considering their values because values for me is a devalued word. Then I thought what is a value--the worth of something? The value of a car may be $35,000. The value of a person may be $1.50. Australian lobster tails might be $75.00 each. A wall could go for billions. Value?

Mormons say they have higher values than others or standards or morals but they are all referring to how much they are worth compared to other people considering themselves to be the Rolls Royce of the Religious. That is not a seductive quality for a friendship. Measuring yourself against another is a mood killer. I don't like to be "accepted" for who I am or requiere a caveat.

I don't like to judge people'w worth. I like people who you can have a laugh with just by catching each other's eye. You can't put a price on that. I showed someone a photo today from yesterday's paper and he started laughing hysterically like I knew he would The photo was not intended to be humorous. I would say the moment was worth at least $150.00 as a value.

I wish you could still pat someone on the shoulder or touch their hand. Boy are those days over. Talk about a down grade in value for the whole human race.

Sorry for the ramble, Mel. You just made me think too much about friendship. I would expect you to have a lot.

Done & Done Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
> ...the Rolls Royce of the Religious.

Hahaha!!

I may have used the wrong word or maybe it depends on age. For example when I was in high school everyone I hung out with smoked dope and drank. When I went to college they were still doing that and living at home with no desire to succeed. Goals were getting loaded or other short/term escapes.

Since I did not share their interests, we didn’t have high school in common anymore, and they had no interest in college, that was what I meant of shared core values, or possibly, interests. I’m sure I could still share a laugh with them today but I wouldn’t want to hang out with them, probably.
>
> Sorry for the ramble, Mel. You just made me think
too much about friendship. I would expect you to have a lot.

Feel free to ramble, Done, whenever you like. I’ve been reading a book called “the consuming instinct and human nature” by Gad Saad. There is a chapter about the reciprocal nature of friendships and contrasts American friendships (shallow due to moving often) to that of other countries where families may have known each other for generations.

The author was a Jew in Beirut and their deep friendships and bonds with members of other faiths were the only way they escaped the country alive.

You are a smart and thoughtful person, Done, and myself and many others, I am sure, would be proud to call you “friend.” :)

You didn't use any wrong words. Perhaps it does depend on age. Everything looks a little more transparent to me every year now and I'm not just talking about my skin.

This morning I am back to seeing one of my old favorites as the basis for a friendship with value--immeasurable or measurable: "Being understood." which is code for being seen as whole--not perfect--but whole. Also code for shared history.

Being understood brings a connection available in no other way. Families who have lived side by side, people who have worked side by side, fighting in a war side by side . . . like those families you allude to who have known each other for generations.
I come from an old pioneer town like that. Shared history.

My TBM parents had their TBM friends and much of that was their bond. The shared worry of a sick child or an errant child. They saw each other every Sunday. Everyone showed up to help my Dad build his house as he did theirs. And not because they were assigned. Shared gardens, shared understanding. My Mom says often now that there is no place on earth like the people in her town and what she means is---"because they are Mormon." She is wrong. They are wonderful because they are people and deep down we understand each other if we let ourselves. At the end of my days there I sat and listened to two old timers in their nineties reminisce about the beginning of the town in the 1800's. Their bond was palpable. The Mormon church never came into the hours of conversation even as they sat there with their garments underneath it all. So different then.


Last time I had a close group of friends we had all just gotten away from BYU one way or the other. We were all gay and some had just narrowly escaped the Electro-Shock therapy, some had been kicked out, and one sued to get his diploma being denied him. We livid in the city of Salt Lake like we had just broke the surface of the ocean after a cliff dive. The bond of what we had all been through was immense. After a night of dancing at The Sun, coffee in the morning was the taste of broken chains laying on the floor. They couldn't get us any more. I wish I could see those guys again but most are gone. Those were my friends. I have some of that feeling for the first time in years because I am here--RFM.

Too much history?

History is pretty much all we have left. And at our age it's nice to share.

There is always that sense of walking on egg shells.

Not always if you don't feel the need to preach or put religion down and the other person doesn't feel the need to proselytize or talk about religion constantly. If you are friends you presumably have other things in common which you can talk about or do together.I do have trouble with the Mormons who play the victim ,the science deniers and those whose religious views get into political views I don like at all.

Sounds like OP is having a hard time opening up to various kinds of people. Humans struggle with prejudices and bigotry and racism, and sexism. I know I do, just different a different sort bigotry than what OP is describing (the archie bunker kind). But it is important not to judge a book by it's cover. When you feel those urges come up of hating Mormons stop and say to yourself "am I being rational?" And if your not then stop thinking (fretting) and put forth the effort to be a kind person who is gracious to everyone you come across (who's not trying to threaten, or steal your stuff of course).

As for shielding your daughter from really nice Christians who are teaching good things to kids, Think to yourself "is this rational because I hate mormons?"

To be honest, it doesn't sound rational to me. (but we all struggle with fears, and mixed up thinking from time to time)

Give people a chance. If you find that they are not your type of friend or not worth the effort, you don't have to keep seeing them. There are all sorts its of religions and lots of religious people who or not like the worst of Mormons.. Many are much more tolerant and accepting than ultra Mormons and don't care if you believe-much less join their church and won't harass your kids.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2019 08:15PM by bona dea.

Yes, I purposefully avoid religious people. Maybe that is not fair, but in my experience religious people are more bigoted and close-minded.

Why limit it to religion? There's sports, politics, vegetarianism & veganism, climate alarmists, New Agers, conspiracy theorists, animal rights advocates, etc. Certain people can get on a you-must-believe-this! kick and be obnoxious.

I have a few friends with whom I have either an unspoken or explicit understanding to exclude certain subjects from conversation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2019 10:00PM by caffiend.

Agreed and there advice things that make it harder for me to be friends with people than religion.

Huh??

Okay

Only the ones who insist on telling me they are Christian's in their introductory greeting.

Bluebutterfly,

I agree not letting your kids go to bible study. They will be preached to believe in god and to study the Bible and perhaps be made fun of if they are ignorant of all the religious stuff or if they don’t immediately start praying and consulting god to find out his will for decisions.

When they are older they can choose their friends but for now you as the parent do it. Your call, your rules. Don’t second guess!

I think by even questioning your own decisions you are showing sensitivity and discernment which means you’re a fabulous parent, in my opinion!

The Bible school I attended as a kid was Bible stories which if nothing else,promoted cultural literacy, coloring and crafts. Some are pushy, some are not. Regardless it is up to the parent and parents should check them out if the do allow them to go. I would phenomenal h some if the child wanted to go and wouldn't even consider others

Yes

I do have the neighbors and I'll say again how wonderful they really are. They didn't live here during the really bad years, so she and some of the older kids try to get me to go to ward dinners, etc. The husband does not, although he and I are friends, too.

I was walking my dogs yesterday and I realized that MOST of the people in this neighborhood do not try to save me. The family that my daughter just married into leave me completely alone including my new son-in-law. He's great and always has been. He obviously accepts me right where I am. We became good friends after their first breakup 6 years ago and he came to talk to me about it. There is a significant family who I know very, very well who have completely left mormonism out of our friendship. Actually, the mormons tend to come to tell me their issues that they don't tell anyone else as they wouldn't dare. One lady, who was my VT AFTER I went inactive, is one of my closest friends and we can't stop talking if we run into each other. Not once has she tried to get me involved again.

I'm an introvert, so I don't go out and look for friends, though I am friends with a lot of my neighbors.

Most of my family is not mormon. It is always interesting to get together with some of them and talk about mormonism and our lives.

I'm not religious but I generally prefer the company of religious people my age.

Most kids my age who aren't religious anymore are really rude and pushy, act like they're so "woke" and that anyone who believes in god are just idiots. I had to cut off one friend who couldn't stop talking about Christopher Hitchens youtube videos. It became his total identity and I just didn't dig it.

Kids my age who are religious tend to be pretty cool about it. There are exceptions, obviously, but I find this generally to be true.

I don't know if god exists.

> I don't know if god exists.
>

Did you ever wonder if ghawd knows if you exist?

I'm amused by the efforts of people who convince themselves that he does. But I prefer to be amused from a distance.

No, I'm not just trolling. I've met so many toxic atheists in the last while. Social media is full of them... I'd sooner deal with someone from another religion than a head banging self-righteous atheist.

Non-religious people who aren't head bangers and bigots are alright by me, e.g. most agnostics and non-church attenders, but those aggressive atheist types are often no fun to be around, even when you're not discussing religion.