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Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
… and listen to your answer, with at least *some* attempt to understand?
Me: No, no one.
Me: No, no one.
Nope. Not one.
No.
no
They don't need to. They already know you were offended, lost the spirit (that darn Satan), or couldn't keep their "standards" because the church said so!
They MUST conclude that you are at fault and not the ridiculous dogma.
They MUST conclude that you are at fault and not the ridiculous dogma.
Also,
They know not to get near anything that might not be faith-promoting. So, they don't want to know or ask about your possible "anti" stuff.
They also know they are not supposed to associate with apostates. So, they avoid delving into that possibility.
They know not to get near anything that might not be faith-promoting. So, they don't want to know or ask about your possible "anti" stuff.
They also know they are not supposed to associate with apostates. So, they avoid delving into that possibility.
Only one person, who would also end up leaving in a few years after me.
I told her the truth. I no longer believed in the basic and foundational doctrines of Mormonism, so it contrary to my conscience to remain.
They understood and were supportive.
I told her the truth. I no longer believed in the basic and foundational doctrines of Mormonism, so it contrary to my conscience to remain.
They understood and were supportive.
I told a cousin I am close to; he listened politely.
Not a single person from church or family has asked.
Not a single person from church or family has asked.
They had a pretty good idea why I might have left, but they did want to hear my input. Then my parents started talking about their own issues with the church. They died not long after this. They were very supportive and accepting as they had watched my life fall apart. I was their most devout child. They NEVER EVER thought I'd leave.
My brother did. He had been inactive since he was a teenager, but thought he still had to buy into it in terms of he was damned for being the sinner he was. He asked me many times, "So you really don't believe." They all had a difficult time believing that I didn't believe--my whole family.
The few mormon friends who I've talked to about it from my past think I still believe deep down.
The bishop, when he brought my official out of the church letter, told me he wouldn't try to talk me out of it as he has witnessed some of what I had been through. My journey out of the church was pretty in your face for people who knew me. My life was a disaster for a while. AND they knew it wasn't because I was a sinner that my life was a disaster. Especially my parents and many of my friends. Many tell me, "But you did it all correctly and look what happened to your life." My life started getting better once I let go of the lds church.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2019 05:26PM by cl2.
My brother did. He had been inactive since he was a teenager, but thought he still had to buy into it in terms of he was damned for being the sinner he was. He asked me many times, "So you really don't believe." They all had a difficult time believing that I didn't believe--my whole family.
The few mormon friends who I've talked to about it from my past think I still believe deep down.
The bishop, when he brought my official out of the church letter, told me he wouldn't try to talk me out of it as he has witnessed some of what I had been through. My journey out of the church was pretty in your face for people who knew me. My life was a disaster for a while. AND they knew it wasn't because I was a sinner that my life was a disaster. Especially my parents and many of my friends. Many tell me, "But you did it all correctly and look what happened to your life." My life started getting better once I let go of the lds church.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2019 05:26PM by cl2.
No.
No.
Mishies and local ward harassers showed up a time or two and they asked but only because it was a last ditch effort to start any kind of a conversation before the door closed on them.
No. Those who knew me just figured I left because of the divorces from my newly out gay husband. Well,they were partially right because it was a catalyst that put me on a path of looking deeper into a religion I had just accepted as "true" my whole life.
But, like others, no one really wanted to know the real reasons. Can't shake those testimonies you know.
But, like others, no one really wanted to know the real reasons. Can't shake those testimonies you know.
No one asked me but they apparently had a lot of fun spreading gossip about the reasons they thought I left.
Missionaries stopped me on the street. I told them I'd been a Mormon and had even gone on a mission. They asked me why I stopped going to church. I told them I was tired of feeling bad about myself - that the Mormon church didn't build me up it tore me down. They didn't have a comeback for that one. The elder who asked me the question seemed to sympathize.
Most members I ran into after I hadn't been to church in years, didn't seem at all curious as to why I stopped attending. Obviously it was a flaw in my personality and nothing to do with church.
Most members I ran into after I hadn't been to church in years, didn't seem at all curious as to why I stopped attending. Obviously it was a flaw in my personality and nothing to do with church.
No one was interested in why - they had already made up their own self-righteous reasons. I was treated to all manner of passive-aggressive comments when I ran into them in public, though.
Yeah, definitely!
I pretty much told them all the same thing: It's just not for me.
When they would say things like, "but you know you'll never be in the Celestial kingdom" I would respond with, "yeah, the Celestial kingdom is just not for me."
Every time they dangled some kind of lost reward I would just respond with, "x is just not for me."
For those who would say I was just offended or wanted to sin, I would say, "you're probably right."
I pretty much told them all the same thing: It's just not for me.
When they would say things like, "but you know you'll never be in the Celestial kingdom" I would respond with, "yeah, the Celestial kingdom is just not for me."
Every time they dangled some kind of lost reward I would just respond with, "x is just not for me."
For those who would say I was just offended or wanted to sin, I would say, "you're probably right."
They have to believe there is something wrong with you. And it's hypocrisy, because deep down they know they do things that make them 'unworthy' of what they say you threw away.
It's a great church for pretenders.
It's a great church for pretenders.
A once very close friend (I thought) insisted I tell her why and I did. She no longer speaks to me.
Nope. Not one.
No. They said they felt sorry (in a bad way) for me and they were offended.
When beliefs are so ephemerally tenuous, one must surround oneself exclusively in a sea of people (at least overtly) singing the same tired song. Anyone with the confidence to sing a different tune - or not sing at all - threatens to bring the entire house of cards down.
When a life is built upon a foundation so tenuous (because it is a lie), there is constant screaming anxiety: the very existence of the universe is daily threatened.
Their own anxieties force them to erase any not singing their song - so no, they do not want to know, and will never ask at all, let alone sincerely. Far too threatening.
It is also why when Death comes, they are afraid.
When a life is built upon a foundation so tenuous (because it is a lie), there is constant screaming anxiety: the very existence of the universe is daily threatened.
Their own anxieties force them to erase any not singing their song - so no, they do not want to know, and will never ask at all, let alone sincerely. Far too threatening.
It is also why when Death comes, they are afraid.
Well stated.
As I stated above, my parents and family wanted to know, but they pretty much already had it figured out. Even one of my very best friends, when I told her I no longer believed, told me she had already figured it out.
But my family. They can be a real pain sometimes, but they have always been behind me in this situation. My daughter questions my actions more than anyone, but she will figure it out. She just suppresses what happened to our family. She also hasn't figured out that part of the reason I left is because of how much I do love her father AS HE IS. But thank whomever for my family. But then my family is pretty much out. I have one sister who is active, but doesn't believe most of it. I have a disabled brother (intellectually and physically) who still goes and it is good for him to socialize. Many of the mormons in his ward (my parents' old ward) are really good to him and watch out for him. Otherwise, my daughter, my now SIL, and my BIL are still active. Of 6 kids, 4 children, 3 in-laws, 1 niece and 8 nephews, and my parents 8 great-grandkids all are out. I was lucky.
But my family. They can be a real pain sometimes, but they have always been behind me in this situation. My daughter questions my actions more than anyone, but she will figure it out. She just suppresses what happened to our family. She also hasn't figured out that part of the reason I left is because of how much I do love her father AS HE IS. But thank whomever for my family. But then my family is pretty much out. I have one sister who is active, but doesn't believe most of it. I have a disabled brother (intellectually and physically) who still goes and it is good for him to socialize. Many of the mormons in his ward (my parents' old ward) are really good to him and watch out for him. Otherwise, my daughter, my now SIL, and my BIL are still active. Of 6 kids, 4 children, 3 in-laws, 1 niece and 8 nephews, and my parents 8 great-grandkids all are out. I was lucky.
When I told our next door neighbor, she cried and hugged me and said: "I'm so sorry!" Her and her husband are still friendly with us. Then, a couple that we knew in our ward were made ward missionaries and convinced us to go to dinner with them. (we had never socialized with them outside of church before). When we got back from dinner, he asked us when are you going to get your butts back in church? We haven't heard from them or seen them for about 2 years now.
Once. I was driving with my sister when she asked, "If you don't believe in the church anymore, what DO you believe?" It was all in a tone of wanting to understand. Some of her children had left the church or were about to. I think she was coming to grips with how people who were raised in the church, who seemed to be solid members, could turn their backs on something that was so precious to her. What was important to them? What guided their lives?
My Mom used to ask why I didn't go to church anymore, and I knew if I answered with the full truth, I would probably never hear from her again. So I would just say I didn't have a desire to go anymore.
In the end, it probably didn't matter, because the longer I stayed away, I realized that my relationships with my family were all so superficial. I might as well have told them all I stopped believing and why. No relationship would have been about as fulfilling as the one I had with them anyway.
Now that my Mom and Dad have both passed away, I think I should have spoken up, but somehow I just couldn't bring myself to disappoint my Mom more that she already was.
In the end, it probably didn't matter, because the longer I stayed away, I realized that my relationships with my family were all so superficial. I might as well have told them all I stopped believing and why. No relationship would have been about as fulfilling as the one I had with them anyway.
Now that my Mom and Dad have both passed away, I think I should have spoken up, but somehow I just couldn't bring myself to disappoint my Mom more that she already was.
Yes, one person asked sincerely my reasons.
They have since left the church, and I learned they already had a niggling concern in the back of their mind. Without that doubt already there, I don't think they would have ever asked me my reasons for leaving.
They have since left the church, and I learned they already had a niggling concern in the back of their mind. Without that doubt already there, I don't think they would have ever asked me my reasons for leaving.
No Mormon former-friends ever bothered to ask. They just wanted to condemn me and gossip about me. I live a nice, quiet life, and my children are lovely people, but no Mormon in our old ward will even speak to me. I wonder if they are still angry that I stopped playing the organ and piano for them. That ward still doesn't have enough pianists.
When we were only inactive, and not resigned, plenty of Mormon has plenty to say to us, in the form of threats and insults. Um, Mormons, are you stupid enough to think that abuse will actually persuade people to not leave! It just underscored my belief that these were evil cult-members, and that my children and I were correct in our decision to leave.
After our formal resignation, the bishop came over and asked me why, as he was assigned to do. I told him why I didn't believe Joseph Smith was not a prophet. He said, "Can I come back later? I will PROVE to you that--next to Jesus Christ--Joseph Smith was the greatest man who ever lived, and did more for the world than any other man, except for Christ." This was an intelligent MD, who was saying this to me.
I told the bishop, "Yes, I'm curious to hear what you have to say." He never came back! I wonder if he researched the facts about JS, and gave up...or what.
No Mormons were "sincere" with me.
No Mormons ever asked me.
No Mormons ever listened, anyway.
All they ever did was preach at us, threaten us, and make demands on us.
"...some attempt to understand?" Not ever.
When we were only inactive, and not resigned, plenty of Mormon has plenty to say to us, in the form of threats and insults. Um, Mormons, are you stupid enough to think that abuse will actually persuade people to not leave! It just underscored my belief that these were evil cult-members, and that my children and I were correct in our decision to leave.
After our formal resignation, the bishop came over and asked me why, as he was assigned to do. I told him why I didn't believe Joseph Smith was not a prophet. He said, "Can I come back later? I will PROVE to you that--next to Jesus Christ--Joseph Smith was the greatest man who ever lived, and did more for the world than any other man, except for Christ." This was an intelligent MD, who was saying this to me.
I told the bishop, "Yes, I'm curious to hear what you have to say." He never came back! I wonder if he researched the facts about JS, and gave up...or what.
No Mormons were "sincere" with me.
No Mormons ever asked me.
No Mormons ever listened, anyway.
All they ever did was preach at us, threaten us, and make demands on us.
"...some attempt to understand?" Not ever.
Exminion,
I am very sorry you have been shunned by your former-mo-fake-friends. I hope you are at peace with that and it no longer hurts.
That is hilarious about the bishop never returning. Thanks for a good laugh!!! ... maybe he’s still compiling evidence, haha, how many years now???
I am very sorry you have been shunned by your former-mo-fake-friends. I hope you are at peace with that and it no longer hurts.
That is hilarious about the bishop never returning. Thanks for a good laugh!!! ... maybe he’s still compiling evidence, haha, how many years now???
It sure does seem confusing for you to use this word "ask" because it suggests that we should be asking questions when the fact is that we've been groomed by the beloved Correlation program to be obedient and not spend our time on activities that might cause us to form Doubts such as asking questions.
Gosh it sure does amazing things to our conversion and retention rates when people see how clueful and truth-seeking we are in this true (i.e. transparent/honest) Church of ours because we focus on obeying the holy Brethren and don't spend time on activities that distract from obedience like asking questions.
Gosh it sure does amazing things to our conversion and retention rates when people see how clueful and truth-seeking we are in this true (i.e. transparent/honest) Church of ours because we focus on obeying the holy Brethren and don't spend time on activities that distract from obedience like asking questions.
"clueful"?
Walk this way...
Walk this way...
Yes, I'm one of those duped members that rightfully became offended because I dubiously believed that the church would be there in my time of need. I couldn't have been more wrong!
Two weeks after half of my home burned, a church leader came by. "If you're not planning to come back, can we have our keys?" The key ring was fully singed and blackened. I walked to the scorched wall and threw them at him.
My parents knew darn well that the church offered little help. We were told to count our blessings and that our families, not the church, was there to assist.
My wife received a salty email from one of the young woman that she had previously taught as a YW adviser. It was very condescending if not brutal. It stated that it was petty to allow a simple misunderstanding about the church to forever jeopardize her eternal salvation. Included was a ten paragraph testimony where she went on and on about Joseph Smith.
My wife then wrote a simple reply of F-- you and F-- JS.
It sailed over this college student's head and she later sent a FB request which my wife denied and had to block.
Two weeks after half of my home burned, a church leader came by. "If you're not planning to come back, can we have our keys?" The key ring was fully singed and blackened. I walked to the scorched wall and threw them at him.
My parents knew darn well that the church offered little help. We were told to count our blessings and that our families, not the church, was there to assist.
My wife received a salty email from one of the young woman that she had previously taught as a YW adviser. It was very condescending if not brutal. It stated that it was petty to allow a simple misunderstanding about the church to forever jeopardize her eternal salvation. Included was a ten paragraph testimony where she went on and on about Joseph Smith.
My wife then wrote a simple reply of F-- you and F-- JS.
It sailed over this college student's head and she later sent a FB request which my wife denied and had to block.
I left cold turkey. For the most part No. The few that wanted to talk were just family members. No one from the ward really wanted to know. 1 person might have given a little effort to say, hey if you want to talk about things we can. I didn't see the point. I let him know why.
The church history was bogus from what I was taught. The orgins of the church can't be fixed into making me think everything is alright.
Why be part of a club with so many restrictions. The cost wasn't worth it. Plus, I was going to move anyway.
If I stayed in an area maybe there could have been a more of a reach out but I kind of doubt it.
The church history was bogus from what I was taught. The orgins of the church can't be fixed into making me think everything is alright.
Why be part of a club with so many restrictions. The cost wasn't worth it. Plus, I was going to move anyway.
If I stayed in an area maybe there could have been a more of a reach out but I kind of doubt it.
Yes. A relief society president called my wife. A high councilman talked to me. All left with families intact. It was a good experience. They were suffering from cognitive dissonance and it was easy to help them out. They just needed some affirmation of their feelings and knowledge. This was over 20 years ago. No one since except on this site.
Oh, that's good to hear, Eric. At least they were questioning and it was the reason they ended up leaving themselves (at least that's what I extracted from your post.)
That's the danger of asking questions when in a cult. It's what leads people out, including TSCC.
When the Relief Society president asked at RS meeting my last Sunday there in 2005, as she gave the lesson that day "does anyone question the Mormon faith or religion, because I know I do?" No one said a thing. There was a very long pause and uncomfortable silence. Finally it was she who broke that silence by saying, "Well neither do I." To save face, avoid further embarrassment by bringing up the subject in RS class, and to give the lesson she'd planned that day (from the manual of course.) If anyone did question we were either too afraid or embarrassed to call ourselves out for fear of being shunned or ostracized. I felt ashamed of myself, and I wonder if she did too for having an about face because no one concurred with her.
It was the last Sunday I attended. I've wondered if she left herself eventually. She was studying to be a surgeon (mid-life career change,) when she was RS president. If she did her due diligence I imagine she has by now.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2019 06:26PM by Amyjo.
That's the danger of asking questions when in a cult. It's what leads people out, including TSCC.
When the Relief Society president asked at RS meeting my last Sunday there in 2005, as she gave the lesson that day "does anyone question the Mormon faith or religion, because I know I do?" No one said a thing. There was a very long pause and uncomfortable silence. Finally it was she who broke that silence by saying, "Well neither do I." To save face, avoid further embarrassment by bringing up the subject in RS class, and to give the lesson she'd planned that day (from the manual of course.) If anyone did question we were either too afraid or embarrassed to call ourselves out for fear of being shunned or ostracized. I felt ashamed of myself, and I wonder if she did too for having an about face because no one concurred with her.
It was the last Sunday I attended. I've wondered if she left herself eventually. She was studying to be a surgeon (mid-life career change,) when she was RS president. If she did her due diligence I imagine she has by now.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2019 06:26PM by Amyjo.
Yes. While I was out hiking one day, I came across a guy and we started hiking together. Turns out he was a local minister. He was really interested in why we left and wanted to know the details. He was very aware that lots of people are turning away from religion. He was totally non-judgmental.
The TBM's in my family don't really want to know why (I believe it's out of an insecure need to be fixated where they're at.)
I haven't felt any obligation, duty, or need to explain my departure to them that would justify my leaving.
As for Mormons in general, they have lives of their own, and the most brainwashed of them are fine where they're at so don't really want to know why anyone would leave because they've already decided us ex-Mos are apostates regardless of our reasoning for leaving.
I did tell my younger sibling he was one of the main reasons I left TSCC in my 30's back in the 90's. He tried to steal my children when he and his wife were infertile. He staged a character assassination against me where I was attending at the time. My family came to my rescue and were all willing to go to court for me if necessary to aid in my defense should it have come down to that.
I disowned him during that time. He denied he'd tried doing that, but we knew better. My dad called a family council with him, my other brothers and my dad when they converged in Salt Lake City for something (don't know what all that was, I was back East.) And told him in no uncertain terms to lay off and back off and leave me alone. He did. He's done some bad ass stuff since then so his begging for forgiveness back then, kind of got negated when he pulled the same crap all over again (deja vu!) 20 some years later. Fool me once, shame on him. Fool me twice, bye bye birdie.
He's been a stake missionary president. He fancies himself a future GA. He's got the personality of one (big ego and all.) And just as manipulative. If anyone could drive someone away from TSCC, it would be my little brother, without even knowing the factual history that cracks that shelf in two.
Mormons don't really care why other Mormons leave TSCC. They really don't want to know IMO. The brainwashing doesn't leave room for questioning or fact finding. If it did, heaven forbid, it would cause them to start questioning their faith. And the Morbots wouldn't want that to happen, now would they? Brainwashing dulls the senses to wonder and ask why, or the big questions like what the hell am I doing in a cult?
I haven't felt any obligation, duty, or need to explain my departure to them that would justify my leaving.
As for Mormons in general, they have lives of their own, and the most brainwashed of them are fine where they're at so don't really want to know why anyone would leave because they've already decided us ex-Mos are apostates regardless of our reasoning for leaving.
I did tell my younger sibling he was one of the main reasons I left TSCC in my 30's back in the 90's. He tried to steal my children when he and his wife were infertile. He staged a character assassination against me where I was attending at the time. My family came to my rescue and were all willing to go to court for me if necessary to aid in my defense should it have come down to that.
I disowned him during that time. He denied he'd tried doing that, but we knew better. My dad called a family council with him, my other brothers and my dad when they converged in Salt Lake City for something (don't know what all that was, I was back East.) And told him in no uncertain terms to lay off and back off and leave me alone. He did. He's done some bad ass stuff since then so his begging for forgiveness back then, kind of got negated when he pulled the same crap all over again (deja vu!) 20 some years later. Fool me once, shame on him. Fool me twice, bye bye birdie.
He's been a stake missionary president. He fancies himself a future GA. He's got the personality of one (big ego and all.) And just as manipulative. If anyone could drive someone away from TSCC, it would be my little brother, without even knowing the factual history that cracks that shelf in two.
Mormons don't really care why other Mormons leave TSCC. They really don't want to know IMO. The brainwashing doesn't leave room for questioning or fact finding. If it did, heaven forbid, it would cause them to start questioning their faith. And the Morbots wouldn't want that to happen, now would they? Brainwashing dulls the senses to wonder and ask why, or the big questions like what the hell am I doing in a cult?
Amyjo,
That brother of yours is really something. With family like that you don’t need enemies. Glad you cut him off so he can’t mess with you anymore!
That brother of yours is really something. With family like that you don’t need enemies. Glad you cut him off so he can’t mess with you anymore!
Thanks, Mel.
I had people from the local congregation where we were attending during that time coming up to me telling me that the things my brother was saying to the local leadership were so horrible that if he could have murdered me to get my children from me he would have. That's how bad it was.
He was living in Virginia during that episode. I was living in NYC. I didn't know he harbored so much hatred inside. Or his wife coveted my children so much they were willing to murder me metaphorically to the people I associated with @ church, and attempted to do the same with my family. My family knew me well, so they knew my brother was up to no good. Talk about evil begetting evil.
My sister-in-law worked for the CIA back then, actually I believe she still does. He was Navy Intelligence. They were a covert couple who thought they were smarter than the rest of us. Once they set their sights on something (my children for instance,) they were determined to stop at nothing to get them.
He was the baby brother I used to read to when we were children to put him to sleep when no one else did. I watched over him like a mother hen when our mother wasn't around. He was still a spoiled little brat who got away with too much as a child, because our mother let him go unpunished whenever he broke things, or had his frequent temper tantrums (which he did on a nearly daily basis.) He was a difficult child growing up with.
Made moreso by our parents divorce. When he went to live with our mom (the only sibling to do so,) it probably caused him more problems in the long run. His stepdad used to beat him. I found that out one New Year's Eve visiting them. His stepdad told me in front of my brother that was how he "kept him in line." I asked my brother was that true? He nodded his head yes, in fear of my stepdad, too afraid to answer out loud.
He was messed up before he left home. He turned into a narcissistic over-conforming LDS zealot.
But to turn on me like he did, and to harbor so much hatred and I don't know why because I haven't done anything to him to merit that. To try and steal my children when he and his wife were infertile. Then to hide my daughter when she was 22 from me (she ran away from college on the day I was supposed to pick her up.) Leaving me a note in my mailbox she wouldn't be coming home.) She had arranged to hide out at my brother's house without telling me where she was going to. He was lying to cover for her. (She had gotten into some trouble at school, was suspended for graduating on time with her class that spring until she worked things out, and didn't want me to find out about it.)
I had no idea where she had disappeared to. I thought she'd been abducted. I about had a heart attack. I raced to the college 65 miles away in my Volvo station wagon to see what I could find out. The police on campus told me she hadn't run away. They could confirm she left on her own volition. It was the only time in my entire life I had run out of gas in my car going someplace. My tank was on empty in the college parking lot. So the kind police officer drove me to the gas station so I could get a gallon of gas in my Volvo until I could get it to the station to fill it back up.
I was shaking like a leaf driving down the freeway on my way to the college. I thought I was going to die without getting into a car wreck that day.
But my brother? Not a word. She had bought a one-way ticket to his house in Kansas and basically moved in with his family. They were harboring her from me. It was my mother's intuition that led me to believe she was with them (without any proof at all, she could have been anywhere.)
I called him. He denied knowing anything. Big FAT LIAR.
I called my other TBM brother in Idaho - the one who passed away last year. He knew my brother was hiding her. So he spilled the beans. He put the pressure on my brother to give her up and tell me himself that's where she was.
What a effing asshat thing to do.
Daughter had an emotional breakdown while away at college. I can forgive my daughter easier for what has happened to her, than I'll be able to forgive my brother for the damage he caused me and my children. Sneaky conniving person that he is.
I understand my daughter's behavior better than I'll ever be able to figure out what caused him to become the smug, self-righteous jerk he's turned into.
He thinks I owe it to him to forgive and forget. I don't forgive evil or betrayal by my own brother, not once, but twice, thrice, and more times than I can count. I'm not God; I am not a saint. And I'm certainly not Mother Theresa.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2019 11:09AM by Amyjo.
I had people from the local congregation where we were attending during that time coming up to me telling me that the things my brother was saying to the local leadership were so horrible that if he could have murdered me to get my children from me he would have. That's how bad it was.
He was living in Virginia during that episode. I was living in NYC. I didn't know he harbored so much hatred inside. Or his wife coveted my children so much they were willing to murder me metaphorically to the people I associated with @ church, and attempted to do the same with my family. My family knew me well, so they knew my brother was up to no good. Talk about evil begetting evil.
My sister-in-law worked for the CIA back then, actually I believe she still does. He was Navy Intelligence. They were a covert couple who thought they were smarter than the rest of us. Once they set their sights on something (my children for instance,) they were determined to stop at nothing to get them.
He was the baby brother I used to read to when we were children to put him to sleep when no one else did. I watched over him like a mother hen when our mother wasn't around. He was still a spoiled little brat who got away with too much as a child, because our mother let him go unpunished whenever he broke things, or had his frequent temper tantrums (which he did on a nearly daily basis.) He was a difficult child growing up with.
Made moreso by our parents divorce. When he went to live with our mom (the only sibling to do so,) it probably caused him more problems in the long run. His stepdad used to beat him. I found that out one New Year's Eve visiting them. His stepdad told me in front of my brother that was how he "kept him in line." I asked my brother was that true? He nodded his head yes, in fear of my stepdad, too afraid to answer out loud.
He was messed up before he left home. He turned into a narcissistic over-conforming LDS zealot.
But to turn on me like he did, and to harbor so much hatred and I don't know why because I haven't done anything to him to merit that. To try and steal my children when he and his wife were infertile. Then to hide my daughter when she was 22 from me (she ran away from college on the day I was supposed to pick her up.) Leaving me a note in my mailbox she wouldn't be coming home.) She had arranged to hide out at my brother's house without telling me where she was going to. He was lying to cover for her. (She had gotten into some trouble at school, was suspended for graduating on time with her class that spring until she worked things out, and didn't want me to find out about it.)
I had no idea where she had disappeared to. I thought she'd been abducted. I about had a heart attack. I raced to the college 65 miles away in my Volvo station wagon to see what I could find out. The police on campus told me she hadn't run away. They could confirm she left on her own volition. It was the only time in my entire life I had run out of gas in my car going someplace. My tank was on empty in the college parking lot. So the kind police officer drove me to the gas station so I could get a gallon of gas in my Volvo until I could get it to the station to fill it back up.
I was shaking like a leaf driving down the freeway on my way to the college. I thought I was going to die without getting into a car wreck that day.
But my brother? Not a word. She had bought a one-way ticket to his house in Kansas and basically moved in with his family. They were harboring her from me. It was my mother's intuition that led me to believe she was with them (without any proof at all, she could have been anywhere.)
I called him. He denied knowing anything. Big FAT LIAR.
I called my other TBM brother in Idaho - the one who passed away last year. He knew my brother was hiding her. So he spilled the beans. He put the pressure on my brother to give her up and tell me himself that's where she was.
What a effing asshat thing to do.
Daughter had an emotional breakdown while away at college. I can forgive my daughter easier for what has happened to her, than I'll be able to forgive my brother for the damage he caused me and my children. Sneaky conniving person that he is.
I understand my daughter's behavior better than I'll ever be able to figure out what caused him to become the smug, self-righteous jerk he's turned into.
He thinks I owe it to him to forgive and forget. I don't forgive evil or betrayal by my own brother, not once, but twice, thrice, and more times than I can count. I'm not God; I am not a saint. And I'm certainly not Mother Theresa.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2019 11:09AM by Amyjo.
Hi Amyjo,
When you say “I haven’t done anything to him to merit” you are looking at your own behavior to explain him. But it’s only about him, not you—the world for him is just whatever he can take. Sociopath or narcissist, or whatever. He doesn’t care about the feelings of anybody, just wants what he wants.
I hope you do not permit him to screw you again. :(
When you say “I haven’t done anything to him to merit” you are looking at your own behavior to explain him. But it’s only about him, not you—the world for him is just whatever he can take. Sociopath or narcissist, or whatever. He doesn’t care about the feelings of anybody, just wants what he wants.
I hope you do not permit him to screw you again. :(
You're right about that.
I prefer to see it as he was screwing "with" me. He didn't succeed in screwing me over. I called his bluff each and every time.
It's just sad when it's your own damned family who does it. Between him and a con artist uncle who took advantage of our trust ... I had to cut ties with both of them.
My uncle is just how you describe: a sociopath. He takes what he wants and doesn't care who gets hurt in the process. My brother may be more of a narcissist. But there is that aspect to his personality most definitely. His wife is also very manipulative. Between the two of them I don't know which is more than the other. She can be very domineering. During that time they were trying to steal my children I met some women at church in the nursery one day who had been roommates with my SIL at BYU Provo. They just happened to be visiting that Sunday. They couldn't believe I was related to her. They told me what a snob she had been at college. She never co-mingled with any of them. She constantly thought herself better than others, and looked down her nose at all of them. I thought to myself, it sounds just like her! It wasn't personal after all.
As for my uncle, my children were like grandchildren to him. He and my aunt's two daughters both married and divorced. Neither had children. So they adopted mine. We didn't know he was a thief or a con artist until he showed up on our Crimestoppers one year where we live.
Talk about shock of the ages. He didn't need the money. He did it for the thrill and the perks it bought him. Without regard for the jobs it likely cost the tellers in the bank branches he hit day after day, eight or nine branches in all were hit multiple times just where I live when he committed his heist here. And the toll it took on my family didn't seem to phase him at all. Only that he was identified (a con artist's worst fear.)
That being said, I was given warning signs by what could only be a guardian angel or whoever is upstairs watching over us of what was coming, before the events unfolded with that uncle of ours. It was still a tragedy for my family because he and my aunt were very close to us while my kids were growing up. My children became terrified of him after seeing him on Crimestoppers.
Maybe there is a theme there in my family. My uncle's dad had led a double life. No one knows what happened prior to his marrying grandma, except for him and grandma. They carried their secret to their graves.. My mom was their firstborn. She had two birth certificates. One with his actual surname. The second one with his fictitious one he adopted for the rest of his life so the law couldn't catch up to him. Or was it an ex-wife? We just don't know.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2019 06:43PM by Amyjo.
I prefer to see it as he was screwing "with" me. He didn't succeed in screwing me over. I called his bluff each and every time.
It's just sad when it's your own damned family who does it. Between him and a con artist uncle who took advantage of our trust ... I had to cut ties with both of them.
My uncle is just how you describe: a sociopath. He takes what he wants and doesn't care who gets hurt in the process. My brother may be more of a narcissist. But there is that aspect to his personality most definitely. His wife is also very manipulative. Between the two of them I don't know which is more than the other. She can be very domineering. During that time they were trying to steal my children I met some women at church in the nursery one day who had been roommates with my SIL at BYU Provo. They just happened to be visiting that Sunday. They couldn't believe I was related to her. They told me what a snob she had been at college. She never co-mingled with any of them. She constantly thought herself better than others, and looked down her nose at all of them. I thought to myself, it sounds just like her! It wasn't personal after all.
As for my uncle, my children were like grandchildren to him. He and my aunt's two daughters both married and divorced. Neither had children. So they adopted mine. We didn't know he was a thief or a con artist until he showed up on our Crimestoppers one year where we live.
Talk about shock of the ages. He didn't need the money. He did it for the thrill and the perks it bought him. Without regard for the jobs it likely cost the tellers in the bank branches he hit day after day, eight or nine branches in all were hit multiple times just where I live when he committed his heist here. And the toll it took on my family didn't seem to phase him at all. Only that he was identified (a con artist's worst fear.)
That being said, I was given warning signs by what could only be a guardian angel or whoever is upstairs watching over us of what was coming, before the events unfolded with that uncle of ours. It was still a tragedy for my family because he and my aunt were very close to us while my kids were growing up. My children became terrified of him after seeing him on Crimestoppers.
Maybe there is a theme there in my family. My uncle's dad had led a double life. No one knows what happened prior to his marrying grandma, except for him and grandma. They carried their secret to their graves.. My mom was their firstborn. She had two birth certificates. One with his actual surname. The second one with his fictitious one he adopted for the rest of his life so the law couldn't catch up to him. Or was it an ex-wife? We just don't know.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2019 06:43PM by Amyjo.
It was poetic justice that following bro's failed attempt to kidnap my children, he and his wife did end up having four bouncy babies of their own. Each of their children took after their dad in that they have ADHD just like their father did/does. At least nowadays there is a diagnosis for it. There wasn't one when he was a kid.
What goes around ... comes around.
The apples didn't fall far from that tree.
What goes around ... comes around.
The apples didn't fall far from that tree.
Yes, my brother after he had left.
The others just know I'm left in more ways than one.
The others just know I'm left in more ways than one.
I got the visit from the bishop and the SP and was going to start with a belief in the Diana Ross and the Supremes, but a lack of belief in a supreme being, and then work backward to lying, thieving Joseph Smith.
But when I agreed that atheist might be a general term that covered my position, they were kind of happy with that and called it a day.
In retrospect, I think they preferred that rather than having to hear about all that was wrong with the church. That way you're not an enemy of the church, just of ghawd. Big sigh of relief on their part.
But when I agreed that atheist might be a general term that covered my position, they were kind of happy with that and called it a day.
In retrospect, I think they preferred that rather than having to hear about all that was wrong with the church. That way you're not an enemy of the church, just of ghawd. Big sigh of relief on their part.