... to their faces ... She will do what she needs to do after their death.

Without losing a beat. Without any respect for their faith at all. She is going to posthumously baptize them as Mormons regardless of their beliefs and wishes, period.

Pretty disgusting if that is what she's taught to do, say, and repeat as a ritual of TSCC.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2019 11:57AM by Amyjo.

But her head is clearly up her a** .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2019 12:20PM by lurking in.

It's the equivalent of the Wicked Witch of the West telling Dorothy "I'll get you, my pretty. And your little dog too!" Cackling fading away ...

And we know how that ended !

It's an offensive gesture on the part of a Mormon to baptize and endow on behalf of dead relatives who wished that such not be done for them, but in the end it's also an empty and meaningless gesture that amounts to nothing more than mumbo jumbo.

I would think anyone she says that to would find it so offensive she is alienating her living friends and family long before they're deceased!

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would think anyone she says that to would find
> it so offensive she is alienating her living
> friends and family long before they're deceased!


I would find the relative's behavior thoroughly loathesome, and I would probably choose to remove her from any significant part of my life, but in the end, temple ordinances are nothing more than hocus pocus. I would be offended, but nothing done in the temple by proxy in my name or in anyone else's will ever have any effect on me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2019 06:59PM by scmd1.

scmd1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amyjo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I would think anyone she says that to would
> find
> > it so offensive she is alienating her living
> > friends and family long before they're
> deceased!
>
>
> I would find the relative's behavior thoroughly
> loathesome, and I would probably choose to remove
> her from any significant part of my life, but in
> the end, temple ordinances are nothing more than
> hocus pocus. I would be offended, but nothing done
> in the temple by proxy in my name or in anyone
> else's will ever have any effect on me.

I would like to believe that too, SCMD, but my life experience has shown me there is some kind of karma or magic in my life I have not been able to explain, other than events that have possibly occurred in prior lifetimes possibly and/or other dimensions of time and space.

Such as the possibility of reincarnation and past relationships carrying over into future lives and times. Whether our having been Mormon in this lifetime will play a role in other lives to be, or how we live our lives I can only wonder. If our families are on the other side, which I believe some of their spirits reside, (not all perhaps because I believe there is a sorting process of where we go based on life choices, not to do with Mormonism, but good v. evil.) I do believe there is karma in the Universe.

And that some of the life lessons of this life may be a continuation of past lives. And that we're on one long continuum of time on the thread of past, present, to future. There's no need to wait for eternity because we're living it now.

It's just some of those Mormon acquaintances are so utterly dysfunctional it does sort of beg the question why? Who is saving who there?! If anyone?! Mormonism seems like a failed religion to me as much as it's a cult.

> I would like to believe that too,
> SCMD, but my life experience has
> shown me there is some kind of
> karma or magic in my life I have
> not been able to explain, other
> than events that have possibly
> occurred in prior lifetimes
> possibly and/or other dimensions
> of time and space.
>

And it's your karmic impression that dead-dunking by a man-made organization, that you recognize has zero connection to any ghawd you recognize, has the power to mess with your life's progression?

What if someone makes a VooDoo doll of you and baptizes it every Monday morning? What if a witch gets a hair from your head and uses it to put a spell on you? There are so many spiritual calamities that could befall a ghawd-fearing woman,so it is strange that you would fixate on one over which you will absolutely no control...unless you pass back through the veil and put the fear of Amyjo into those cretinous mormon relatives!

There's much more about our lives we cannot explain or rationalize away than we can.

I don't even know if death or the spirit world after we die is going to provide those answers. And if reincarnation is a possibility or a probability, which I believe it well might be, then we are destined to repeat life after life again and again.

Whether we want to, like it or not.

So there are lessons for us on this path we are on to be learned, possibly. Or we are just here for someone else's enjoyment. Maybe we ourselves are not the benefactors of the great and powerful deity who oversees our lives.

Science is now hypothesizing we are living inside of a gigantic matrix. Like pixel characters in a video cast. We are just along for the ride of a much larger puzzle.

As for the soul, that is what I continue to believe survives death and continues after this life is over.

It is the dead dunking I find reprehensible. Maybe because I know it's a cult ritual and doesn't serve any real useful purpose other than to bemuse and confuse those who participate in it, that to me makes it more vile than it already is.

It should be as offensive to the living as it is to the deceased.

Being in a cult likewise and any of its rituals goes without saying. But the baptizing for the dead is the most absurd of them all. It should make the spirits groan, and good men everywhere shudder.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2019 10:14AM by Amyjo.

I think you should be discussing all of your carefully crafted and thought out points with your therapist.

You're presenting 'wackadoodle' commentary to a group of of people who in the main will not be receptive. You should consider finding a more wu-wu locale.

Anyone who knows a thing about cult rituals knows that Mormonism and baptisms for the dead is one of its worst kind.

Likewise, for someone who studies cults, can study their way out of one.

The harm I see by the practice is how offensive it is. And that it is reprehensible and would like to see it cease and desist. Will that happen? Likely not before pigs can fly.

I'm surprised there is so little about Mormonism you don't find reprehensible.

Yeah, I discuss Mormonism with my therapist. But we have more important things to talk about. Like my children, family. And life in general. Religion is just a small part of that in the bigger picture. We even talk about his family sometimes. :)

I come to RfM to kvetch about Mormonism.

Why are you here exactly?

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyone who knows a thing about cult rituals knows
> that Mormonism and baptisms for the dead is one of
> its worst kind.
>
> Likewise, for someone who studies cults, can study
> their way out of one.
>
> The harm I see by the practice is how offensive it
> is. And that it is reprehensible and would like to
> see it cease and desist. Will that happen? Likely
> not before pigs can fly.
>
> I'm surprised there is so little about Mormonism
> you don't find reprehensible.
>
> Yeah, I discuss Mormonism with my therapist. But
> we have more important things to talk about. Like
> my children, family. And life in general. Religion
> is just a small part of that in the bigger
> picture. We even talk about his family sometimes.
> :)
>
> I come to RfM to kvetch about Mormonism.
>
> Why are you here exactly?

He's here to recover from mormonsim. The better question for you

amyjo is why are you here? Its been obvious from the beginning

of your arrival here that you were never a mormon. So, why are

you here? were you kicked off of other boards and have no other

place to go?

My Presbyterian born mom, after she converted, submitted all her deceased family names to be dead dunked. I doubt she told any of their families about it either. She was a bit of a zealot after she drank the Kool-Aid.

My mom was too, LR.

She converted after she married my dad. Because she'd already been doing her genealogy since she was ten years old, she'd amassed quite a bit of it by her 20's and 30's.

So by then, she had quite a few hundreds of names to add to the temple records, if not more.

Her patriarchal blessing told her that her ancestors would come to her in the eternities to thank her for doing their work for them in the temple.

Well, on the Jewish side of things, those records have been "expunged" on the Family Search site, since the Jews took the Mormons to task about that in 1995. Those records cease to exist after my great great Jewish grandparents who came to America in the mid-1800's.

I'm sure the Mormons have kept them in their secret vaults though in SLC. Mom submitted them in the 1960's. ETA: I just re-checked Familysearch, and noted that some of them have been added back in most likely by one or more of my immediate genealogy minded family members. However there are errors there so I shall be correcting them based from the Jewish family website that my cousin made. He also made mini-biographies for many of our relatives, which I thought was really impressive of him, before he died two years ago. He did that in his retirement years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2019 06:58PM by Amyjo.

they should keep their mouths shut. It is offensive. I'm sure my daughter has plans, but she has never said it to us.

Agreed. It is highly offensive.

Anyone who says it in passing to religious friends and family members of other faiths is either not thinking, or of very low IQ. Or there is that other thing called Emotional IQ.

And there are quite a few people missing chinks in that armor as well.

Insensitive goes without saying.

I'd crown someone if they said that to me with a crown of thistle!

Like so many of us with close relatives who are drinking the kool-aid, you are just as likely as the rest of us to be dead-dunked. Have them put nose-plugs in your coffin...

A pea-shooter might work better.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Like so many of us with close relatives who are
> drinking the kool-aid, you are just as likely as
> the rest of us to be dead-dunked. Have them put
> nose-plugs in your coffin...


Or an industrial strength deoderizer.

It doesn't matter anyway... they'll all be dead.

Whats the difference?

It matters more to the living, when they're/we're living.

TSCC baptized Elie Wiesel posthumously before he died.

He took that very personally. I don't think he wanted to be dead dunked after he was gone, either.

Mormons assisted the Nazis murdering the Jews during the Holocaust. Then couldn't wait to start baptizing them after they were dead.

That is schizophrenic. As for the Jews it is just as bad as forcing their religion on them while their living.

Only when you're dead, they don't have any say at all. It's like shoving it down their throats.

Like Christianity did to them for centuries. Mormons do it to everyone though. They don't discriminate, Jew and non-Jew alike.

The question was posed: "What's the difference?" You've anguished on and on about it, but how a person has to go out of his or her way to force themselves to be outraged about the fact that they've been mistakenly dead-dunked while alive, or will be dead-dunked after they die.

I used to wonder if my mom could tell when I accidentally stepped on a crack...

What's the difference, they'll be dead anyway?

Ever heard of desecrating the dead after they're gone?

To a Jew or someone in life who had no desire to be a Mormon then, baptizing them one after they're gone is another form of desecration to their memory.

Just because you think it's a silly practice. To other more serious, thoughtful and sensitive people it isn't.

Even if it doesn't matter to you, it matters to others.

Good fences make good neighbors.

Forcing religion on someone else is not respecting anyone's boundaries. It goes beyond any norm of civility.

Flaunting it in someone else's face is disgusting.

Only fanatical Mormons who take their religion seriously would do that, and it's a ritual for an afterlife that is obviously bogus. It's annoying and disrespectful, but so is a lot of religion when people talk about their weird beliefs to people who don't really want to hear their it. In real life we are usually expected to be "respectful" while a religious person slams gays or condemns sinners for example.

Do you feel the same offense about fanatic Jews who also "do what they need to do" and don't vaccine their kids? Now THAT's worthy of disrespect. They don't care how it impacts others and it actually can kill people.

(I'm not excluding other nutjobs types who potentially harm others by not vaccinating. I bring up the Jewish pocket because that was one of the biggest outbreaks and is a religious decision.)

So, it seems odd to me to show outrage over such a dumb Mormon practice and comment by a Mormon fanatic when we should be more outraged when there is actual harm being done.

No, there isn't any other religion that baptizes an entire world population against their will posthumously.

None. Nada. Nicht.

Just because you are an Atheist doesn't mean all other religions are on par with Mormonism. Mormonism is unique to that practice, and Mormonism is a cult.

You should know the difference.

And yes there is harm done because it is both offensive and outrageous whether to a Jew or a non-Jew who takes it seriously.

Just because you don't, there are plenty of others who do.

You're creating stick figures to attack.

Where is the claim that other religions dead dunk?

Where is the claim that all other religions are on a par with los mormones?

Overwrought is the word that comes to mind. Dramatically overwrought.

Other religions do not engage in said practice.

Mormonism is unique to that cult ritual, and it is not mainstream.

It should be frowned upon.

And it is condemned by other religions, especially Judaism.

All extremely valid points! It's like you've studied mormonism!

Bringing your overwrought conclusions to a group of exmormon... How is that helping? We're not Jewish!

You were better off, and so were we, when you were suggesting a class action lawsuit by people who had been dead dunked or were apprehensive it would be done to them.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All extremely valid points! It's like you've
> studied mormonism!
>
> Bringing your overwrought conclusions to a group
> of exmormon... How is that helping? We're not
> Jewish!

My conclusions are not overwrought. You are stalking me again Old Dog. You don't know how to respect other's opinions without attacking them.

>
> You were better off, and so were we, when you were
> suggesting a class action lawsuit by people who
> had been dead dunked or were apprehensive it would
> be done to them.

No. That isn't true. I'm entitled to be offended by posthumous baptisms. This is an ex-Mormon site for Recovery from Mormonism last time I checked.

You again are stalking my posts, like you have done in the past. Because it doesn't matter to you, an Atheist, and your cronies who think like yourself, doesn't mean it doesn't affect many countless others who do find it egregious.

You are not the only other person here or a few who don't find it egregious. There are plenty of others who do.

You don't seem to be doing all that well in recovering from Mormonism. Perhaps you're not doing it right?

As exmormons, we all tend to agree that dead dunking is (fill in the negative value of your choice),

But you have taken the position that it's an outrage to civilized people everywhere! Harumph!!

Harumphity rumph rumph!

I'm simply calling you on it and suggesting that it's out of place here. I speak for myself, just as you speak for yourself. Reasonable minds will differ.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You don't seem to be doing all that well in
> recovering from Mormonism. Perhaps you're not
> doing it right?

Actually, I'm just fine. I don't want to recover according to your standards. I'm in recovery according to mine. I'm entitled to be offended to baptising for dead people. Just because you aren't and don't get it isn't my problem. That's your problem.

>
> As exmormons, we all tend to agree that dead
> dunking is (fill in the negative value of your
> choice),
>
> But you have taken the position that it's an
> outrage to civilized people everywhere! Harumph!!
>

No, you don't have to agree with me. I'm completely good with that. Just quit stalking me and harassing my posts. You find anything to disagree on. It doesn't matter what it is. Your posting history with my posts prove it.

>
> Harumphity rumph rumph!
>
> I'm simply calling you on it and suggesting that
> it's out of place here. I speak for myself, just
> as you speak for yourself. Reasonable minds will
> differ.

It isn't unreasonable for a reasonable person to be highly offended by posthumous baptisms for dead people. It's macabre, it desecrates the memory of loved ones deceased, and it's sacrilegious of the beliefs of those who've passed on, and the living.

That's a pretty simple closed argument.

Simple? Yes.

Simple, reasonable, and logical.

It isn't only "fanatical" Mormons who "do that" in Mormonism. It is every single Mormon with a temple recommend who enters the temple who "does that," fanatical or not.

That is what being a Mormon means.

And for children as young as 11 or 12 on without a temple recommend go in to do the dirty work of being dunked under the water for the souls of dead people.

It really is a very sick ritual.

Very degrading and macabre practice for both the living and the dead.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2019 05:42AM by Amyjo.

>>She is going to posthumously baptize them as Mormons regardless of their beliefs and wishes, period.

One of our board members has an all-purpose response to outrageous statements such as that woman made -- "See? That's why people don't like Mormons." It wouldn't stop the TBM from dead-dunking deceased family members and friends, but it would cut her down a notch.

I think that baptisms for the dead is a part of the general Mormon practice of disregarding boundaries. They do it to each other and they do it to outsiders as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2019 06:12AM by summer.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I think that baptisms for the dead is a part of
> the general Mormon practice of disregarding
> boundaries. They do it to each other and they do
> it to outsiders as well.

Me thinks you nailed it right there, Summer!

Besides, mining anyone's personal information against their wishes, dead or alive ought to be illegal.

It is to use someone's Social Security number for nefarious reasons after someone is deceased, or for any other reason nefarious or not.

When Mormons cross the line by trolling and mining, then harvesting the private data and vital statistics of the deceased, including theloved ones of the deceased to be used at a later date for when they too have passed away to be necrodunked then ...

that is an outrage. To a never Mo, or ex-Mo who desires no further contact with TSCC in this life or the world to come, it comes as little comfort to know this is not the case. It is the ultimate disrespect there is to deny others their right to be left alone and practice as they believe without that infliction of Mormonism thrust upon them after death.

If it doesn't offend the sensibility of sensible people, I don't know what does.

Genealogy is to preserve family history for historical value. Not to distort into something it was never meant to be.

That is another aspect where Mormonism screwed up big time.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2019 09:29AM by Amyjo.

My father, a devout Catholic, had died a couple years before I met my wife. She's only known him through the stories told my me, my siblings, and my mom. He was a genuinely good man.

Soon after we were married, and after a gathering when my family was sharing stories about my dad, my wife told me that she now understood why God led her to me, a non-Mormon...it was so she could do a baptism for the dead for my father.

I understood and appreciated the sentiment she was trying to convey, but I had to tell her, in no uncertain times, that she was to NEVER repeat that to the rest of my family. I also told her that, for all the warmth and kindness conveyed through our stories of my dad, he was not shy about proclaiming something stupid or foolish. If she ever had the chance to voice her intent to my dad, he would have researched the church as I have and would have set her straight in much harsher terms than I ever would.

"You never, ever, want to go there with anybody who knew and loved my dad."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2019 09:28AM by GregS.

Your dad sounds like someone after my own heart.

And a mensch!

:)

My mother stopped believing in the Mormon church and did not attend for the last 10 years of her life. Still, after she was cremated, my brothers did the temple mumbo jumbo stuff for her. It ticked me off. I got into a fight with my brother because of it.

After I calmed down, I called my brother and apologized. I realized he was just doing what his church instructed him to do. It was probably comforting for him to do temple related stuff for my mom. So what.

Even if there is a way to baptize people when/if they've passed to the other side, it doesn't stick unless the dead person agrees to it, according to the Mormon church. So if the deceased do not want to be dunked, they can decline.

I've mellowed out. I don't care what my brothers/sisters-in-law do for my mom in the temple. If it comforts them, good. I know none of it is true, so who cares.

It's best for ex/nevermos to not react when TBMs threaten to perform baptisms for the dead. Let them. Just say, "if it makes you feel better, go for it." If they're purposely trying to get a rise out of you, and see that they have failed, all the better. Remember also that yours aren't the only feelings involved. Baptism for the dead might be abhorrent to ex/nevermos but a comfort to TBMs. Tread carefully.