Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
I have a friend who has a Jewish line and got in trouble for entering and working some Jewish Shoah ancestory names and she got her account locked. She has been trying to reach out to the Holocaust team for nearly 3 years. No one wants to talk to her and address exactly what her infraction is. She is so frustrated that she thinks the church is spying on her computer. Has anyone ever ran across a situation like this?
Maybe since those names have been banned from use since 1995?
I presume she is either of recent Ashkenazi heritage, since the holocaust occurred only three or four generations ago... Or that these relatives are distant cousins with some common ancestor back in the 19th century or earlier. If the latter then they are justified in locking it.
That sounds right to me. Aren't lds members supposed to only submit names of their own direct ancestors for baptism? Grandparents, great grandparents etc? Peripheral distant cousins are supposed to be left for their own direct descendants.
What they're supposed to do, vs what they do are two totally different and foreign concepts to temple workers ... working on the sly.
That's just what they do. It's busy work. But to them it's of paramount importance as in "do or die trying."
That's just what they do. It's busy work. But to them it's of paramount importance as in "do or die trying."
All those names have been removed at the request of Israeli officials with an agreement with LDS officials they were not going to continue baptizing Holocaust victims. I believe they were supposed to have expunged the records of previously baptized Holocaust victims, but knowing how fingers get crossed behind backs in closed door sessions of truce meetings, I could be wrong about that.
Anne Frank has been re-baptized at least 15 times since the Holocaust, and a few of those have been since 1995. LDS states it wasn't aware those more recent baptisms were taking place - the most recent supposedly done in Jamaica or some other offshore island where the temple workers were "in the dark." I call major BS on that.
They have to know the difference between Anne Frank and other names of those they're baptizing posthumously. So that doesn't wash.
But the reasoning your friend is barred if she is trying to defy the bans in place is because they are there for a reason that has been established policy since 1995. She can either follow the policy/mandates of the terms of policy in use by the FamilySearch dot org, or she is in violation of them.
She needs to get up to speed with the terms of use so she can get back to using the service for other family related searches.
If it's Shoah names she wants to search for, suggest she try utilizing other services such as MyHeritage which started in Israel. It's a fee paid membership, but she may find what she's looking for there by hooking up with other members sites who have extensive data that they've already found on their Jewish ancestry. Or, she could try researching the names from the Yad Vashem Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem. Another place she might send out a feeler is the Diaspora Museum in Tel Aviv, it is the Genealogy Museum for Israel.
Anne Frank has been re-baptized at least 15 times since the Holocaust, and a few of those have been since 1995. LDS states it wasn't aware those more recent baptisms were taking place - the most recent supposedly done in Jamaica or some other offshore island where the temple workers were "in the dark." I call major BS on that.
They have to know the difference between Anne Frank and other names of those they're baptizing posthumously. So that doesn't wash.
But the reasoning your friend is barred if she is trying to defy the bans in place is because they are there for a reason that has been established policy since 1995. She can either follow the policy/mandates of the terms of policy in use by the FamilySearch dot org, or she is in violation of them.
She needs to get up to speed with the terms of use so she can get back to using the service for other family related searches.
If it's Shoah names she wants to search for, suggest she try utilizing other services such as MyHeritage which started in Israel. It's a fee paid membership, but she may find what she's looking for there by hooking up with other members sites who have extensive data that they've already found on their Jewish ancestry. Or, she could try researching the names from the Yad Vashem Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem. Another place she might send out a feeler is the Diaspora Museum in Tel Aviv, it is the Genealogy Museum for Israel.
Is that like Spirit Prison?
There's no rehab for those lost souls, Elder Berry.
There are no "get out of jail free" cards for them.
Mwahaahaaahaaa.
There are no "get out of jail free" cards for them.
Mwahaahaaahaaa.
The names she was working are her direct ancestory
Because they're from the Holocaust is why they are banned then. She needs to familiarize herself with the rules so she can get back in the good graces of Family Search dot org.
There are names from my 'direct ancestry' that have been removed from the family tree that my mother added decades ago, long before Salt Lake City made its pact with Israel. The Holocaust names are not there. So that is what it is.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2019 11:59AM by Amyjo.
There are names from my 'direct ancestry' that have been removed from the family tree that my mother added decades ago, long before Salt Lake City made its pact with Israel. The Holocaust names are not there. So that is what it is.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2019 11:59AM by Amyjo.
At least I can say TSCC is trying to honor its agreement in part, because it is partially working.
In my experience, Jews are one of the least likely groups to go LDS (although strangely one of the most likely to go into Scientology)... I have known one or two Jewish converts but not many really. One of them was from Eastern Europe and moved here after the Iron Curtain fell. I can't help thinking many of his ancestors and close relatives must be on this list.
I don't have any Jewish ancestry (not recent anyway), but I did find one of my g x whatever aunts had married a Jew. I don't think he was observant, and was probably a convert to Christianity, but his family had come from Odessa during the 19th century. Odessa in the Ukraine was a thriving Jewish community back then, but tsarist pogroms, Communism and the Nazis changed all that. So I suppose if I traced great x whatever aunt's inlaws, then there would be some Holocaust victims in there.
I don't have any Jewish ancestry (not recent anyway), but I did find one of my g x whatever aunts had married a Jew. I don't think he was observant, and was probably a convert to Christianity, but his family had come from Odessa during the 19th century. Odessa in the Ukraine was a thriving Jewish community back then, but tsarist pogroms, Communism and the Nazis changed all that. So I suppose if I traced great x whatever aunt's inlaws, then there would be some Holocaust victims in there.
My paternal grandmother's family came from the Crimea (then part of Russia) during the time of Catherine the Great. I have formal family photographs of them, taken sometime during the 1800s, with Cyrillic writing on the paper "frames."
Before my Grandma was born in what is now South Dakota, her parents and other relatives moved from the Crimea to the USA, and they went to the Dakota Territory to live.
I am pretty sure they were Jews (which didn't do ME a bit of good, because "BEING Jewish," by descent, is passed down the maternal line only). Their family surname, my Grandma's maiden name, is clearly Hebrew (it consists of two Hebrew words stuck together).
Grandma didn't know the significance of what she was telling me: her earlier ancestors had "originally" come from what is now Germany, and they emigrated to the Crimea because of substantial inducements being granted to German [Jews] by Catherine the Great, who wanted them to colonize that part of Russia in order to modernize it, and raise its economic level.
Nevertheless, and even if it didn't "count" towards ME being a Jew, paternal descent is still, from my perspective, a neat thing--and thanks to Grandma (who didn't know what she was actually "saying" to me when she was telling me this history), I do know it is a part of my ancestry.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2019 11:52PM by Tevai.
Before my Grandma was born in what is now South Dakota, her parents and other relatives moved from the Crimea to the USA, and they went to the Dakota Territory to live.
I am pretty sure they were Jews (which didn't do ME a bit of good, because "BEING Jewish," by descent, is passed down the maternal line only). Their family surname, my Grandma's maiden name, is clearly Hebrew (it consists of two Hebrew words stuck together).
Grandma didn't know the significance of what she was telling me: her earlier ancestors had "originally" come from what is now Germany, and they emigrated to the Crimea because of substantial inducements being granted to German [Jews] by Catherine the Great, who wanted them to colonize that part of Russia in order to modernize it, and raise its economic level.
Nevertheless, and even if it didn't "count" towards ME being a Jew, paternal descent is still, from my perspective, a neat thing--and thanks to Grandma (who didn't know what she was actually "saying" to me when she was telling me this history), I do know it is a part of my ancestry.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2019 11:52PM by Tevai.
In Israel being born of a Jewish mother is recognized under Halacha Law for purpose of emigration there. But to the Orthodox Jews who rule the Knesset and government, the standard for orthodoxy is to still have a father and mother who are both observant Jewish, preferably Orthodox, which is the recognized most accepted sect in Israel.
It does allow immigrants to have a non-Jewish spouse however, for those making Aliyah if they meet the other requirements for immigration.
Those who move there under the Halacha Law of line of descent are discriminated once there, from what I've been able to glean, if they aren't Orthodox or have both parents who are Jewish. It may be subtle, but it does exist.
I also understand Reform recognizes paternal descent to establish Jewish parentage for children born to Jewish fathers.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2019 08:02AM by Amyjo.
It does allow immigrants to have a non-Jewish spouse however, for those making Aliyah if they meet the other requirements for immigration.
Those who move there under the Halacha Law of line of descent are discriminated once there, from what I've been able to glean, if they aren't Orthodox or have both parents who are Jewish. It may be subtle, but it does exist.
I also understand Reform recognizes paternal descent to establish Jewish parentage for children born to Jewish fathers.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2019 08:02AM by Amyjo.
Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In Israel being born of a Jewish mother is
> recognized under Halacha Law for purpose of
> emigration there.
Of course--but for purposes of immigration to Israel, if one of a given olim's [olim means: "immigrant"] four grandparents is/was Jewish, they are ALSO recognized, FOR PURPOSES OF IMMIGRATION [only], as a Jew. This was not so in the earliest days of Israel's statehood, but then it was pointed out that the "one of four grandparents" rule had been the Nazi criteria, and--if a person could die for being a Jew during the Holocaust because they had one Jewish grandparent--then it was totally unjust to deny that person Israeli citizenship because they did not fit the Halachic definition of Jewishness.
So you can immigrate as a Jew....but then not be recognized as Jew for purposes of civil law (which, for Jews, is run by the Chief Rabbinate; Muslims and Christians have their own "civil" religious authorities). This means: you may have to "fly to Cyprus" to get married, and your body may be restricted to a specific, designated, location within cemeteries if you are not halachically a Jew.
> But to the Orthodox Jews who rule the Knesset and government
On these kinds of issues, there is a substantial difference between "Orthodox" (which "everybody" is, by default) and ultra-Orthodox in Israel. "Orthodox" simply means the average, everyday, ordinary, Jewish Israeli citizen who may, or may not, be actually Jewishly observant. (Remember: Sephardi Jews actively identify as "Orthodox" regardless of their personal beliefs (such as atheism), or any real level of Jewish observance.)
Unless something amazingly wild has happened in the last elections, ultra-Orthodox Jews" do NOT "rule the Knesset and government." They DO rule the "personal status" areas of civil law when it comes to Jews (but not Christians, Muslims, Druze, Samaritans, Karaites, etc.).
There are also problems associated with ultra-Orthodox Jews when it comes to the universal military draft (especially when it comes to women and men serving together, and most especially women and men serving together in the same military units), but these problems have existed since 1948 (more or less), and on a real life basis, they get worked through (more or less).
The system "works," despite the coughs and hiccups and frustrations which always exist.
Although the Knesset and government are not "ruled" by ultra-Orthodox Jews, frequently, ultra-Orthodox Jews in the Knesset and the government have a disproportionate influence on certain government policies the ultra-Orthodox are especially concerned about (compulsory military service being Number One).
> ....the standard for orthodoxy is to still have a father and mother who are both observant Jewish
Yes, but this is highly nuanced, and it depends largely on what, particular, Orthodox community/group is involved.
In ultra-Orthodox residential areas, it could possibly affect (for example) what public schools a given child is allowed to go to. (Public schools for Orthodox children are allowed to impose their own rules on who is "Orthodox," or sufficiently Orthodox, and who is not.)
Although the system can be maddening, it is also (simultaneously) often fairly "elastic," and how "frum" ["observant"], or how "accepting," it is can come down to the area of residence: living in most of Tel Aviv (liberal, creative, accepting, iconoclastic), and living within a place like Mea Shearim or Bnai Brak (both are ultra-Orthodox enclaves), can be like living on different continents, when it comes to these kinds of issues.
> ....preferably Orthodox, which is the recognized most
> accepted sect in Israel.
Yes, of course, because in Israel, the label "Orthodox" is the default assumption if you are speaking about Judaism only, and you are speaking about legal matters (including civil law pertaining to personal matters like marriage and divorce) only.
Within Israeli Judaism, however, are Jews from the entire Jewish spectrum, from atheists, to American Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative, Secular Humanism, to all kinds of ethnically and racially disparate Jewish communities (each with their own minhag/"tradition") which come from around the world.
> It does allow immigrants to have a non-Jewish
> spouse however, for those making Aliyah if they
> meet the other requirements for immigration.
Yes, non-Jewish spouses are recognized and accepted for purposes of immigration. Once they have children, however, those laws of "personal status" go into effect, which could potentially affect which school a child is accepted at, etc.
> Those who move there under the Halacha Law of line
> of descent are discriminated once there, from what
> I've been able to glean, if they aren't Orthodox
> or have both parents who are Jewish. It may be
> subtle, but it does exist.
I think I understand what you mean, and I also think you're missing the point. If a given Jew (according to the one-in-four-grandparents rule, OR the maternal descent only rule) arrives in Israel and demands, as is their right, Israeli citizenship under the "Right of Return," that citizenship will be granted, and the "bundle of [economic and daily living-type] benefits" which are given to new immigrants will be delivered to that immigrant.
However, once that new oleh (immigrant) begins LIVING in Israel, and most especially if they have affiliated with another religion (such as Christianity), they may find practical difficulties in daily life because, although they may be legally a Jew, they are not LIVING as a Jew (they are living as a Christian)--so where they live, and how they socialize, and where their children can go to school, can be affected--but this is not substantially different than if that person were Muslim, or Zoroastrian, or Druze.
If a given oleh has used the "Right of Return" to come to Israel, to obtain Israeli citizenship and Israeli benefits, and then devotes their life to attempting to convert Jews to Christianity, that would be perceived by Israelis at large (as well as by Jews worldwide) as a shanda ("shame," this is a fairly serious word among Jews), and there could well be some harsh feelings involving Israelis, and the observation that Israel is "being used," or is being victimized, involved.
I think you are likely concerned about those who claim (and are granted) Israeli citizenship AS JEWS, but who, prior, have actively, knowingly, chosen to NOT be Jews (they have joined another religion, and frequently, they never possessed any intention of living Jewish lives, either where they came from, or in Israel).
There is a feeling that, however legal this may be according to Israeli law, it is unfair--that it is a grifting kind of misrepresentation, fraud, and attempted theft....and that Israel, and the Israeli people, are being "used" (as patsies) when this occurs.
> I also understand Reform recognizes paternal
> descent to establish Jewish parentage for children
> born to Jewish fathers.
True. So far as I am aware, Reform and Secular Jewish Humanism are the only Jewish movements which recognize paternal Jewish descent.
It also needs to be pointed out that the legal process of halachically "converting to Judaism" decisively "cures" a myriad of questions of Jewish status and Jewish legal "defects," not only in Israel, but worldwide.
When disparate Jewish communities (many of them dating from ancient times) want to immigrate to Israel, or alternatively (if they have been isolated) rejoin the global Jewish people, group "conversions" to Judaism are now routine. In 2019, "lost" or "unclear" Jewish legal status can be fairly quickly restored to meet halachic requirements among those who have, for centuries dating back to ancient times, identified as being Jewish.
[Halachic requirements for conversion to Judaism are: circumcision or symbolic circumcision for males, ritual immersion in a halachically compliant mikvah, which could well be that community's river or nearby ocean, and "appearance before a rabbinical court" (which is not anywhere near as daunting as this sounds!) so that three qualified rabbis can sign that person's legal conversion certificate.]
I recently found out about Kulanu (means: "all of us"), an organization in New York which works worldwide to bring back isolated global Jews into twenty-first century Judaism and, in some cases, to Israel (if this is their desire).
https://www.youtube.com/user/kulanuvideo
https://kulanu.org/
Personally, I was amazed by the various worldwide ethnic and racial groups who are listed in the "Communities" section--I generally consider myself to be fairly aware on this level, but I was astounded by that list of "lost Jewish" groups worldwide--all of whom identify as Jewish, and actively desire to be reunited with the Jewish people as a whole, now that this is possible. (In many cases, on certain Jewish or local holidays, and dating back to ancient or medieval times, they have been saying specific local prayers asking God to grant their reunification with the Jewish people worldwide. To them, the activities of groups like Kulanu are the LITERAL answer(s) to the countless prayers, through many centuries, of those people.)
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2019 12:16AM by Tevai.
-------------------------------------------------------
> In Israel being born of a Jewish mother is
> recognized under Halacha Law for purpose of
> emigration there.
Of course--but for purposes of immigration to Israel, if one of a given olim's [olim means: "immigrant"] four grandparents is/was Jewish, they are ALSO recognized, FOR PURPOSES OF IMMIGRATION [only], as a Jew. This was not so in the earliest days of Israel's statehood, but then it was pointed out that the "one of four grandparents" rule had been the Nazi criteria, and--if a person could die for being a Jew during the Holocaust because they had one Jewish grandparent--then it was totally unjust to deny that person Israeli citizenship because they did not fit the Halachic definition of Jewishness.
So you can immigrate as a Jew....but then not be recognized as Jew for purposes of civil law (which, for Jews, is run by the Chief Rabbinate; Muslims and Christians have their own "civil" religious authorities). This means: you may have to "fly to Cyprus" to get married, and your body may be restricted to a specific, designated, location within cemeteries if you are not halachically a Jew.
> But to the Orthodox Jews who rule the Knesset and government
On these kinds of issues, there is a substantial difference between "Orthodox" (which "everybody" is, by default) and ultra-Orthodox in Israel. "Orthodox" simply means the average, everyday, ordinary, Jewish Israeli citizen who may, or may not, be actually Jewishly observant. (Remember: Sephardi Jews actively identify as "Orthodox" regardless of their personal beliefs (such as atheism), or any real level of Jewish observance.)
Unless something amazingly wild has happened in the last elections, ultra-Orthodox Jews" do NOT "rule the Knesset and government." They DO rule the "personal status" areas of civil law when it comes to Jews (but not Christians, Muslims, Druze, Samaritans, Karaites, etc.).
There are also problems associated with ultra-Orthodox Jews when it comes to the universal military draft (especially when it comes to women and men serving together, and most especially women and men serving together in the same military units), but these problems have existed since 1948 (more or less), and on a real life basis, they get worked through (more or less).
The system "works," despite the coughs and hiccups and frustrations which always exist.
Although the Knesset and government are not "ruled" by ultra-Orthodox Jews, frequently, ultra-Orthodox Jews in the Knesset and the government have a disproportionate influence on certain government policies the ultra-Orthodox are especially concerned about (compulsory military service being Number One).
> ....the standard for orthodoxy is to still have a father and mother who are both observant Jewish
Yes, but this is highly nuanced, and it depends largely on what, particular, Orthodox community/group is involved.
In ultra-Orthodox residential areas, it could possibly affect (for example) what public schools a given child is allowed to go to. (Public schools for Orthodox children are allowed to impose their own rules on who is "Orthodox," or sufficiently Orthodox, and who is not.)
Although the system can be maddening, it is also (simultaneously) often fairly "elastic," and how "frum" ["observant"], or how "accepting," it is can come down to the area of residence: living in most of Tel Aviv (liberal, creative, accepting, iconoclastic), and living within a place like Mea Shearim or Bnai Brak (both are ultra-Orthodox enclaves), can be like living on different continents, when it comes to these kinds of issues.
> ....preferably Orthodox, which is the recognized most
> accepted sect in Israel.
Yes, of course, because in Israel, the label "Orthodox" is the default assumption if you are speaking about Judaism only, and you are speaking about legal matters (including civil law pertaining to personal matters like marriage and divorce) only.
Within Israeli Judaism, however, are Jews from the entire Jewish spectrum, from atheists, to American Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative, Secular Humanism, to all kinds of ethnically and racially disparate Jewish communities (each with their own minhag/"tradition") which come from around the world.
> It does allow immigrants to have a non-Jewish
> spouse however, for those making Aliyah if they
> meet the other requirements for immigration.
Yes, non-Jewish spouses are recognized and accepted for purposes of immigration. Once they have children, however, those laws of "personal status" go into effect, which could potentially affect which school a child is accepted at, etc.
> Those who move there under the Halacha Law of line
> of descent are discriminated once there, from what
> I've been able to glean, if they aren't Orthodox
> or have both parents who are Jewish. It may be
> subtle, but it does exist.
I think I understand what you mean, and I also think you're missing the point. If a given Jew (according to the one-in-four-grandparents rule, OR the maternal descent only rule) arrives in Israel and demands, as is their right, Israeli citizenship under the "Right of Return," that citizenship will be granted, and the "bundle of [economic and daily living-type] benefits" which are given to new immigrants will be delivered to that immigrant.
However, once that new oleh (immigrant) begins LIVING in Israel, and most especially if they have affiliated with another religion (such as Christianity), they may find practical difficulties in daily life because, although they may be legally a Jew, they are not LIVING as a Jew (they are living as a Christian)--so where they live, and how they socialize, and where their children can go to school, can be affected--but this is not substantially different than if that person were Muslim, or Zoroastrian, or Druze.
If a given oleh has used the "Right of Return" to come to Israel, to obtain Israeli citizenship and Israeli benefits, and then devotes their life to attempting to convert Jews to Christianity, that would be perceived by Israelis at large (as well as by Jews worldwide) as a shanda ("shame," this is a fairly serious word among Jews), and there could well be some harsh feelings involving Israelis, and the observation that Israel is "being used," or is being victimized, involved.
I think you are likely concerned about those who claim (and are granted) Israeli citizenship AS JEWS, but who, prior, have actively, knowingly, chosen to NOT be Jews (they have joined another religion, and frequently, they never possessed any intention of living Jewish lives, either where they came from, or in Israel).
There is a feeling that, however legal this may be according to Israeli law, it is unfair--that it is a grifting kind of misrepresentation, fraud, and attempted theft....and that Israel, and the Israeli people, are being "used" (as patsies) when this occurs.
> I also understand Reform recognizes paternal
> descent to establish Jewish parentage for children
> born to Jewish fathers.
True. So far as I am aware, Reform and Secular Jewish Humanism are the only Jewish movements which recognize paternal Jewish descent.
It also needs to be pointed out that the legal process of halachically "converting to Judaism" decisively "cures" a myriad of questions of Jewish status and Jewish legal "defects," not only in Israel, but worldwide.
When disparate Jewish communities (many of them dating from ancient times) want to immigrate to Israel, or alternatively (if they have been isolated) rejoin the global Jewish people, group "conversions" to Judaism are now routine. In 2019, "lost" or "unclear" Jewish legal status can be fairly quickly restored to meet halachic requirements among those who have, for centuries dating back to ancient times, identified as being Jewish.
[Halachic requirements for conversion to Judaism are: circumcision or symbolic circumcision for males, ritual immersion in a halachically compliant mikvah, which could well be that community's river or nearby ocean, and "appearance before a rabbinical court" (which is not anywhere near as daunting as this sounds!) so that three qualified rabbis can sign that person's legal conversion certificate.]
I recently found out about Kulanu (means: "all of us"), an organization in New York which works worldwide to bring back isolated global Jews into twenty-first century Judaism and, in some cases, to Israel (if this is their desire).
https://www.youtube.com/user/kulanuvideo
https://kulanu.org/
Personally, I was amazed by the various worldwide ethnic and racial groups who are listed in the "Communities" section--I generally consider myself to be fairly aware on this level, but I was astounded by that list of "lost Jewish" groups worldwide--all of whom identify as Jewish, and actively desire to be reunited with the Jewish people as a whole, now that this is possible. (In many cases, on certain Jewish or local holidays, and dating back to ancient or medieval times, they have been saying specific local prayers asking God to grant their reunification with the Jewish people worldwide. To them, the activities of groups like Kulanu are the LITERAL answer(s) to the countless prayers, through many centuries, of those people.)
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2019 12:16AM by Tevai.
I have to question whether lds inc. would really discipline a family search indexer. What's more likely is that they were restricted because of online fighting and name calling, trolling. Believe me there are old people with nothing to do that sit on Family Search all day long everyday, irritating each other, taking down each others names, and putting up their own ancestors on different lines. Questioning each others information incessantly. Reporting each other as being nuisances. Some of these folks are on the site 12 hours a day, and think that they are doing a service to humanity...
What supprises me is that the lds leadership doesn't see this as an addiction, or waste of time. They never get up in conference and tell the old people to find something better to do with their time, or find some actual service.
My feeling is that a whole lot more people ought to get restricted from family search.
What supprises me is that the lds leadership doesn't see this as an addiction, or waste of time. They never get up in conference and tell the old people to find something better to do with their time, or find some actual service.
My feeling is that a whole lot more people ought to get restricted from family search.
How in the world is the average LDS indexer (deluded as they are), looking for names everywhere, supposed to know all the Jewish rules and whether or not a person might have some forbidden Jewish relationship?
Are all the names submitted to the church run against some data base for Jewish-ness before they are submitted for temple shenanigans? Is it only a holocaust victim list they committed to not baptizing that must be cross checked? I assume it was just the victims, right? What is the mechanism they are supposed to be using to prevent this problem?
I'm surprised other religions or cultures don't demand the same opt out options but then it's hard to beat the offensiveness of the holocaust proxy baptisms.
Are all the names submitted to the church run against some data base for Jewish-ness before they are submitted for temple shenanigans? Is it only a holocaust victim list they committed to not baptizing that must be cross checked? I assume it was just the victims, right? What is the mechanism they are supposed to be using to prevent this problem?
I'm surprised other religions or cultures don't demand the same opt out options but then it's hard to beat the offensiveness of the holocaust proxy baptisms.
I have it on good authority that in some places in Ireland, Catholic priests are becoming very hesistant to allow access to old church records partly for this reason.
I've no idea whether that is actually true or not, but
With Jews there is an obvious issue with mass murder, but I've no idea whether anyone has ever tried applying that to genocide victims of western Armenia, Rwanda, Bosnia etc.
I've no idea whether that is actually true or not, but
With Jews there is an obvious issue with mass murder, but I've no idea whether anyone has ever tried applying that to genocide victims of western Armenia, Rwanda, Bosnia etc.
They should. There are a lot of people who suffered and died for their cultures and beliefs and causes.
I wish there were some lawyers or groups out there who could make a case on behalf of others using whatever argument worked for Jewish resistors.
It's more outrageous that they proxy dunk Jews because of the horror they faced, but it is also disrespectful to others too.
Yeah, I get it is harmless BS they are doing in the temple, but I wish people would put more pressure on them to stop for other groups too. If it became so convoluted for them to screen name to see who they can't include and they got sued a lot, maybe it would help buy them a vowel.
They could easily have one person be baptized on behalf of "all who ever lived or will be born" and be done with it. Of course that would eliminate the actual purpose of busywork and collecting tithing.
I wish there were some lawyers or groups out there who could make a case on behalf of others using whatever argument worked for Jewish resistors.
It's more outrageous that they proxy dunk Jews because of the horror they faced, but it is also disrespectful to others too.
Yeah, I get it is harmless BS they are doing in the temple, but I wish people would put more pressure on them to stop for other groups too. If it became so convoluted for them to screen name to see who they can't include and they got sued a lot, maybe it would help buy them a vowel.
They could easily have one person be baptized on behalf of "all who ever lived or will be born" and be done with it. Of course that would eliminate the actual purpose of busywork and collecting tithing.
I know little and understand less regarding this situation.
Except I remember being amused when I heard that los mormones, when told to "...Quit necro-dunking Holocaust Victims!", asked the complainant for the complete list of the Jewish Holocaust victims, so they'd know who not to necro-dunk.
I can picture the initial response as being, "Well, that's reasonable...", but then there'd be a double-take as they watched los mormones grinning and rubbing their hands together... "No! Get out of here!"
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2019 06:01PM by elderolddog.
Except I remember being amused when I heard that los mormones, when told to "...Quit necro-dunking Holocaust Victims!", asked the complainant for the complete list of the Jewish Holocaust victims, so they'd know who not to necro-dunk.
I can picture the initial response as being, "Well, that's reasonable...", but then there'd be a double-take as they watched los mormones grinning and rubbing their hands together... "No! Get out of here!"
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2019 06:01PM by elderolddog.