To lose a child, what could be worse than this for a parent to outlive their child?

(... not knowing what happened when a loved one goes missing, perhaps ?)

Take for example the case of missing Steven Koechner. He disappeared at the age of 30, last seen on a neighborhood surveillance video in Henderson, Nevada where he parked his car after a two hour drive from his home in Saint George, Utah on December 11, 2009.

Unemployed, down on his luck, his landlord had been hounding him for past due rent he couldn't pay. He hadn't been able to find gainful employment in Saint George after moving there from northern Utah. He was active in church, loved his family. One thing his friends and family were certain about him was that he was not suicidal.

When his car was located by Henderson police all that was found inside were blankets, pillows, and wrapped Christmas presents waiting to be given to his family that Christmas. He was last seen walking away from where he'd parked his car with a package or manila envelope in a residential neighborhood, never to be seen or heard from again.

His family still has hopes of finding him, dead or alive. They haven't given up searching for him. Although another tragedy hit within one year of his disappearance when his father became suddenly ill and died.

When other people suffer Mormons attribute to their not being good enough or because they don't have the gospel, or even as a punishment. When trouble happens to them, it's a test of their faith.

Whatever, this is a tragedy for him and his family. To lose a loved one and not know what happened is a tragic event. I hope they find him to be able to have some closure and find some peace.

http://www.lifedaily.com/story/strange-evidence-in-case-of-missing-utah-man-uncovered-six-years-later/

Steven's field was journalism before he left his job in Salt Lake City for Saint George during the economic recession in 2009.

His father worked as an editor and also served as a bishop where he lived in Utah county. Steven's disappearance may well be what led to the father's sudden illness and death. Whew! It's like a double whammy.

"Rolf Koecher, 61, may have suffered from toxic shock syndrome, said Clipper owner and publisher Gail Stahle. Stahle said Koecher felt ill for days. He missed work Wednesday but hoped to return Thursday, Stahle said.

Then Koecher's wife, Deanne, called Stahle on Thursday morning to say her husband died. Deanne Koecher said her husband arrived at a hospital and doctors found he had almost no white blood cells and evidence of a bacterial infection, Stahle said."

https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=51232646&itype=cmsid

Steven's family had offered him money to help cover his rent leading up to his disappearance from Saint George. He was too proud to accept their help. So sad.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2019 08:04AM by Amyjo.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Steven's disappearance may well be what led to the father's
> sudden illness and death. Whew! It's like a double
> whammy.
>
> "Rolf Koecher, 61, may have suffered from toxic
> shock syndrome, said Clipper owner and publisher
> Gail Stahle.

Point of Order: Toxic shock syndrome is caused by a bacterial infection. Unlikely that heartbreak, therefore, caused or contributed to the father's sudden death.

From the Mayo Clinic:

"Possible signs and symptoms of toxic shock syndrome include:

A sudden high fever
Low blood pressure (hypotension)
Vomiting or diarrhea
A rash resembling a sunburn, particularly on your palms and soles
Confusion
Muscle aches
Redness of your eyes, mouth and throat
Seizures
Headaches"


https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/toxic-shock-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20355384


Of course a child's disappearance causes all kinds of emotions and challenges for a parent. But developing a deadly bacterial infection isn't one of them. Perhaps could be a contributing cause depending on the source and reason for the infection, which could include:


"Having cuts or burns on your skin
Having had recent surgery
Using contraceptive sponges, diaphragms or superabsorbent tampons
Having a viral infection, such as the flu or chickenpox"


Obviously, these causes would be independent of the situation with the missing loved one. But perhaps a parent or other relative or friend would neglect themselves despite having one of the above (or other) conditions, and would delay seeking medical treatment, leading to the development of TSS in susceptible persons. I would guess that would be very rare indeed.

I do sympathize, obviously, with anyone who goes through such a life-altering and emotionally-charged event. Cannot imagine the anguish it causes.

There are countless sad stories on this Earth of ours. That is for certain.

Religion causes some of them. Others are random human realities.

All hurt.

Badly.

I believe the stress of the loss of his son also contributed to a weakened immune system. I know mine has become weakened since my daughter's disappearance. It gives an increased rise to infections and other diseases as a result.

That goes part and parcel with the territory.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2019 04:36PM by Amyjo.

I had to go on disability the year following my daughter's disappearance.

I've suffered from cancer since she disappeared.

And I'm currently getting over a serious bacterial infection. I didn't realize that is how Toxic Shock Syndrome develops. Scary science!

My daughter is still living though. That much is confirmed. She has a Borderline Personality Disorder she inherited from my ex-husband. She was such a sweet girl growing up, and a wonderful, loving daughter before I lost her in early adulthood.

I've had to deal with that as well. My therapist thinks she may still come around. Some do by their thirties if they're going to do the work needed to change. But she's alive. So there's hope.

The Mormon Bishop in a small town near me was killed in a horrific traffic accident. There was a great outpouring of sympathy for his wife and young children. Also of course it was understood that he "had a great mission to perform in the spirit world."
If the same thing were to happen to apostate Shinehah it would be understood that that's just what happens when you leave the church.

I heard that countless times too growing up in the Morridor.

You got that eggzactly right!

There are always going to be those TBM's who have a hard time wrapping their head around the idea that their apostate friends and relatives are happier and doing better outside the cult than we did living that lie.

Their bad. :)

There was a Mormon family from Henderson, Nevada who was killed just outside of Las Vegas in a really bad accident on the I-15 on the way back from Utah a couple of years ago. I only found out about it because some step family members of mine lived in the same ward as that family, and they posted a link to an article about it on Facebook.

That's always going to be a tragedy, no matter who it happens to.

Just awful. It's hard to make sense out of the senseless.

used to work for this man's father at the newspaper in Clearfield. Can't think of the name. My friend (more my husband/ex's friend) died a few years ago in a traffic accident, so I no longer hear about this case.

I CANNOT imagine having a child of mine disappear. Have you watched the episodes of Disappeared on ID Discovery?

Thing about it is for the man above who died in a traffic accident, depending on what level of royalty he was in the ward, the people might decide that he had done something and he was being punished, and then it becomes a whole other situation.

We (especially me) were blamed for our situation because we went inactive. They like to think my ex chose to be gay AFTER we went inactive, so what happened to us was deserved in their eyes.

When my TBM brother hid my daughter as she ran away from college in 2010, I wondered what he thought he was gaining from doing that? He was the one who tried stealing my children when they were infants.

A couple of years later in 2012 when my daughter returned from a year teaching English in France, the Mormon bishop and his wife where we live also "hid" her at their house for six months, when she ran away from my home yet again because she didn't have a job on her return or a car. Or prospects as she'd just returned home. And decided she didn't want to be stuck here while I was working two jobs to keep a roof over our heads supporting the household. I couldn't be both places to run her everywhere, and at the time I only had one car as my children lived out of state, and had for years. I'd taken out a retirement loan to help her get to France and back, and buy her clothing prior to her travels. Because I didn't jump and buy her a car the minute she moved back home, she ran away again within a month of her return from France. She changed her identity each time she disappeared.

Both TBM brother who is a manipulating, deceptive monster IMO. And the bishop and his wife were real creeps back in 2005 when she came to my house demanding I return my daughter to TSCC and proceeded to assault me in front of my children because I pulled her out of there when I found out the Young Women president and the bishop's wife had been intercepting my daughter's mail from our house to theirs so I was not aware she had been applying behind my back to BYU Provo at that time. She was a junior in high school who had just been diagnosed that spring with a serious learning disability, and had some health problems that caused her to nearly blackout, or to blackout.

I had to rush her to the doctor on occasion. As my daughter, and a minor, I wasn't about to let her move that far away to college where she wouldn't have medical attention and doctors and hospital/s nearby if she needed it. And my health insurance coverage. I had told this to those women at the church before all that came down. As mother to mothers. And yet they disrespected me and ignored my wishes for my daughter's health and welfare to go behind my back and pull that sh*t on me. That was why I quit church (that and for the shelf completely breaking when it did.)

Between my brother and the bishop and his freaky wife, I lost a daughter not once, but twice she disappeared with their help and blessing. They cared not one whit what happened to me emotionally. To them it was a just and due punishment that I didn't know where she was or what had happened to her.

My brother was just being the same spoiled little brat he was when we were children. He had four children of his own by the time my daughter left college. It wasn't about needing another child of his own. It was just pure hatred or narcissism on his part to go along with her and hide her from me. As far as I knew she could have been abducted, kidnapped, sold into white slavery, or worse.

Same for the bishop and his wife. I only found out she was there by doing my own private sleuthing and hiring a private detective. If not for that, they didn't care if I thought she was dead or not. When I called the bishop's house he refused to let me speak to my daughter. He had all the power because she was by then an adult so both of them were playing me like a fiddle. He also used to ogle my daughter when we went to that ward before we resigned in 2005. He would ogle her up and down. She was a very pretty girl and young woman. His wife was, I hate to say it, a dried up old prune of a woman.

You can imagine the sheer horror I went through wondering what in the holy hell he might have been doing to her for those six months they kept her in hiding at their house that I wasn't supposed to know about her being there if not for my having hired a private detective to find her for me?

He and his wife were converts to Mormonism. He took everything to heart, including I'm certain, the doctrine of polygamy. Because the way he ogled my daughter the times I watched him doing it at church I saw a dirty old man with lust on his mind. The same way Joseph Smith must have looked at some of his young charges that he took a liking to. That was the way that effing bishop looked at my daughter. Then to hide her from me at his house for six months? She moved overseas when he and his wife retired to Utah. Who knows what went on behind closed doors?

Between him and my TBM brother, I about died each time. The Mormons can screw other people over. And that's okay with them. But let the tables turn and that's when reality sets in. They're not any better than those who walk away with good cause.

Reading about this poor father who may well have died because of a broken heart over losing his son, I can relate. That he was a bishop of all things. Well, I am trying to empathize, because like him, I'm a parent too.

Not all bishops or TBM brothers are evil bastards. Not all of them anyway. But enough to question the rest of their motives IMO. That Mormon bishop and his freaky arse wife moved to Pleasant Grove, the same town where Martin McNeil aka Psychopath Bishop hailed from. Where there's smoke there's fire, it's said.

I believe I know what that "Toxic Shock Syndrome" feels like that Rolf Koechner suffered from. I went through it with my daughter. Only I survived. But it's hell to go through.

My brother still doesn't understand why I've disowned him. Not once, but twice. He just doesn't comprehend the consequences of his actions. Or how destructive he is - or worse, maybe he does, and doesn't care. Hmm.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2019 02:01PM by Amyjo.

what you've gone through because of these people. I've had interference by mormons, too, but not to that extent. My daughter was 20 when she went back and already living away from home, but after she went back, I've had interference as I've posted about it. I'm always made to look like the bad mom. They always tell me what a wonderful person she is and I'm like, "I wonder who raised her!"

There is no excuse for what these people did to you and your daughter. They victimized her and they don't even get it. They've got it all figured out and we're just clueless about our own children.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2019 09:24AM by cl2.

They did more damage than they did good, Cl2.

I think they reveled in it. They keep their children close to their breasts while they pulled that sh*t with me. It goes to show where their hearts are at. (Hint: what hearts?)

Charity never faileth.

I raised my children well. They were taught right from wrong. The choices they make as adults are theirs to own. I have to separate myself from them now that they're on their own.

But the Mormon interference is something I will never understand why and how they can be so controlling and so destructive. They never could own me. That was their biggest frustration I think. Was I couldn't be bought. The older I got the wiser I became. TSCC was something I literally outgrew.

But the damage was done by then because of what they'd done to my children (or tried to do.) I've been doing damage control since. Then I had to let go at some point, like letting go of children's hands when they leave home. Just never their heart strings. That bishop and his wife are a real piece of work.

As for myself, I've dealt with the empty nest thing. Now it's mom time. :)

You know, Cl2, there is a 5 minute episode on Investigation Discovery for this fella, I came across this morning. It's really just a video clip. Hardly worth showing.

As for the title of this thread:

We know that!

We were there! :)

Mormons are not only not "exempt from suffering", they also cause it, the leaders due to their harsh beliefs and policies, members due to buying into and living out said policies that can hurt their children and other family members as well as neighbours and workmates.

We all know how that goes. Nagging, preaching, judging, shunning, lying.

For starters.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2019 04:15PM by Nightingale.

The exception is that Mormons are often the last ones to admit to it.

They don't mind causing it to others. Until it happens to them, and they get a dose of their own medicine. If they have any empathy at all. There are a fair number who do not have any.

There is no loss like losing a child though. I've lost both parents. I've lost two children. It is far worse to lose a child. And to a cult just makes it more bizarre, twisted, and evil.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've lost two children. It is
> far worse to lose a child. And to a cult just
> makes it more bizarre, twisted, and evil.

Amen to that.

And, yes, they very seldom, if ever, admit to the pain and suffering they have caused.

Boy, the pain and suffering in my life sure decreased when I finally chose to leave mormonism. All the control they want to exert over your life!!

Amen to that, Cl2!

Been there, done that, like you have.

They still inflicted damage after leaving.

Mormonism is the gift that "keeps on giving" whether we send it back to receiver or not. Especially true when it runs in the family.

Saying a prayer for the Chabad Jews in Poway, CA tonight.

No one deserves to die that way, while praying for world peace and providing community service.

Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech ha'olam.

My cousin on Maui posted this overnight,

"Here we go again. Six months later to the day. It’s getting so scary to be a Jew. Even on Maui. We are not safe anywhere. But nothing shall stop us going to synagogue and being proud Jews. No gun toting murderer will ever kill the essence of who we are. My heart breaks for the victims."

She lost her grandparents, aunts, and uncles, cousins in the Shoa. Her mother, of blessed memory, was sent on the kindertransport train at a young age to England where she was raised by distant relatives or she too would have perished.

"Never Again" is the mantra of the Jews as they set about rebuilding their lives, homes, and a future. As peace loving people everywhere dedicate their lives to understanding why some people hate enough to murder others, there is no room for it here or anywhere as long as people stand united in condemning it and standing up to violence. Hate crimes are pure evil. It does not belong anywhere.

There are placards and signs throughout my region on yards and homes that read "Hate has no home here." It is inter-faith and non-denominational. People have taken up the banner, regardless of beliefs or religion. I hope they are elsewhere.

Saying a prayer for people who were killed while praying kind of speaks to the efficacy of prayer.

Dag is on a roll.

What about having thoughts for people killed while thinking?

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2019 01:21AM by kathleen.

We live in a bad time. Demons from the past have come back to life.

If my yarmalke has a propeller on top, is that kosher?

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If my yarmalke has a propeller on top, is that
> kosher?


only if it really propells you upward.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We live in a bad time. Demons from the past have
> come back to life.


Yeah and they're posting on RFM.

From time to time. . .

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2019 01:22AM by kathleen.

Isn't it sad?

Some of my Jewish ancestors felt the same way in Germany. So they "assimilated" to go "incognito" before and leading up to the Holocaust. Some went so far as to migrate to other countries.

The Nazis didn't care if they converted to Christianity. They smoked them out anyway. I had cousins who became deists, theists, socialists, secular, whatever. It was of no import as long as they had any Jewish ancestry. Hitler's formula was if they were 1/4 or more Jewish descent.

Even very blonde, anglo-Saxon types who fit the German ideal of the superior Aryan race and didn't look at all Jewish but were, were targeted as they tried to hide among their fellow citizens believing no one would notice they were Jewish.

It was fear that fueled the hate mongols. Hitler knew how to stoke it and stoke it he did. Propaganda was used back then much the same way it is used today without the force of mass media at our fingertips like we have it now via the Internet.

One of my cousins, a Holocaust survivor, although not famous in his own right, was friends of the family of Anne Frank. Following the WWII, the Center for Mass Media and Journalism at the University of Amsterdam was founded by him and named after him. His children were Dutch Resistance Fighters. His daughter saved her father from the gas chambers using forged and authentic documents. She also saved Hollands most prominent Jewish historian who wrote an important book following the war, "Ashes in the Wind," by Jacques Presser. He was the voice for the lost and fallen Dutch Jews who had no voice. So he spoke for them. That book was his only one published in both English and Dutch.

After his wife was rounded up one day by a razzi raid by the nazi police in Amsterdam, he never saw her again. He went into deep hiding in the Dutch countryside. My cousin took him his materials he needed to continue his work (at grave risk to herself and the families who were hiding him.) She and her brother saved many others, as did the other Dutch Resistance Fighters of their time. Her family spent Sundays with Anne Frank's family before the war. Their families moved together from Germany to Holland in 1933 believing they'd be safe from Germany there.

That's how wrong they were!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2019 06:35PM by Amyjo.

"When the Jewish people say Never Again, they mean it
By Leah Rosenberg - April 7, 2019

Never Again is not just a phrase the Jewish people say without meaning. It is more than just two words. It is an attitude. And it is a truth.

After the Holocaust, so much of the world promised Never Again. The suffering that the Jewish people endured is unfathomable. 6 million Jewish lives were murdered by one of history’s most vicious men. The world promised Never Again.

But antisemitism is still ever so present. Attacks against Jews across the world is all too common. Except now, we have rebuilt our homeland. The Jews are no longer homeless. And even if the world forgot their promise, the Jewish people did not.


Eagles Over Auschwitz

The Jewish people have kept to their promise of Never Again. The state of Israel protects its people, religion, and culture. The Israel Defense Forces cannot afford to allow another Holocaust. And they have kept their word to defend the Jewish people. Flying Israeli F-15s over Auschwitz is just one proof of Hitler failing. Hitler is gone, and the Jewish people are still here. He tried to murder the entire nation of Israel, but now they have created an even stronger nation. He wanted the Jewish people to be homeless, alone, and disappear from the world, but they have a home and are making their presence known.

So people can boycott Israel. People can protest against the Jewish people. But when the nation of Israel says ‘Never Again,’ that is a promise. And the Jews hold onto promises for thousands of years."

https://israelunwired.com/when-the-jewish-people-say-never-again-they-mean-it/

But can people take a shot at Recovering from Mormonism?

I think thats only allowed on Thursdays and Saturdays now.

I'm in recovery from Mormonism, aren't you?

I can also mourn when people mourn for the loss of life when someone dies.

This site is open to other faith and not just Atheist like yourself.

The discussion was progressing about the tragedy in Poway. Where have you been?

Hey, it's part of the human condition!

You see what you want to see and so on...

I seriously don't see that what happened in Poway gives people with ties to Judaism any need to tell RfM all about it. It's my view that it dilutes what RfM was designed to do. According to a Google search, "151,600 people die each day." (Not to worry, it's less than half the number of births!)

If this were a Jewish themed board, the topic would be a natural. But this isn't a Jewish themed board. I sincerely believe that this is just you, posturing. Lots of posturing. TONS of posturing! I asked some cousins (none famous) and they agreed.

I have over 100 cousins. I'm thinking of starting threads about each one in detail to entertain myself. I think I can make each one tangentially about RfM and even throw in all my Google searches too!


I had this one cousin once, at band camp.....

Lucky dog. All the good stuff happens at band camp!

Suffering is very tied into this topic and is part of the human condition.

Also can be tied into Mormonism and the Nazi Final Solution in Germany when Mormons colluded with the Nazis to commit genocide against the Jews.

"David C Nelson, PhD presents some fascinating storys of Mormons living in Germany in Nazi Germany as well as how the memory of those stories has been handled. These stories are covered more comprehensively in his award winning historical monograph, "Moroni and the Swastika"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp4WkWp7bVg

Your response suggests to me that rubber bands do not last long in your possession.

But I speak only for myself.

Nor eyes nor ears in yours.

But I do have a mouth!!

No, you have diarrhea of the mouth, and constipation of the brain.

There is a cure for it though. Put a sock in it!

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, you have diarrhea of the mouth, and
> constipation of the brain.
>
> There is a cure for it though. Put a sock in it!


I hope this isn't pulled. I need the inspiration...

Since you've been stalking and harassing me on every single thread of mine, it is timely advice. Although you don't listen or take advice, so I don't expect you to do that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2019 02:56PM by Amyjo.

You are a rude woman--and not even rude with class. Where others might employ a subtle barb, you go right to the juvenile argot of the schoolyard. I'm waiting for "sticks and stones" or "I know you are but what am I." With this post you come very close.

Oscar Wilde once complained about those who divide the world into two opposing categories. His response was that there are only two types of people in the world: the interesting and the boring.

You are a crass woman. You only jump in to start a war.

You have nothing else to add here.

I supported you the other day and you reacted with vicious attacks. Nightingale and others gently pointed out that I was on your side and you reacted by having her post removed.

You are a self-centered little person, too immature to admit error and too insecure to entertain others' ideas.

It's sad, really. For a few months I'd been trying to bridge the gap, and then when I offered my sincerest support you reacted with a bombardment that has subsequently engulfed others as well.

So why don't you go to work and get these posts removed, too? Isn't that what you do--throw the checkers board on the floor and go weeping to mommy?

Not to make too big a deal about it, but I don't see her as a weeper.

I see her sweeping the checkers' board to the floor and stomping off to mommy to complain that her opponent is a big poopie head.

Yes, I unfortunately do not have a Judic to keep me up to date on schoolyard eloquence. I defer to your better understanding of She Who May Not Be Named and her milieu.

In grade school there was a girl, Deanne, who would hit us, me in particular, and then announce loudly, "You can't hit me back because I'm a girl."

I'm not sure why I felt like sharing that true story at this time . . .

If I ever meet you, I'll employ that tactic too.

PS: She probably liked you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2019 03:21PM by Lot's Wife.

Hard to build a fan base with insults. Very difficult to get a following, much less sponsors.

If you must though, something that Mark Twain might write would go along way rather than "diarrhea of the mouth and constipation of the brain."




Now, what were we all saying about recovering from Mormonism? I forget . . .

I'm a believer. That's who I am.

I'm here as an ex-Mormon, not as an Atheist.

If I can help someone else out of the cult of Mormonism, that is why I am here.

I listened to this when David Nelson first delivered his lecture at the ex-Mormon conference in 2015 via YouTube or video conference, on the topic of Moroni and the Swastika. It was my first introduction to the Mormon complicity with Nazi involvement in the Holocaust, all the way to J. Reuben Clark in Salt Lake City. It is here recorded full length on YouTube, for anyone interested in listening to it, who may have missed it before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIEAooFemCE