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Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: April 23, 2019 06:25PM

Since marriage is such a huge part of Mormonism, you'd think they'd be better at teaching about it.

The article linked below has more great truth about marriage and how to have a successful one than I ever heard during my Mormon years. For example:

>>1. Be together for the right reasons
>>Don’t ever be with someone because someone else pressured you to. I got married the first time because I was raised Catholic and that’s what you were supposed to do. Wrong. I got married the second time because I was miserable and lonely and thought having a loving wife would fix everything for me. Also wrong. Took me three tries to figure out what should have been obvious from the beginning, the only reason you should ever be with the person you’re with is because you simply love being around them. It really is that simple.<<

Meanwhile, Mormons tend to go around auditioning people to play the role of Eternal Companion. Getting married is the goal, whereas I think it works better if marriage is one of the options when you realize you want to spend your lives together.

>>3. The most important factor in a relationship is not communication, but respect
>>What I can tell you is the #1 thing, most important above all else is respect. It’s not sexual attraction, looks, shared goals, religion or lack of, nor is it love. There are times when you won’t feel love for your partner. That is the truth. But you never want to lose respect for your partner. Once you lose respect you will never get it back.<<

Mormonism has its criteria for respect. Most of them are about how well you play the Mormon role and serve the institution, not so much about who you are.

>>5. A healthy relationship means two healthy individuals
>>Understand that it is up to you to make yourself happy, it is NOT the job of your spouse. I am not saying you shouldn’t do nice things for each other, or that your partner can’t make you happy sometimes. I am just saying don’t lay expectations on your partner to “make you happy.” It is not their responsibility. Figure out as individuals what makes you happy as an individual, be happy yourself, then you each bring that to the relationship.<<

Mormonism claims the family is the basic unit of a healthy society. But I say you can't have a healthy family without emotionally/mentally healthy individuals. Various Mormons have preached that any two truly faithful Mormons can have a successful marriage. That's baloney.

Anyway, there's a lot of great stuff in the article, lots of things to discuss.

https://qz.com/884448/every-successful-relationship-is-successful-for-the-same-exact-reasons/?fbclid=IwAR3Utah09o0GiJnyjYTEJSBiB2qPMINDxKE-9Z32HVA-QOUN9AX8N-wmxWY

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 23, 2019 08:21PM

So...can you divorce a spouse if he/she won't forgive you for cheating on him/her?



Okay, I was just being silly.

Relationships are tricky business and having the same destination is a good start. ...Except the Celestial Kingdom. That's a horrible destination to be working towards!

Of course this is just conjecture and opinion on my part.

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Posted by: smirkorama ( )
Date: April 28, 2019 03:40PM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Relationships are tricky business and having the
> same destination is a good start. ...Except the
> Celestial Kingdom. That's a horrible destination
> to be working towards!

Great observation! (!!!!)


I was evaluating my life, and what I had learned after several decades of adult living. I was stating my expectations and aspirations at that point in my writing. Independent of me and my efforts, my (mentally ill) spouse at the time was doing the same thing.

I wrote my goals down in my journal. For what ever reason she also wrote her down her goals .....in what was supposed to be my journal that she had appropriated for her use.

As Written down, goals at the time for me were; 1. (being some what facetious) survive until I die. 2. Not get fooled too much along the rest of the way, 3. Stay together (with the person I had married.

More specifically, that is an allusion to the MORmON religion as stated in my number 2 aim, that I intend to apply more generally to any and all con artists that might come my way in the future. As well I had ZERO Use for the MORmON church at that point and consequently ZERO personal ambitions with in its (STUPID) dog and pony show leader ship derby. It was a fairly simple theme fairly well centered on a making and keeping things more simple as time went by.


My mentally ill spouse's personal goals were much MUCH more elaborate, specific, and involved and grandiose (GRANDIOSE), very much centered on doing a myriad of things, as in everything imaginable and conceivable to supposedly bless and enlighten civilization and society and others via my spouse's works (in music, literature, politics, theater, philanthropy and whatever else) ....which was REALLY a means to elevate and glorify my spouse in the eyes of the public. For all of the extensive concern expressed about a desire to benefits others, any mention of me was Noticeably completely absent. There were over 20 goals mentioned by my spouse. On a MORmON style note, Joseph Smith could/ would have been proud to have authored the article himself about himself, and to have it as a potential mention of all that he would do to so splendidly benefit mankind in his life time.

Back to me, relative to my Number 3. I was certainly made to look like a fool on that count. I was loyal to my spouse WITH OUT the MORmON Context being in place in our marriage because I thought that I had married my spouse because of who I thought she was, NOT just because she was a great MORmON that had been available. I could NOT have been more wrong. I had been fooled. She proved to be completely MORmON through and through and through. Even though she pretended to not care about church style stuff any more, when I was not a MORmON style spouse to suit her MORmON style needs at however supposedly post MORmON stage, she could NOT be rid of me fast enough, even though I was still loyal to her without the fanciful flim flam of MORmON pretentiousness.


WHAT A HUGE DUMB ASS THAT I WAS !!!!!

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Posted by: cuzx ( )
Date: April 23, 2019 10:34PM

olderelder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
the only reason you should ever be
> with the person you’re with is because you
> simply love being around them. It really is that
> simple.<<
>

Thank you for sharing these points, olderelder. Each one makes perfect sense now after nearly forty-two years of marriage.

Looking back, I was REALLY impatient about the whole dating process after my mission. I proposed within two weeks of meeting my wife-to-be and we moved our original wedding date from one year out to five months out. We decided this after she went home from BYU at the end of the semester and I had gone to a study abroad program in Mexico. Crazy, right?

Why were we in such a hurry? What was I thinking after being home just six weeks from a two-year mission in Argentina? The get-married-quick mindset was certainly ingrained in the LDS culture of the 70s. Also, two years of no dating causes a surge of hormonal desire that is difficult to control in the post-mission environment, especially at BYU.

As I said in another post, a little patience and introspection would have made a huge difference in waiting and developing a solid relationship vs. rushing into an outcome that neither one of us was really prepared for. We barely knew each other; her parents were not Mormon and lived 1,800 miles away in the East and mine were mormon (Dad a convert) who lived in Southern California, 650 miles to the southwest.

Our different family and geographical backgrounds created a difficult situation from the beginning. Also, we didn't really know each other's goals for the future and that's a critically important consideration before you enter into marital vows, if you're going to successfully support one another emotionally, mentally, and spiritually, as well as counsel together. It truly undermined the beginning stages of marriage.

Somehow we survived our incompatibilities and we raised a family together. Later in our marriage, I forgave a major indiscretion and she forgave, or at least stuck by me, when I left TSSC.

As an old retired dude and an exmo, my take on life is to live it deliberately, one day at a time; be grateful for each day and practice being present, living in the moment. Listen to other people, show appreciation, and be WITH your loved ones to the extent that you can.

Recently, I was falling into a debilitating funk (losing sleep actually) as I began dwelling on past memories and regretting lost opportunities.

I am working myself out of it. It's an uphill climb.

https://www.essentiallifeskills.net/index.html

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: April 23, 2019 11:53PM

Super-fast courtships--"ingrained in the culture of the 1970s."

Question: are they occurring with that speed nowadays? I get the feeling that more LDS couples are courting and marrying at older ages (20s?), and thus taking more time in the process?

What say you folks?

Lastly, a little pearl of wisdom:
If the courtship was very fast, go for a long engagement.
If the courtship was very long, go for a short engagement.
Of the two, a long courtship/short engagement is preferable, as it's easier to breakoff a dating/courtship relationship than an engagement.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: April 24, 2019 10:48AM

Her husband is 32. He was VERY PATIENT and waited a long time for her. She is a victim of her past. She even got engaged and almost married another guy between dating her husband and then dating him again. They dated for a total of 3 years or more. She was not sure she could possibly ever be happy married. She is. (They are TBMs. She more than him.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2019 10:48AM by cl2.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: April 24, 2019 10:49AM


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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 28, 2019 03:49PM

caffiend Wrote:

> Lastly, a little pearl of wisdom:
> If the courtship was very fast, go for a long
> engagement.
> If the courtship was very long, go for a short
> engagement.
> Of the two, a long courtship/short engagement is
> preferable, as it's easier to breakoff a
> dating/courtship relationship than an engagement.

Agreed. When an informed decision is made, it should be implemented quickly. There's downside to stalling on important but emotional matters.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: April 23, 2019 11:34PM

excellent analysis!!

I note U didn't mention unrealistic expectations, but that would have been reason / blame for Failures, not directly your topic.

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Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: April 24, 2019 08:53AM

From the article:

>>2. Have realistic expectations about relationships and romance<<

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: April 24, 2019 09:06AM

Anytime you hear mormonism and teach in the same sentence it is best to be avoided.

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Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: April 24, 2019 10:25AM

The speedy courtships are still happening. Lately, as we have driven on I-15 past Draper, there are a couple of billboards advertising for a real estate company and they say:"Selling faster than a BYU engagement".

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: April 24, 2019 10:49AM

Possible reason Mormonism doesn't teach much about marriage - sealing is special so because God is in the mix of people nothing man-made, secular, or temporal needs to take precedence to God's dire-erection of the pairing...

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: April 24, 2019 07:47PM

OP posted:

> Various Mormons have preached that any two truly faithful Mormons can have a successful marriage. That's baloney.Various Mormons have preached that any two truly faithful Mormons can have a successful marriage. That's baloney.

In the practical sense of things it is baloney, but in the Abstract....

Compromise is a basic skill in a partnership, business or personal, it reflects RESPECT that olderelder mentions. ChurchCo teaches that compromise is BAD.

In my first marriage, DW first accepted that I (sometimes WE) enjoyed nude recreation; Then, the bp told her that it was WRONG, and that she shouldn't go. That wasn't compromise, and it was a material factor in the end of the marriage.

btw, we most often went week-days when few were around, we spent a lot of time by ourselves.

my stmnt here is that if partners learn compromise about a wide variety of issues, better chances for the marriage (or partnership) to endure. Take away compromise, the differences fester.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2019 07:47PM by GNPE.

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Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: April 24, 2019 09:28PM

In to many relationships one person is doing all the compromising —— and the other one thinks it's fair.

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Posted by: Elizabeth S. ( )
Date: April 25, 2019 03:48AM

Mormon Leaders don't teach the right things about marriage. And, they do teach the wrong things about marriage.

I harken back to old writings in the Joseph Smith Discourses and Brigham Young’s rants where they were known to go to a young woman’s father, informing tell him that his daughter and maybe her sister had to marry him … or a widow with her daughter & it was basically a commandment. This means the Dad can't refuse, he might also might have been part of the sick system. And the women and girls can't refuse, without risk of going to Hell.

Sign me up! (Lol...Not!)

The claim was ‘I had a revelation …'
So these females with no power, obeyed these perverts, anointed authoritarians, who tried to make it all sound Holy and Celestial. When the women protested, they were told they were under the power of Satan for refusing. So that means that a woman who won’t have sex with a man she doesn’t know and doesn’t love, is flawed and under Satan’s power. Isn't that ironic? In some cultures, it would be thought that a women who would quickly lie down with a man would be considered to be a whore.

And since Marriage equals having sex, and since these characters are not all in love with all these women (Polygamy),then why weren't they honest? They should have stopped "spin doctoring" their revelations and say, "I've been commanded to have sex with your 14 year old daughter and your 16 year old. God commands it. Oh who is that? A 12 year old cousin? I'll take her too. We'll do the secret wifery ceremony right here." Very few witnesses.

Pathetically, these old stories lie deep in the psyche of Mormon children and adults alike.

What should be taught by Modern Church Leaders is:

You need to know your partner. You need to like him/her first, then love him/her before you marry. You need to know yourself. You need to be an adult. You need to pursue an education or a start at a career to make money (male and female). You need to be honest and emotionally intelligent. You have to know each other are equals...and yes, you do need to have mutual respect… and compassion. And one person cannot be doing all of the compromising.

And it is not all about having Faith. Faith cannot change something about a person because you want it to change. And Faith can't change someone who does not want to change. You can only change yourself.

You can be attracted to more than one person, in your life, as we all know, but you have to have a connection that's deeper than hormones to launch into a committed, long term marital relationship.

Having the two together is the glue that can hold you together.

In my 30’s, someone told me that sex was the royal road of Karma. A light bulb went on. It’s true.

Sometimes, karma isn’t the good kind of karma; it can send you down a painful, circuitous road for years.
Well, you will get what you pay for. If you marry someone for hormones only and fool yourself into thinking it's love, you won't end up with a satisfying relationship; you’ll probably be miserable and it will end badly.

The church conveniently avoids talking about marital truths & good preparations, to the young probably because it reveals how flawed and horribly wrong the "founders" were. (Not to mention the current leaders of today.) If the founders are wrong, the church isn't true. It's especially abhorrent when purporting to counsel the youth of today.
To me it's negligent, fraudulent and just another form of abuse to reap on young women...and young men.

Mormon Leaders don't teach the right things about marriage. And, they do teach the wrong things about marriage.

I harken back to old writings in the Joseph Smith Discourses and Brigham Young’s rants where they were known to go to a young woman’s father’s home, informing him that his teen daughter and maybe her younger sister had to marry him, like right Now... … or a widow with her daughter & it was basically a commandment. This means the Dad can't refuse because he’s a priesthood holder and, he might also might have been part of the sick system & perhaps he’s one of those polygamists whose done the same thing.
And the women and girls can't refuse, without risk of going to Hell. If everyone disobeys, everyone is going to hell.

Sign me up! (Lol...Not!)

The claim from these early mormons was ‘I had a revelation …’ standing there were his multiple wives all cooking dinner, somewhere, pregnant, nursing or labouring, feeding children and watching from a distance (not to mention his older kids watching from a distance.) Everyone keeping secrets. There seemed to be no shame with some of these multiple partner characters.

So these girls with no power, obeyed these perverts, (anointed church authoritarians), who tried to make it all sound Holy and Celestial. When the women protested, they were told they were under the power of Satan for refusing. So that means that a woman who won’t give sex to a man she doesn’t know and doesn’t love, is flawed and under Satan’s power??

Isn't that ironic? In some cultures, it would be thought that a women who would quickly lie down with a man would be considered to be a whore, or stupid..

And since Marriage equals having sex, THEN and often now, and since these men are not all in love with all these women (Polygamy), then why weren't they honest? They should have stopped "spin doctoring" their revelations and said, "I've been commanded to have sex with your 14 year old daughter and your 16 year old. God commands it. Oh who is that hiding in the corner? Your 12 year old cousin? I'll take her too. She's cute, I think she could make babies when she starts menstruating.
We'll do the secret wifery ceremony right here."

Next, comes the bedding arrangements that all women feared. Who goes first? Arggg. and puke.

Pathetically, these old stories lie deep in the psyche of Mormon children and adults alike. And rarely are the actual details spelled out, because truth is meant to be hidden, be kept secret and buried, even if it destroyed generations of lives with the Abuse of it all.
____________________________________________________________

What should be taught by Modern Church Leaders is … in 2019:

You need to know your partner. You need to like him/her first, then love him/her before you marry. You need to know yourself. You need to have some common interests, things you both enjoy doing together. You need to be an adult. You need to pursue an education or a start at a career to make money (male and female). You need to be honest and emotionally intelligent. You have to know each other are equals...and yes, you do need to have mutual respect… and compassion. And one person cannot be doing all of the compromising.

And it is not all about having Faith. Faith cannot change something about a person because you want to change the person. And Faith can't change someone who does not want to be changed. You can only change yourself.

Therapy might help with some people, to try to un-brainwash what has been planted in our brains, making us fully human and fully alive.

You can be attracted to more than one person, in your life, as we all know, but you have to have a connection that's deeper than hormones to launch into a committed, long term marital relationship.

Having the two together is the glue that can hold you together.

In my 30’s, someone told me that sex was the royal road of Karma. A light bulb went on. It’s true and an idea to respect.

Sometimes, karma isn’t the good kind of karma; it can send you down a painful, circuitous road for years.
Well, you will get what you pay for. If you marry someone for hormones only and fool yourself into thinking it's love, you won't end up with a satisfying relationship; you’ll probably be miserable and fighting, maybe hating each other and it will end badly.

The church conveniently avoids talking about marital truths & good preparations, to the young probably because it reveals how flawed and horribly wrong the "founders" were. (Not to mention the current leaders of today.) If the founders are wrong, the church isn't true.

It's especially abhorrent when purporting to counsel the youth of today as the Lord's anointed. To me it's negligent, fraudulent and just another form of abuse to reap on young women...and young men.

The Church focuses on the avoidance of intimate relations outside of marriage. (That's fair & sensible.) However, they are adamant about getting married as early as possible, not only to avoid premarital sex, (which would be shameful to the highest degree), but to insure that women are birthing as many children as possible. The earlier women are married the more babies they will have, before they learn that they can say no and they can also space their children; it's their choice. If they don't learn this, women, have less power and probably poorer health due to the stress.

If they divorce, the odds are high she will wind up in poverty, or not doing so well, while trying to raise the children, because she doesn't have an education or career or any training.

The only options are to get remarried. The upside is sometimes it does work and maybe she can find a soul mate to marry.

That said, it's not a cake walk for a man either.


And for men, they are burdened with the financial upkeep of possibly more than one family (if they remarry, obviously its possible for them to find a soul mate, as well - if those life lessons are learned.)

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Posted by: Free Man ( )
Date: April 25, 2019 11:32PM

Not sure how much good education does. As I see it, emotion and hormones are driving the train.

You can teach people to not smoke, to eat healthy, to exercise, etc, etc, and they don't do it.

So our instincts to reproduce and survive are in charge.

Men and women want sex, which leads to reproduction. Women want money and resources to have something to feed the kids.

When you think you'll get those fantasies, you get married. Eventually the hormones wear off, especially after kids come.

Besides reproducing, men and women don't generally have much in common. Surprising that many stick together, and of those that do, not that many are thrilled - just using each other.

Marriage as an institution is on the decline. Especially considering the destruction of divorce, which with the internet is more widely known, just as the scam of the church.

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Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: April 26, 2019 10:10AM

Free Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not sure how much good education does.

More good that leaving people ignorant.

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Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: April 26, 2019 10:31AM

Mormonism believes it's a terrible sin to have sex outside of marriage. But jumping into a bad, mismatched, uninformed marriage and probably creating a dysfunctional family and having the whole thing fall apart, leaving a trail of messed up people — just so you can have authorized hormonal gratification? Eh, not smart, but not a sin — even though it does far more damage.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: April 26, 2019 11:28AM

Oversimplification leads one to irrational bias forming.

"Women want money and resources to have something to feed the kids."

Men want to feed kids and be a part of a socially cohesive group. We aren't Spartans in all our groupings...

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Posted by: presleynfactsrock ( )
Date: April 26, 2019 07:54AM

THIS STUDY, AND ARTICLE WHICH RESULTED, WAS FULL OF INSIGHTS AND SPICED WITH FUN HUMOR. Could have used such wisdom and laughs many moons ago.

MANY THANKS FOR TAKING THE TIME TO SHARE, ELDEROLDOG

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: April 26, 2019 11:29AM

Ouch.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 28, 2019 05:58PM

Hey, we know the paean was aimed at olderelder.

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Posted by: smirkorama ( )
Date: April 28, 2019 05:16PM

IF you are asking me, the MORmON take on marriage is Purely delusion based fantasy as in POISON and SICKNESS. Certainly MORmONISM "seals" (locks) and keeps many people/ many couples in marriage to each other ....based on external expectations, fear, and coercion. Then, as long as those marriages are not terminated by a divorce along the way, after the couple is bound to stay together out of habitual inertia or the marriage partner(s) die while still married, then the good old MORmON church rushes in to label those marriages as raving successes that are destined to be "eternal" marriages (even as those marriages had a beginning so the term "eternal" really is NOT technically applicable).

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