I have a bad feeling that this will not have a good outcome.
==============================================================



"Let’s start with the good. 29% of respondents said that Arabic numerals should be taught in schools. That’s great, because they already are!

16% had no opinion on the subject.

An astounding 56% of Americans said Arabic numerals should not be taught in American schools."



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6TskeIXoAAnZHL.png



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2019 12:54AM by Dave the Atheist.

It's not a good reflection on schools in general that you can do a poll (assuming it was legitimately structured) that can get a result where 56% of the respondents have no idea what "Arabic numerals" are, but feel like they have to have an opinion on it anyway. Worse of the 44% who were okay with Arabic numerals being taught in school, you just know that some percentage of them answered that way because they wanted to be nice and inclusive--not because they actually had any understanding of what they were really being asked about.

Of course legitimate arguments can be made about whether "Arabic numerals" is an accurate term for referring to the symbols currently used for numbers throughout most of the world, since they are actually traced back to origins in India.

https://www.quora.com/Do-Arabic-numerals-actually-have-an-Arabic-origin

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hindu-Arabic-numerals

If some of the respondents thought the question was referring to Eastern Arabic, Perso-Arabic or Urdu numerals, rather than "Western Arabic" numerals, their response actually would not be particularly dumb (if the poll question was worded in a way that made it sound like the "Arabic numerals" would be taught instead of the current system).

Assuming this is a legitimate poll, it is a sad commentary on the current state of education in this country.

Just like dihydrogen oxide should be outlawed because it rots and corrode everything.

I literally couldn't breathe while I was in it.

And what about all those people who die in it every year?

That stuff will kill you if you drink too much.

Trump has ordered Delta force to hunt down those evil Al Gebra terrorists. It's just what I heard.

the Al Gebra faction to prevent them from entering into an alliance with the Paj Ama group in India and the El Camino gang in Central America?

What's with this Algebra stuff anyway? It's just another name derived from... Arabic (gasp)!

From Wikipedia: "al-jabr", literally meaning "reunion of broken parts"

Soft Machine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What's with this Algebra stuff anyway? It's just
> another name derived from... Arabic (gasp)!
>
> From Wikipedia: "al-jabr", literally meaning
> "reunion of broken parts"

It may be derived from the Arabic language, but the Arabs took the concept from the Greeks, much like they took the numerals from the Indians.

There was a hilarious exhibition at my local mosque along the lines of "we invented everything". Now Arabic scientists did make great advances (especially in astronomy), but some of the claims in there were ridiculous e.g. Muslims had invented the postal service. I had to point out to them that the Romans and Chinese had a postal service hundreds of years before Mohammed was born. The mosque guides looked at me blankly as if to say "but we invented it." The Incas also invented mail services independently without Muslim influence...

They made similar bogus claims about universities, hospitals etc. Again I had to point out to them that these existed long before the Koran. Or before the Koran was transcribed (they believe it existed in eternity).

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Trump has ordered Delta force to hunt down those
> evil Al Gebra terrorists. It's just what I heard.

The Epsilon-Delta force will take the Al Gebra terrorists to the limit.

And what about women's suffrage ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQJQ--T4U0c



"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Sir Winston Churchill

toward achieving whirled peas.

I especially oppose suffrage being inflicted upon thespians who masticate. That said, I don't think they should be allowed to masticate in public.

Plenty of videos out there where people can't answer basic questions about American history, proper grammar, current events, science, and so on. One prominent young lady recently discussed "the three chambers of government--the House, the Senate, and the President." (She works in one of them!)

I wonder what Congresspersonman John Roberts has to say about this!

to lower the voting age to 16?

What could possibly go wrong?

And what could possibly go wrong?

I'm old enough (by cracky!) to remember when they started to legalize marijuana. What could possibly go wrong?

older folks to exercise their vote intelligently.

On average, though, most 16-year olds I've ever encountered have such a limited perspective, experience base and knowledge base with regard to just about everything that it doesn't seem like a good idea to be using their votes to cancel out the votes of older people who actually have lived long enough to have some knowledge of history and historical events, and some understanding of the major competing political philosophies that animate and underly the political issues of the day.

There is no "fairness" issue at stake, since most 16-year olds will get the right to vote soon enough. It's just a line-drawing exercise. If 16 is fine, why not 14? If 14 is okay, why not 8? Why not 5 and an adult standing behind prompting the kid. "I know the chuch is twoo and I know that Mitt Womney is the best person to be pwesident..."

I agree that it would be difficult for 16 year olds to do much worse than those who have run the country for the last several decades.

The other issue, a more serious one, is that the disenfranchisement of children (and the unborn) severely skews the electoral system. Over the last 50 or so years, voters have uniformly opted for representatives that will cut taxes and/or increase spending indefinitely. The national debt and entitlements have exploded.

That matters because the debts will be paid by our children and grandchildren. In an ideal world, those future taxpayers and inflation-sufferers would have had representation in American politics; they would have been able to vote against the massive transfer of wealth from them to the Greatest Generation and the Baby Boom Generation. That would have been equitable.

Obviously babies are not able to vote. It might be possible, again in an ideal world, to have administrators who voted for the children in order to prevent such massive robbery but obviously there is no way to make that happen. The other option is for the enfranchised, the older voters, to consider the needs of future generations when going to the polls. We can see, however, that that is too optimistic.

When people have an incentive to cheat others, even their own children, they will do so. They will take up ideological flags like supply-side economics, the Laffer Curve, or something else in order to give themselves a rationale for why it is okay to spend their kids' inheritance. And that is where it ends. . . until the bills come due.

Unfortunately, to the extent that adolescents (and younger) have a clear understanding of intergenerational economics at all (let alone basic economic principles in general), they would probably be just as likely (if not more so) to kick the can of reckoning down the road to the generations that come after them to the full extent possible and grab as much as they can get in the here and now. I doubt any considerable number of them who get any jobs paying a living wage will want to increase income taxes and very few of them will likely want to decrease government spending.

Their attitude will likely be along the lines of: "Hey the boomers screwed us over and squandered the accumulated capital of several generations on a party for themselves. Why shouldn't we do the same?"

Sadly reasonable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2019 04:34AM by Lot's Wife.

That’s why socialism is making a comeback. Capitalism is a race to the bottom. The government is there to not let it win. The realization is slowly sinking in that government isn’t some useless bureaucracy. The rats desperately want to win the rat race. But if they win, they lose. Who will have money to buy their products?

Politics is a secular religion built on mythology. That’s why it’s so inflammatory. Busting the myth feels like a personal attack, just as with Mormonism. There’s no rational thinking, which is a page taken straight out of TSCC’s playbook. Look at the Green New Deal. Even the proposal of saving the future of humanity from an existential threat elicits buffoonish attacks. It’s like Mormons defending the idea of Jaredite barges.

We are certainly in uncharted territory. Today’s youth are connected via social media and the Internet. The current mythology can’t be sustained. Other forces, like the psychedelic underground, are wrecking mythologies that took the establishment centuries to build up. I think we will pull a rabbit out of a hat, like we always seem to do. Except for the coastal cities being flooded, but some things can’t be helped.

A couple of points.

None of the people talking about socialism today have much sense of what the word actually means. What a Sanders or a AOC trumpet would be considered left-of-center in Europe and not really socialism, which means "state ownership of the means of production." No one is advocating anything near that.

Additionally, it would be unfortunate if the US abandoned capitalism. The other systems are much less productive. The key is in establishing the rules in which capitalism is allowed to function. The one thing Marx got right is that without a socially-defined and enforced framework, capitalism tends towards the concentration of wealth and political power in the hands of the few.

The solution to that is to fix the framework, not to through out the Vermeer in the middle.

There lies the problem in making politics a secular religion and pandering contest. The social structures that would have prevented real wages from remaining flat for 40 years were deconstructed because the political shell game made it possible. It was just another flavor of religion and another example of what religious thinking opens you up to.

I’m picturing the number “7” with a turban and a beard.

and 15% responded with "no opinion".

That probably means that the percentage of respondents who actually did not know what was meant by the term "Arabic numerals" was much higher than 56%.

Wally Prince Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> and 15% responded with "no opinion".
>
> That probably means that the percentage of
> respondents who actually did not know what was
> meant by the term "Arabic numerals" was much
> higher than 56%.

Or more likely they'd say anything to get rid of the annoying person with the clipboard. Most people swerve around them when they see them on the street or put down the phone.

It's odd isn't it, how many political polls there are, but how few people ever say that they were one of those quizzed? I've never met anyone who's told me that it's happened to them.

If any of the 56% are reading this forum, divide MDCCCL by XXXV using ONLY a pencil, paper, and Roman numerals. Then we'll listen to your suggestion of not teaching Arabic numerals.

ookami Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If any of the 56% are reading this forum, divide
> MDCCCL by XXXV using ONLY a pencil, paper, and
> Roman numerals. Then we'll listen to your
> suggestion of not teaching Arabic numerals.

Believe it or not, there are one or two people out there who do this kind of thing as a hobby! They tend to be socially challenged.

The Romans themselves must have done this kind of thing all the time. How do you think they built megastructures like aqueducts, bridges, domes etc?

The Romans did it by using devices like an abacus or look-up tables with pre-calculated answers. Addition and subtraction are difficult with Roman numerals. Long division, challenging to many people even with Arabic numerals, was essentially impossible for most people in Roman numerals, even back in the day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2019 09:42AM by Brother Of Jerry.

That's the fault of an educational system which spends more time indoctrinating children than teaching them history or geography. There are actually TWO types of Arabic numerals out there - the ones we use (along with most of the world and North Africa), and the ones most Arabic speaking countries use which are slightly different e.g. 2 & 3 are up on stems.

Both of these originate from *India*. Arab civilzation was a great conduit for others' ideas. Indians. Greeks. Chinese. Persians. Romans. Algebra may have an Arabic name, but it came from Greece, and India before that.

So much for the weapons of math instruction.

100% of my neighbors can't seem to figure out how to throw their garbage bags to the back of the trash bin, so that there's room for everyone's trash. The result is that the bags pile up in one spot and often overflow the bin.

I lived in a place that had the exact same problem. It was university new faculty housing.

My neighbors also can't seem to figure out what can or can't be recycled, even though it's clearly posted. They try to recycle food, rubber, twigs, even animal scat. Reading comprehension, people!

This poll is faulty. It's a trick question.

I don't blame schools for this. I blame the pollsters.

The public gets the schools it deserves. If they want better schools, they need to be more involved as parents and school supporters. Mindless carping doesn't help.

It's humorous to think of schools expecting kids to use only Roman numerals for adding and subtracting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2019 07:07AM by Cheryl.

56% of those.polled are.ignorant and prejudiced against Muslims. Maybe we should use Roman numerals.instead.

and 44% don't care about homosexuals . . .

what percentage here don't realize they're the idiot sometimes? the pontificators ------?

I am an idiot on something hings but I do know we use Arabic numbers, that homo sapien doesn't equate with homosexual and I see no reason to bomb the made up kingdom in the movie Aladdin. Apparently a number of Americans don't know then first two and want to bomb the third. That is both sad and funny to me.

These "gotcha" type questionnaires are always hilarious but inherently dishonest.

In reality, 56% of of Americans probably don't see the point in having "different" numerals taught in schools. The fact that they're Arabic means nothing.

The question could have been "Chinese" numerals and the output would be the same.

Most wouldn't know that we use Arabic numerals because it isn't relevant to math operations.

Does anyone know if the words "Arabic numerals" is part of any public school required curriculum? Perhaps in advanced math or college classes?

honklermaga Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> These "gotcha" type questionnaires are always
> hilarious but inherently dishonest.

Dishonest?


------------
> The question could have been "Chinese" numerals
> and the output would be the same.

Except the Western world doesn't use Chinese numerals. So there's that.

Cheryl understood my point, but I'm not sure you did.

They were.called Arabic numbers when I was in school and we also learned that homo sapiens and home sexual are not the same. I do agree that some people don't know these things and that a person who is not listening carefully may assume you meant something other than what you said even if they know the difference..

Oh, I understood your point. I just thought I'd point out that it was inane.

Basic cultural literacy is important. When a combination of ignorance and prejudice precludes such literacy, society is in trouble. It's sort of like when people don't understand the separation of powers, which "isn't relevant" to daily life and yet is essential to the preservation of individual liberty.

Ok, wow. I didn't think my point was "silly, stupid" which is how inane is defined in the dictionary.

Speaking of cultural literacy, you may be interested to know our numerals actually originated in India in the 6th or 7th century.

So they're not arabic, they're Hindu.

Since they are called Arabic numbers, that is kind of beside the point.

Brilliant, albeit irrelevant.

You may want to crack open that dictionary again and look up "Arabic numerals" and "Indian numerals." What you will discover is that the system used in Western countries is known as "Arabic numerals," so that is the term that one would expect culturally literate Americans to know.

It's not culturally literate to call them arabic numerals any more than it's culturally literate to call native Americans "Indians."

Our numerals come from India; our indigenous population does not.

I guess I'm not surprised you're acting so salty. Username checks out.

Yes, it is culturally literate to call them Arabic numerals because that is what they are known as. It’s like pasta. Is someone illiterate who calls pasta “Italian food” when in reality it originated in China? Of course not. S/he is speaking in accordance with established norms and textbook definitions.

The reason I am “salty” on this topic is the undercurrent of racism. We all know that the question elicited replies that were influenced in part by that—the combination of anti-Muslim prejudice and linguistic ignorance—and that some of the defenders of the ignorance are evincing a subtle approval of, or desire to excuse, the racist presumptions.

Few are oblivious to the subtext.

You choose to see racism there, that's on you. You're no more a mind-reader than any mormon priesthood holder claiming special powers of discernment.

Everything these days is racist, sexist, bigoted, homophobic, transphobic, etc.

It could just be that 56% of respondents didn't realize our numerals originated in India and didn't see the point in having different numerals taught in school. What use would new numerals be?

This was clearly a gotcha questionnaire. I don't see any reason to attribute any of the responses to racism.

Probably the same people who dont think Homo Sapiens should have equal rights.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2019 03:14PM by bona dea.

This is the kind of "man on the street" questions that The Tonight Show to ask random people, on streets of LA. Funny stuff.

interviews...combined with a bit of a depressing feeling afterwards as I contemplate the implications for society if there are as many pathologically ignorant people as those episodes seem to indicate.

Then I have to remind myself of a number of possible counterpoints to what is being depicted for entertainment purposes on such shows.

(1) There's always a possibility that some of the interviews are staged with actors posing as random street interviewees who will make hilariously stupid comments. It's entertainment. They have no legal obligation to disclose whether it's all staged and phony or whether it's really just random people being interviewed.

(2) Selective editing. The chances are that if they indeed do random interviews of dozens of people, they probably get many more intelligent responses than are indicated. They simply discard all of the footage of the intelligent, well-informed responses that they get because they're not funny or entertaining. So in the end, the stupid responses may actually reflect a small percentage of the responses that they actually got.