I can name a whole long list of changes the church has made that improved the lives of their membership.

When they do these things, do you secretly get upset because it's harder to criticize the church? Or do you rejoice that they're moving towards being a better, less harmful organization line by line, bit by bit?

I think I'm happy when they do make good moves, but I can see why some would not be.

situation today, but I'm in turmoil because it missed me by a few months and 10 days.

Because of my aunt's response to the marriage by her e-mail I posted here, I had a rough time for a while. This just brings it back up again. I believe my daughter, because of the past status of the church, would have preferred to get married inside the temple and not at a stake center. But she would have been able to wear her wedding dress longer--which was beautiful, but not white.

I'm glad they changed the thing about children of gays, but the fact they ever did it was horrible. It was very difficult for me to deal with at the time.

I can't seem to get enough distance from the church to not allow them to kick me in the gut again. Time to see the therapist. Better e-mail the scheduler right now.

That's so messed up. Sorry Cl2 (((Hugs))).

"I can name a whole long list of changes the church has made that improved the lives of their membership."

OK, go!

1-
2-
3-
4-

Dang, you put me on the spot. Ok, a few off the top of my head:

1. This new one on temple marriages
2. The LGBT policy change
3. Changes to the interview process
4. Changes to the temple (no more throat slitting and such, women no longer have to hearken to their husbands, etc.)
5. Reduced the block
6. All the changes to LDS scripture to make them less overtly racist

But generally, you can't deny LDS Inc. has been steadily making changes over its history to be more palatable to the mainstream. It's still not an organization I want to be a part of, but I'd much rather be in today's church than the church of Bruce R. McKonkie, or Brigham Young, etc.

Sorry, I give them zero credit for any of this. As someone here said about the LGBT policy reversal: you don’t get credit for putting out a fire that you started. They’ve made some things that were bad a little less bad, and some horrible things slightly more palatable, but it’s all an effort to reduce their losses.

I don’t see any altruistic changes.

Except I never said "altruistic", right?

I said changes that improved the lives of their membership.

True, you never said “altruistic,” but that’s the point I’m trying to make about recent changes. The changes probably have slightly improved some members experiences, but I seriously doubt that members’ feelings are the motivation. The FKA Mormon church isn’t growing much (if at all) anymore, and they’ve had a lot of bad publicity in recent years. They used to relish the idea of being unique, now they want to fit in.

Sucking less is an improvement, but nothing like the vast improvement they would see by leaving TSCC.

I totally agree. I will offer another metaphor. If I punch you in the face, what can I possibly do that will improve your life??? That's messed up.
Now I can see, if I merely spit in your cheerios or something, big deal.

But I dunno about ya'all but the mormon church has done immeasurable harm in a psychopathic kind of way. There is no justification for what the mormon leaders have been doing to people since day 1. JFHC.
And besides what do these "changes" do for me?? I've been so harmed directly by a sick cult and they even took my money!!!!!. There is nothing those ddudes can do to improve my life except for stay out of mine and stop raping my family. Just stop.


CrispingPin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry, I give them zero credit for any of this. As

>> 1. This new one on temple marriages

They shouldn't have had the policy in the first place, and they still require 2 ceremonies, one of which only worthy mormons can attend.

>> 2. The LGBT policy change

They shouldn't have had the policy in the first place, and they still don't accept LGBT people.

3. Changes to the interview process

They shouldn't have had the policy in the first place, and they still interview kids about "worthiness" which sets them up for false failure.

4. Changes to the temple (no more throat slitting and such, women no longer have to hearken to their husbands, etc.)

They shouldn't have had the policy in the first place, and they still require tithes to attend the temple.

5. Reduced the block

They shouldn't have had the policy in the first place, and they still require attendance and follow up to see if your staying in line.

6. All the changes to LDS scripture to make them less overtly racist

They shouldn't have had the policy in the first place, and they are still racist to a large extent.

Saying these things are improvements to the members lives is like the crazy dictator saying that the prisoners now getting 10 lashes a day instead of 15 and an extra crust of bread once a week is an improvement to theirs.

Are you saying that given the choice between 10 lashes and 15 that you'd choose 15?

Of course you wouldn't. 10 lashes is empirically better than 15.

Your point that those policies shouldn't have existed in the first place is a red herring.

I like hitting my head against the wall because it feels so good when I stop.

I am for any change in policy that makes things kinder, more inclusive, more loving, more charitable, and more family-friendly. There are plenty of other areas that the Mormon church can address. But the change in policy regarding temple sealings is a good thing.

If a thief robs you and then uses some of the fenced loot money to buy you a large TV, have you still been robbed ?

Yes, you were still robbed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2019 08:33PM by kathleen.

No. A religion is supposed to do good things. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Anything they don't screw up for the rest of us I consider a win.

as noted on another thread, watch for temple marriages to fade out and only go to the temple to be sealed. Get your actual marriage done by a civilian. that way the LBGT crowd can be kept out of the temple since they are no longer being deprived of marriage, and LDS can keep their non-profit status because they are no longer discriminating in their marriage shenanigans. follow the money. if it was really about being family friendly, they missed the but long ago. revelation/inspiration anyone?

change but to boat unless it works okay for you that way.

I knew the answer before I asked her. She would have still wanted to be married inside the temple and I knew it. oddly enough, I feel good about things now. We haven't discussed this at all since she got married and now I feel good. She has the right to do it her own way, just like I did. Whether she is mormon or not, she is one of the greatest lights of my life.

I'm happy whenever any organization makes changes that improve the lives of its members.

That said, it's too late for the church. They jettisoned their doctrines long ago, and that was their legitimacy. Now they are just relaxing control in some areas, which is far short of giving up control they wielded without right. I'm glad families will be treated better. But this won't be enough to stem the bleeding.

Nothing secret about it. The harm the temple marriage caused to my wife's family cannot be undone. Those most deeply hurt passed away years ago. No apology, no change now can undo what happened. Fuck the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Fuck Nelson and fuck his plural wife Wendy. Fuck Oaks, fuck all in the top leadership. As for ward members, I'm glad that bullshit that happened to me won't be put on them. I care about many people who happen to be Mormons, but the leadership at the top can go fuck themselves.

Here is my message to the so-called prophet Nelson, his counselors and to the quorum of the twelve:

https://media.giphy.com/media/bARGkH8go4Zhe/giphy.mp4

Wow. Alrighty then...

I'm happy to see any positive change but it's also interesting to consider the Corp's motivation for the change.
Is it about:
1) Money?
2) Loss of members?
3) Public Relations?

Certainly never about revelation.

I could care less. I don't pay attention to church news unless it gets reported here...and I actually read it.

It doesn't upset me, but everything they do is too little too late. They still have nothing really good to offer.

Not at all because I know there is an ulterior motive in all things Mormon hierarchy. It may seem good on the surface, but underneath is a demonic dark slithering mass of bovine excrement.

Hitler painted some nice paintings. I'm still upset about the rest though. And always will be.

Mormons and a lot of other religions have just gone too far. They caved on a few things as a precaution against law suits and bad press which really amounts to pouring sugar on a rotten corpse. There is a point of no return.

The Mormons get no brownie points from me. And never will. They will always be the people who put up the phony front and pretend to comfort you while they twist the knife in your back.

Yeah, but isn’t it better to be pissed on than crapped on?

What a question! Isn't it sad that those are the only two choices? What the hell is wrong with a world that is thrilled because now they are only getting pissed on instead of crapped on?

Mormonism. The abuse is all relative? Yay! We've made some progress. They took one of my ankle chains off!

What mikemitchell said including the Jack Nickelson finger.

I was surprised at my response to this news. Very much like mikemitchel's reaction. I was so angry. My mother sat outside while I got married. No one in my family could see me get married. I wanted a civil marriage first, but got a lot of push back from leadership and my now ex husbands family. Many in my family are now dead and the rest have not forgiven. I felt betrayed and alone today. Leadership presented getting married in the temple at the sacrifice of your family as doctrine. I was told if I did not get married in temple first and one of us dies without being sealed it would be my fault. And now this. Yes it is a good thing moving forward, but all those changes are things many of us were told were unchangeable. Part of me is angry at myself for swallowing all of this hook line and sinker. Even though I realize I have a much better life being out, this really through me into an emotional place I did not want to visit again.

allegro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wanted a civil marriage first, but got a lot of push back
> from leadership and my now ex husbands family.

I can relate to this. I listened to the church leaders and heavily excluded parts of my own family as well as the entire side of my wife's family. Having a mormon wedding reception really didn't do much to make amends and I still feel coldness from certain family members from the choice of a temple exclusive marriage.

I spoke with different leaders (bishop and stake president) about doing a civil ceremony then waiting the one year "punishment" to be sealed in the temple. While the bishop understood me not wanting to exclude family members, the stake president made it clear that he vehemently opposed it.

"Messy, while the church policy says marriages that are performed outside of the temple must wait a minimum of one year, always remember that I will be the ultimate judge of your worthiness. I may find it fitting for you to wait a longer period of time if I find you unfit to go to the house of the lord."

In fact, there was one young couple (a RM and his member wife) that went the civil marriage route against the advice of the stake president. Not only did they wait out the year to go to the temple, but the SP kept them waiting another year to "prepare themselves". Just like a true to life Mormon BYU melodrama film, tragedy came to that family. The husband crashed his ATV into a tree and became paralyzed. He was in and out of consciousness; surviving on life support. He required round the clock care. The young wife became inconsolable and lost her mind. She ultimately divorced him during his time of need. Many members of the high council flaunted this story to scare youth into seeking a temple marriage.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2019 10:54AM by messygoop.

Allegro,

I am so sorry that happened to you. :(

Hugs :) :) :)

ChurchCo has set itself up as the only - final arbiter of Right/Wrong, which more often than not includes numerous exceptions & somewhat complex justifications for those exceptions.


In effect, the deny at least minimize any personal sense of responsibility in members everyday lives.


ChurchCo, to my POV, hasn't done anything laudable, the 'good things' (what little charity, etc) is 99% done by the members for other members; NOT TRUE altruistic charity, NOT AT ALL.

I don't see the leaders sacrificing ANYTHING, Nothing At All with the possible exception of the travel time away from their families/friends for meetings away from SL.

My sympathy for members has its limits.

Everyone blames the leaders, but members generally want what they're getting, if nothing else, to have a cult to cling to.

Human nature.

Somehow we were able to see the BS and walk away, and most of the others could also, if they wanted to.

Sure they might endure some abuse or bad experiences, but they'll tolerate that to fit in with the crowd. And somehow the rotten experience binds them tighter.

Most members think they need the group to survive. They are born to be cult members.

I wasn't. I never have been overly social, e.g., I ended the traditional hazing in our high school locker room that had been going on for years - more cult mentality. Somehow guys thought it was good fun to inflict severe pain on other boys, but I didn't see the humor and sent a few guys flying.

Didn't realize until many years later that I was abnormal, and you're supposed to just go along.

Yes. Yes. Yes. I'll see your abnormal and raise you one.

The members are part of it. Takes two to tango and the "Men in the Red Velvet Chairs" are twirling, dipping, and leading the members backwards. And the members are so happy to do it!

Cult co-dependency.

Like babyloncansuckit said above, with each tidbit thrown to them, the members are marveling that now they are only being pissed on instead of crapped on: "Isn't it wonderful to have a prophet who speaks for Heavenly Father?"

I don't see putting a bandaid on a corpse as a wonderful thing. It is just another deceit.

Examples of Mormon mindfucking with children.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJNN8RuOJyw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD7BhTV46cs

The psychology goes way beyond normal human freedom issues. While it’s true that the average human really doesn’t want freedom because of the responsibility that goes along with it, all bets are off once TSCC gets their hooks into you. People who think they are being responsible turn over their decision making to a cabal of liars and thieves.

is a good thing.

Some of the recent changes are indeed things that critics of the church have been suggesting for years. So I have nothing to complain about when the leaders of the gullibility mining business known as the LDS Church implement some of those suggestions.

They're still exploiting the gullibility of the members, but showing an inclination to ease up in some areas.

In the "It takes two to tango" department, I always reserve a share of the blame for the gullible adult members of the Church who have let the obviously uninspired leaders of the Church boss them around in petty detail generation after generation. To the extent that they are not literally mentally retarded, the adults have a responsibility to use their brains and question why they should obey dictates coming from a bunch of guys whose pretentious claims of "authority" can often be traced back to callings and ordinations done by a "prophet" who literally did not know god from Adam. It's a matter of record.

But as long as there is a sizable group of adults who for psychological or social reasons are so gullible that they CAN be bossed around in every petty detail of their lives by the "General Authorities", I also think that the "General Authorities" should at a bare minimum make an effort to be kind to the sheep in the fleecing process--just as I would expect a sheep rancher to take good care not to inflict pain and suffering on their sheep when they're harvesting wool.

Wally Prince Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> In the "It takes two to tango" department, I
> always reserve a share of the blame for the
> gullible adult members of the Church who have let
> the obviously uninspired leaders of the Church
> boss them around in petty detail generation after
> generation.

there's a certain type of person who can't, or doesn't want to, make decisions for themselves. in psychology it's called "an external locus of control". religious people tend to lean towards an external rather than internal locus.

when the GAs announced a change to the 2-hr meetings and more home-based worship, there was a statement to local leaders. paraphrasing, the Brethren said "Don't get stuck on the logistics." point being that lots of local leaders are so externally focused they expect a detailed checklist to follow, rather than using their own minds. it must be tedious for GAs to get questions on the tiniest details from local leaders who are unable, or unwilling, to make the any decisions without clear and explicit instructions.

Do you secretly get upset when LDS Inc. does something good?

No.

They doing the ultimate good would be disappearing or fading into the background of my family's life more.

Not really. I've been around the block long enough to know all church's are corrupt and as bad as LDS Inc. is there are worse organizations out there who do some good with some of their assets.

The reality is if you look how much the LDS Inc is worth and what they bring in a year, what they donate to charity is a very small amount.

Also even if the church is a fraud there are good people in it that do good things. The church is a mixed bag and there are all sorts of psychological reasons people in it act the way they do.

I've moved on beyond caring what the church does. I got out. If other people want to leave they have to do it themselves. I have no control over what the church does. If anything watching the church try to stay relevant in this quickly changing world is entertaining.

The church for me is like watching the crazy bag lady talk to herself. Sad but entertaining.

Yes, I get really mad because I want mormonism to remain as weird and laughable as possible.

I used to want that. Now I'm resigned to hopefully its sinking into irrelevance.

+1! As they water it down they begin to erase our past and make our outrage at what they have done seem for naught. Beyond that---their newest victims should be able to see the teeth behind the smile.

I'm not really proud to admit that I want them to declare a 25% tithe, a 5 hour meeting block and a return of mandatory polygamy.

Whenever they make Mormonism more palatable it just keeps that many more people comfy and Mormon.

No, Hitl*r drew some really nice paintings, but the rest was really bad.

No, because the more benign it becomes the easier it is to leave.

“Drop by on Sunday and we’ll kick around some ideas” isn’t the glue that holds a dues paying cult together.

honklermaga Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> When they do these things, do you secretly get
> upset because it's harder to criticize the church?

Many ex-mos (and I mean A LOT, maybe MOST ex-mos) are stuck in anger towards the church. Similar to the type of people who are divorced for 20 years but still complain about how their ex-spouse done them wrong.

These people have defined themselves as victims. The church is the evil oppressor, and fighting the evil oppressor gives meaning to their lives. If LDSinc changes for the better, it takes the wind out of the critics' sails ... and takes some meaning away from their lives.

A dose of anger is appropriate in many contexts. But being perpetually angry is toxic. It'll keep you stuck and resentful and pointing your finger at others, rather than working towards other goals or accomplishments in life.

How do you know there are A LOT, MOST exmo's "stuck" in anger?

I don't know, but my "guess" is that many like to come to RFM and discuss because Mormonism was huge in our lives. It still fascinates even as it no longer wounds. And, I would suspect many are like me---don't even think about it during my normal day at work and play and it does not effect my life.

However, I like to attempt to help someone with a few words if I can, and I love the humor here, and I love so see so many points of view, and yes, I love to give my strong opinions sometimes. And then forget them because for the most part they have no day to day application.

On the other hand, for the few that are experiencing anger--especially those who just found the fraud,---this is wonderful place to make sure you don't get "stuck."

Anything "good" that they do is always reactionary, and always too little too late.

bottom line: No change in policy or practice makes it true.

I don't celebrate a stopped clock twice a day.

Ka-CHING!