So which is it? Me my siblings, my Mom and Dad, all together as a forever family in the CK; or is it each of us off in our own corner of the universe creating our own Earths?

I don't see how it can be both. Sounds like a contradiction to me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2019 04:06PM by sonofthelefthand.

Stop thinking so much.

Repeat after me:

We don't understand God's ways
God will sort it out later

Lol, yeah, I've heard that one before.

It must be the latter. Because the former is impossible.

Not everyone can be together forever in a traditional (Mormon) nuclear family; the sons and daughters in one family are parents in other families, and the parents in one family are a son or a daughter in other families.

That's why not everyone can hold family reunions at the same time.

But then, from your kids perspective, they start their own, so......

I figured that out at a very early age. It's such a ridiculous notion on the face of it. It doesn't pass the red face test -- like so many other doctrines. I'm convinced that's why mormons never like to talk about the doctrines. They know they're idiotic.

THE IMPOSSIBLE DOCTRINE OF "FAMILIES ARE FOREVER"

"The plan of salvation is the fullness of the gospel. It includes the Creation, the Fall, the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and all the laws, ordinances, and doctrines of the gospel. Moral agency, the ability to choose and act for ourselves, is also essential in Heavenly Father's plan. Because of this plan, we can be perfected through the Atonement, receive a fullness of joy, and live forever in the presence of God. Our family relationships can last throughout the eternities."
— "The Plan of Salvation" - From the official website of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - www.lds.org

One of the appeals of the Mormon Church is the claim that family units can remain together for eternity. Parents can go to the temple and have their children sealed to them for eternity and when they all get to heaven they will all be together. The emotional attraction is the implication that the family unit, as it is currently constituted, can and will remain in its current form throughout all of eternity. Can Mormon doctrine actually support the claim or is it just a promotional gimmick in order to gain converts and give to the faithful warm feelings of well-being?

There are a number of questions that must be considered by Mormons in relation to what they are being taught. It is not easy to put emotions aside and actually look at the facts, but it is necessary to do so, because warm fuzzy feelings about what a person believes do not equate to the truthfulness of that belief.

WHY DO PARENTS HAVE TO BE SEALED TO THEIR CHILDREN IN THE TEMPLE IN ORDER TO BE TOGETHER FOR ETERNITY?
“In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the word sealing refers to the joining together of a man and a woman and their children for eternity. This sealing can be performed only in a temple by a man who has the priesthood, or the authority from God. According to Latter-day Saint belief, the sealing means these family relationships will endure after death if the individuals live according to the teachings of Jesus Christ. For Latter-day Saints, the family is essential to God’s plan as the most important unit both on earth and in eternity.”
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/sealing

If both parents have qualified for the Celestial Kingdom by their conduct in this life and all their children have done the same, will they not all be in the Celestial Kingdom together without a sealing? Is the Church claiming that the children they have procreated are not theirs and that somehow they will be separated in the Celestial Kingdom until they have received a “sealing” in a temple?

HOW DOES THE CONCEPT OF "FAMILY" EQUATE TO THE REALITY THAT NOT ALL FAMILY MEMBERS WILL ACHIEVE THE HIGHEST EXALTATION?
The reality is that all the members in a Mormon family will probably not attain to the same level in the heavenly sphere, regardless of any "sealing" accomplished in this life, because there are various levels of heaven to which a person may be assigned based on their performance in this life. Some may go on to exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom, rising to the highest level and become gods. Those Mormons who do not marry in this mortal life and choose to remain unmarried in heaven will become angels and will be ministering servants to other high achieving Mormons in the Celestial Kingdom. Most Mormons will only make it to the Terrestrial Kingdom, where they will reside along with most good non-Mormons as well; the benefit of being a Mormon not being any better than a non-Mormon. How any of those options can be referred to as "families forever" is a mystery. It is stated that those in the Celestial Kingdom can visit those in the lower Terrestrial kingdoms and those in the Terrestrial Kingdom can visit those in the lower Telestial Kingdom, but those in a lower Kingdom cannot visit those in a higher kingdom. A visit hardly translates into living together as a family unit.

"Those in the terrestrial kingdom shall visit those in the Telestial kingdom, and those of the celestial shall visit those in the terrestrial kingdom. Where the Father is these cannot come, . . ."
Doctrines of Salvation: Sermons and Writings of Joseph Fielding Smith, compiled by Bruce R. McConkie, Bookcraft, 1955, Vol. 2, pp. 5-6
See also: Doctrine and Covenants 76:112

If Mormons were actually honest with themselves, they would realize that no one can meet the standards for exaltation to the Celestial Kingdom mandated by the Church. No Mormon has, is now or ever will be able to keep the 10 Commandments. As such, there won’t be anyone in the Mormon Celestial Kingdom to comprise a family.

HOW DOES THE CONCEPT OF "FAMILY" EQUATE TO THE TEACHING THAT THOSE WHO DO ACHIEVE THE HIGHEST EXALTATION WILL GO TO THEIR OWN PLANETS TO PROCREATE THEIR OWN FAMILIES AND CREATE NEW WORLDS, FOR EVER?
Just as there are family members who do not achieve the same level of exaltation in heaven, there are those family members who do go on to achieve the highest exaltation to godhood, and as a consequence, they will be in the Celestial Kingdom with other family members. But they will all leave other family members behind in the Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdoms as well as those in the Celestial Kingdom.

A Father and mother will attain to their godhood and leave their children to go to their own world. A son and his wife will attain to their godhood and leave their fathers and mothers and go on to their own world. A daughter and her husband will attain to their godhood and leave their fathers and mothers and go on to their own world. All grandfathers and grandmothers will have done the same thing.

Far from the Celestial Kingdom and godhood being the means to maintain the family unit, with all sitting around the fireplace roasting marshmallows and singing “Kumbaya,” it will be the very place where all family units go and are summarily torn apart into individual parental couples and separated from each other for eternity when they become gods and have their own planets. THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM IS THE ONLY ONE OF THE THREE LEVELS OF HEAVEN WHERE IT WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE TO BE A “FAMILY FOREVER.” Those individual father and mother couples, as Gods, organize their own worlds and procreate new spirit children, worlds without end for the infinity of eternity. The Mormon Church has no doctrinal teaching about God the Father existing within the family group of His father God. His Father God’s billions of brothers and sisters and all of their progeny would make a very full house and would use quite a few marshmallows and would need a really big fireplace and really, really long sticks.

That is a major issue, because those who are exalted to godhood in the Celestial Kingdom become gods over their own worlds and the billions of children that they and their wives will procreate for eternity. It would have been hoped that their mothers and fathers and siblings would have done the same, so how are they going to be together as a family unit when they live on their own planets? Regardless of the fact that children may have been sealed to their parents in the temple, the reality is that all family members will not attain to the same position in the heavenly kingdoms and some may even become apostates and go to outer darkness with the devil and his angels.

When will the exalted gods have time for their former families, since they will be procreating an infinite number of children and creating an infinite number of worlds, from which those children are supposed to return, and it will go on forever? There will not just be millions or billions or trillions of children and worlds, but an infinite number - a number without end and this will be the case for every Mormon God.

HOW DOES THE CONCEPT OF "FAMILY" EQUATE TO A DEFINITION OF WHO WILL BE INCLUDED IN THE FAMILY UNIT?
Which family unit will be the one to which an individual will be attached? Will it be an individual's spouse and children who comprise the family unit? Will it be an individual's father and mother and siblings, including their spouses and children? Will the family unit include an individual's grandfather, grandmother, father and mother, and siblings, including spouse and children? How far does that family unit extend, both into the past and into the future?

If an individual's spouse and children compose the family unit, then what about the family unit composed by the children, their spouses and their children? Are they not entitled to the same kind of family unit? No matter where the cut-off point is established, as a definition of the family unit, someone will be denied the same type of family unit that is enjoyed by others, because a family unit is defined as having a head, which is a father. If extended families are defined as units, then who is the head and why would subsequent male children be denied the headship of their own families?

HOW DOES THE CONCEPT OF FAMILY CORRELATE IN RELATION TO THE REALITY THAT FAMILIES ARE COMPOSED OF PERSONS WHO ARE BROUGHT INTO THE FAMILY UNIT FROM ANOTHER FAMILY UNIT?
In the majority of cases, a man or woman marries a person who is not from their own family, but from another non-related family. They may even be from another country or continent, and may be from another racial group. Is not his or her father entitled to include their son or daughter in his family unit in the heavenly sphere? Does the woman defer to her husband’s father or does the husband defer to his wife’s father as the head of the family unit? The issue is that a husband and wife are united to a new family unit, part of which they have created by birthing children. Their family unit is part of two other family units in addition to their own: one unit being headed by the father of the wife’s husband, one unit being headed the father of the husband’s wife. Which family unit is going to be together for eternity as a family unit?

What happens if the woman's husband dies and she remarries and they have children? Doesn't her new husband's father have the right to include them and the adopted children in his family unit? Regardless of whether the concept of "marriage for eternity" or "marriage for time" is applied to the unions, there will be children who are denied a family with a mother or father who is their biological parent, because the families must be split into their original family units, which makes the concept of family units forever to be impossible to accomplish.

HOW DOES THE CONCEPT OF FAMILY CORRELATE IN RELATION TO POLYGAMOUS UNIONS RESULTING IN CHILDREN?
The Mormon today would immediately respond that the issue of polygamy doesn't have anything to do with their family, since they have not engaged in polygamy and the church no longer practices polygamy. It is true that the church no longer condones active polygamy and LDS Mormons do not practice polygamy, however, they did practice polygamy at one time, and the issues that come out of that practice are very real and affect those individuals and the claim that they will be a family in the heavenly realm. So, how does it work for them?

In the revelation on polygamy, said by Joseph Smith to have been given to him by God and is still part of Mormon scripture in Doctrine and Covenants as Section 132, Joseph Smith stated that God revealed the following to him:

“4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fullness of my glory; and he that receiveth fullness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.”
— Prophet Joseph Smith, Revelation given at Nauvoo, Illinois, July 12, 1842, Doctrine and Covenants 132:4-6
From the official website of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - www.lds.org

LDS Mormons do not practice polygamy today and it was suspended by the Manifestos of 1890 and 1904, but it is still official Mormon scripture and, as such, is still a necessary component of the gospel message that is a requirement for exaltation. No Mormon, even if they become the President of the church can be exalted unless they practice polygamy. Does God command conduct today that would prevent exaltation and would he contradict his own revelations?

The answer is the reason that Section 132 (the revelation on polygamy) remains in the Doctrine and Covenants as Scripture, because polygamy, although not practiced in this life, will be practiced and mandated in the next life if exaltation is to be obtained. Even now, a man whose wife has died and has been sealed to him for eternity in the temple, can return to the temple and be sealed to a new wife for eternity and both women will be his plural/polygamous wives in the next life. Mormons claim that they do not practice a physical relationship of polygamy any more, but they do allow an ecclesiastical exception to the rules that makes a polygamous relationship possible in the next life by an action in this life. This very action is now being practiced by Prophet Russell M. Nelson and Apostle Dallin H. Oaks.

Certainly not all Mormon men can take advantage of that loophole, but the claim that the Mormon Church does not condone polygamy or that somehow it is no longer a requirement or has been abolished by God, is not true. For LDS Mormons, polygamy has been set aside or delayed, but it will be a requirement and practiced in the next life, and is condoned by the Mormon Church under those conditions, and Mormons should understand that if they are going to believe Mormon doctrine, then they should believe every Mormon doctrine and they should be prepared to suffer the consequences in the next life if they believe those doctrines are true. That is why the issue of polygamy is important in relation to the "families are forever" teaching of the church.

Polygamous unions do not come about solely by a man marrying a woman who has never been married, but also by a man who may marry a woman who has been married at one time and has children. If the original husband of the woman was a faithful Mormon and married her "for eternity" in the temple and died, going on to his exaltation, then what relation will his wife and children be to him as a definition of a family unit? The standard answer from the church would be that the original husband would have the claim, since the second husband could only marry the woman for "time" only. However that ignores the problems. If the new polygamous union results in the birth of children, to which family unit will they belong - to the father's or to the mother's and her original husband? If the woman and her children from the first marriage come under the authority of the first husband, being married "for eternity," then where do the children of the second marriage reside? They cannot be legitimately claimed by the first husband, since he was not the father and has no authority. If they are claimed by him and become part of his family unit, then those children do not live with their real father, but with a step-father. If they are claimed by the second husband, since he is the father, then the children have no real mother residing in the family unit. In any case, the concept of eternal family units is broken.

In the case of Prophet Joseph Smith, he participated in polyandry, which is a woman having more than one husband at the same time. Joseph Smith did that 11 times and Brigham Young did it 6 times. That becomes an even more difficult problem in the heavenly sphere, especially if children resulted from all of the unions. Who will be the head of the family if there are different fathers? The problem is the same as in the polygamous remarriage union, noted above.

For the Mormon today, the issue does not seem relevant, but in the heavenly realm, to which they believe they will be resurrected, polygamy will be the requirement and a new wife, or wives, will be added to the family unit. That becomes a very real problem, as well as the problem presented by polygamous unions in this temporal life, noted in the next section.

HOW DOES THE CONCEPT OF FAMILY CORRELATE IN RELATION TO "BLENDED FAMILIES" RESULTING FROM THE UNION OF BROKEN FAMILIES AND THE ADOPTION OF CHILDREN FROM OTHER FAMILIES?
"Blended families" can result from a number of causes. The primary cause would probably be from the death of a husband in one family and the death of a wife in another family and the subsequent marriage to each other of the surviving spouses or the result of divorces.

The issue is not as simple as some ecclesiastical legality by which it can be determined which husband and wife should be joined for eternity in the heavenly sphere based on a temple marriage. It might be very easy to determine which spouses were joined in the temple "for eternity" and then determine the composition of the family unit based on that criteria. However that does not deal with the issue in relation to the children, whose second family may be the only one that they have ever known, and their step-father or step-mother the only father or mother that they have ever seen or known. Spending a lifetime in a family in which a person grows to adulthood, marries and has children, only to find that there is a question of whether they are in the right family unit or not, is a very large problem. If the original fathers and mothers were married for eternity, then the adopted blended family would be separated in the heavenly sphere, a new father or mother would be assigned that children may never have known, and the concept of a family being together for eternity would be just a sham.

But there is the additional problem that is also present in polygamous unions, because if there are children born into the "blended" family unit, then how are they going to be related to a family unit in which their mother or father may be separated into another family unit in order to satisfy the requirements of the original family units where there were marriages "for eternity" before they were "blended" into another?

Some doctrines may sound so good because they seem to solve one problem, but they always take a person to other places, and sometimes those places are in the world of the irrational and such is the case with the concept of Mormon Families Forever.

All very good points. I hadn't considered the other aspects. None of it makes any sense when you get into specifics.

Just wondering if anybody has further thoughts. Yes, doctrine-wise (pun very unintended), it is so ridiculous. My particular interest is what the average Mormon in the pew thinks about all this--if he dares to.

Very special thanks to Snowowl for such serious, detailed, and insightful analysis.

It’s in Rivendell. You better learn some elvish.

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It’s in Rivendell. You better learn some elvish.

Now that is truly a beautiful place I could get enthused about going to. I will Learn Elvish for that!!!

In Paragraph #9 ["HOW DOES THE CONCEPT OF "FAMILY" EQUATE TO THE TEACHING THAT THOSE WHO DO ACHIEVE THE HIGHEST EXALTATION..."], you came close to addressing something I have long wondered about. Perhaps you have some insight.

For argument's sake, let's assume that a man and woman on earth are temple-married and actually live the perfect earthly life of obeying all commandments in thought and deed, the Word of Wisdom, every law and covenant there is, etc. This couple is so righteous, even their children are perfectly obedient!

Now (let's skip the obvious jokes, please!) they die and enter into the 3rd level of the CK. There, as an exalted family, they enjoy all "the rights and privileges" of fellowship with Heavenly Father. My questions:

1) Do they start producing their own spirit children in Elohim's spiritual realm?

2) Or, applying the law (?) of Eternal Progression, do they go off to some part of the Cosmos to organize ingelligences into world(s?) of their own, and THEN start producing their own spirit children?

3) This is the big one: Who determines -- and when and HOW -- that this Exalted Couple get to leave Elohim and become gods & goddesses in their own right? Does Elohim say, "You've been learning your god-craft very well for 500 million years now, there's a nice piece of Cosmos in the X83VB462BY938M Quadrant--go, be gods, and create!" Or do they just "evolve" into a higher degree/level of exaltation?

And lastly, 4) Do they take their exalted children with them? Or do they stay behind and help Elohim with Planet Earth? (Thus breaking up this perfect celestial family.)

SnowOwl, you did a great job of explaining the minutia of the whole CK thing, and the intrinsic problems. There aren't any valid answers to my questions, but I'm wondering if there are any teachings from any reputable LDS source.

Good job, and thanks!

THIS ONE IS REALLY LONG ALSO. GO GET A CUP OF COFFEE.

Those are very good questions caffiend. At best, we can only speculate about answers. All of the ideas came from the mind of Joseph Smith and he never took any of his revelations and teachings to their logical ends. Since he was simply fabricating everything on the fly, what he was teaching was only for the moment and no one was supposed to critically evaluate what he said for the future. That is similar to an author writing a book of fiction or a TV program when the final chapter or episode is a cliff hanger and the storyline has not been resolved. Everyone wants to know what happened. The problem is the characters in the story were not real so nothing could have happened because the author did not continue the story. The storyline could only be resolved by the original author, not by someone else. It is pointless to speculate.

However, in the case of Joseph Smith his claims were that the Book of Mormon was actual history and all of his teachings were real authentic revelations from a God who was real. So, there was to be a continuation of the story, but Joseph never completed his teachings and revelations and everyone has been left with a mass of information that is contradictory and never resolved.

That is similar to Mormon theology today when followers are supposed to simply follow the prophet and believe what is presented for the moment. They are supposed to read the Book of Mormon and believe it is true, but they have to ignore the contradictions and never question why the issues are not resolved or why the God and Jesus that Joseph presented there are different from the God and Jesus in the Church today. In addition they must overlook the reality that the majority of Mormon Doctrines and the Gospel message taught in the Church today are not found in the Book of Mormon. The resolution in the Book of Mormon was supposed to be the restoration of the original Christian church and the gospel that had been lost but that was not the case. Joseph began to write again through his stories, teachings and revelations and everything changed. But followers are not to question, only believe what is taught at the moment, never think about a final resolution and ignore the contradictions to the past.

So, can we actually come up with real answers to the questions? Not really, but we can deal with the contradictions and logical conclusions based on the evidence presented in the claims. However, since the claims of Joseph Smith contradict each other and it does not seem to matter in the Church, who knows where he would have gone with his theology if he had lived to old age? That is the greatest unknown.

** 1) Do they start producing their own spirit children in Elohim's spiritual realm?
** 2) Or, applying the law (?) of Eternal Progression, do they go off to some part of the Cosmos to organize intelligences into world(s?) of their own, and THEN start producing their own spirit children?

I will put these two questions together since they are related.

The story says that God the Father and his wives produce spirit babies in his spiritual realm of whom all humanity are a part, but there is no reference to exalted human Gods returning to the Father and producing their own children in that realm. If human Gods were returning to the Father’s spiritual realm, then they would be procreating an untold number of spirit babies that would be sent to an earth to experience their mortal probation and return to their Father God who would be in the spiritual realm with their Father God and that would happen for an infinity of time. That would appear to be a very confusing situation. The real question is; Where is the Celestial Kingdom, God the Father’s planet or somewhere else? That question does not actually have a resolution.

Early Mormons seemed to know things that have been removed from Church teachings today. They defined where God the Father lives (Mt.Paran/Kolob), the planet on which he was born (Teman) and also where his Father God lives (Teman). Since that is the case, God the Father is not living or procreating his spirit children on the same planet with his Father God so I don’t think it can be presumed that exalted Mormon Gods will be procreating spirit babies on God the Father’s planet. They will be procreating on the own planet, but that does not mean that they might not start procreating on God the Father’s planet; however, they would have to eventually take those spirit children with them to their new planet or leave them behind. That seems like a very poor idea for God the Father to implement.

“The nearest ‘fixed star’ must be Mount Paran, mentioned by Habakkuk, the fruitful world of glory where the ‘Holy One’ came from; or rather Kolob, where our Father in the Heavens resides in the midst of his glory and kingdoms. The next nearest ‘fixed star,’ also mentioned by Habakkuk, must be Teman, the world of perfection God came from to do the works of his Father, spoken of by John the Revelator, [Rev. 1.6,] which Father of God, and the grandfather of Jesus Christ, must now be living, is one of the eternity of eternities—which closes the Lord’s prayer in the Greek version, and is mentioned by John [Rev. 19—3, &c.]”
W.W. Phelps, Deseret Almanac, 1852, p. 5

Teman, God the Father’s birth planet, is apparently where records are kept. Which ones are unknown.
“In his mansion with my mother
As I sat upon her knee! —
Sacred records kept in ‘Teman,’
Till the flesh has conquered sin,
By the Priesthood, faith and virtue. —
Then I’ll know them all again!”
W.W. Phelps, Deseret Almanac, 1854, p. 8

W.W. Phelps’ source came from a complete misunderstanding of his reading of Habakkuk 3:3 in the Old Testament. That seems to be the standard operating procedure for Mormon apologists from the earliest days of the Church.

Brigham Young essentially taught the same thing also based on his misrepresentation of Habakkuk 3.3
“Our former religious traditions has taught us that our Father in heaven has no tabernacle, that his center is everywhere and his circumference nowhere. Yet we read that “God came from Teman, and the Holy One from Mount Paran.” . . . The idea that the Lord our God is not a personage of tabernacle is entirely a mistaken notion. He was once a man.”
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, “True Character of God—Erroneous Ideas Entertained Towards Him,” February 23, 1862, vol 9, p. 286

In that quote you may notice that Brigham Young denies that God is a Spirit, taught in the Book of Mormon, that had previously been taught in the Church and he substituted Joseph Smith’s third definition of God – “The idea that the Lord our God is not a personage of tabernacle is entirely a mistaken notion. He was once a man.” So, the Book of Mormon was not correct and even Joseph Smith’s second definition of God as a spirit, in the Lectures on Faith, 1835, was wrong as well. Mormons claim to believe the Book of Mormon, but even Brigham Young revealed that he did not believe what it said on the issue of the nature of God and neither did Joseph Smith and modern day Mormons cannot believe it either. The Book of Mormon as authoritative Scripture was thrown under the bus very early in Church history. Just as the authority of the Bible was replaced by the authority of the Book of Mormon, the authority of the Book of Mormon was replaced by the authority of the Prophets. Once a Prophet dies, the new Prophet has the authority to change or deny any teaching or revelation given by any previous Prophet or any statement written in the Book of Mormon.

** 3) This is the big one: Who determines -- and when and HOW -- that this Exalted Couple get to leave Elohim and become gods & goddesses in their own right? Does Elohim say, "You've been learning your god-craft very well for 500 million years now, there's a nice piece of Cosmos in the X83VB462BY938M Quadrant--go, be gods, and create!" Or do they just "evolve" into a higher degree/level of exaltation?

I think it must be a given that God the Father ultimately makes all the decisions. He decides which spirits, when and in what order they are sent to earth to inhabit the temporal bodies of human babies. He judges the conduct of spirits in the preexistence, such as condemning Lucifer and the rebellious spirit children in the War in Heaven. He assigns various shades of color corresponding to the skin color of their temporal bodies, determining their ethnicity and the place where they will be born on the earth based on their conduct during the War in Heaven and their actions and devotion in general. (“That’s not official doctrine! We never taught that! It was all just speculation!”) He apparently determines the life span of every individual. He, along with Jesus and Joseph Smith are the judges who determine if individual Mormons have done enough to qualify for the forgiveness of sins (Mormon grace) and are worthy to be exalted and enter the Celestial Kingdom. It is taken for granted that it is God the Father who confers godhood on his children because he is the only one with the power to do so.

God the Father apparently judges his children on three levels: (1) the preexistence, (2) the temporal world, and (3) the heavenly world. In the heavenly world he also makes four decisions and assigns persons to (1) the Telestial Heaven, (2) Terrestrial Heaven, (3) Celestial Kingdom, (4) Outer Darkness.
He also makes decisions in relation to the Celestial Kingdom which has three levels, none of which have been officially defined. That is another area for speculation.

The Elements of the Eternal Progression are the constituent parts of the Gospel that are duties of the performance of certain actions mandated through their mediation by the Church. Church leadership determines what those actions are and informs the membership. Those principles are said to be eternal, without an explanation for their origin, and are supposedly transmitted through the infinite ages by revelation by means of an infinite number of succeeding generations of Gods speaking through the prophets on their individual planets. During earthly mortal probation, those duties are step-by-step in nature, similar to precept upon precept and defined by the term Progression. Persons move from lower levels of knowledge to higher levels and lower expectations of performance to the highest expectations of performance. This is probably most evident in the requirement that everyone must keep the Ten Commandments.
Question: “How many commandments do you need to keep?
Answer: “All of them.”
Question: “How are you doing with that?”
Answer: “I’m trying. It’s hard to do.”
Question: “When do you think you will be able keep all of them?”
Answer: “Well, I’m working on it. But it will take some time.”
Question: “How much time do you have?”
Answer: “?”

The problem with the Eternal Progression is that it takes time. If there is not enough time, then the performance is not enough and a person cannot qualify for the goal of exaltation. But keeping the Ten Commandments is actually an impossibility regardless of the amount of time available. The objective is a standard that is higher than can be attained.

Standards of performance are applied in the preexistence, in mortal existence and presumed to apply in Celestial existence as well. All of the performance standards that were attained in mortal existence that qualified a person for exaltation must be maintained in the Celestial existence as well or the requirements have not been met and exaltation cannot be justified. Any additional performance standards and their definitions that might be required in the Celestial Kingdom are unknown.

There is an interesting debate within Mormonism that I do not believe has been officially resolved. The debate is in regards to the nature of God. Is he fully progressed and perfected as a God, having all knowledge and power or is he progressive as a God gradually increasing in knowledge and power?

“Orson Pratt, however, taught that the Gods were not progressing in knowledge:
‘The Father and the Son do not progress in knowledge and wisdom, because they already know all things past, present, and to come. . . . Now we wish to be distinctly understood that each of these personal Gods has equal knowledge with all the rest; there are none among them that are in advance of the others in knowledge; though some may have been Gods as many millions of years, as there are particles of dust in all the universe, yet there is not one truth that such are in possession of but what every other God knows. They are all equal in knowledge, and in wisdom, and in the possession of that truth. None of these Gods are progressing in knowledge: neither can they progress in the acquirement of any truth’”
Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 117
As quoted in: The Salt Lake City Messenger, vol. 9, September 1966
www.utlm.org/newsletters/pdfnewsletters/9saltlakecitymessenger.pdf

“Brigham Young openly differed with Orson Pratt on this issue. In a sermon delivered in the Tabernacle on January 13, 1867, Brigham Young stated: ‘. . . Brother Orson Pratt, has in theory, bounded the capacity of God. According to his theory, God can progress no further in knowledge and power; but the God that I serve is progressing eternally, and so are his children: they will increase to all eternity, if they are faithful.’”
Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 286
As quoted in: The Salt Lake City Messenger, vol. 9, September 1966
www.utlm.org/newsletters/pdfnewsletters/9saltlakecitymessenger.pdf

If God the Father is progressive in nature, then all of his exalted sons and daughters are also progressive in nature as well as all of the infinitude of other Gods who are already in existence and everything is connected to the elements of the Eternal Progression. What those elements might be in the Celestial Kingdom are unknown. That would not answer the question of when godhood is granted but it would explain to a certain degree just how deficient and incomplete the Gods of Mormonism might be. I would not consider that to be a case of an evolving God, but a case of a God moving on to a higher plane based on accomplishing specific works that qualify to higher levels of existence that are then granted by the
Father God.

Gospel Topics on the Church website has an article, “God the Father,” that states “He is perfect, has all power, and knows all things,” and cites Doctrine and Covenants 130 as the foundation. The article states: “He is the ultimate Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things.” In point of fact, that statement is actually not true. God, in historic Mormon theology, is not a Creator; he is an organizer of existing matter into different structures. They have redefined “organizer” to be a “creator” and that is a deception. He is also not the “Ruler, and Preserver of all things.” In Mormon theology there is an infinitude of Gods existing somewhere who are also Rulers and Preservers of their own worlds and are part “of all things” and God the Father has nothing to do with them or their worlds. He may be a Ruler and Preserver of this world, but that is all. It appears that the church is attempting to make itself to be more mainstream by presenting a God who looks like the traditional Christian God and they don’t mind twisting the truth in order to do it.

I must also note, that a man and his wife both have to qualify to be exalted at roughly the same time and how they do that is somewhat of a mystery. How long does a husband or wife have to wait for their partner to get up to speed with them? Of course one partner may die before the other. But what happens if one or the other never qualifies before they die? Does the one who is left find a mate in the Celestial Kingdom?

Heber C. Kimball, who gave his fourteen year old daughter as a wife to Joseph Smith, gave a sermon in the Tabernacle in which he said the following:
“In the spirit world there is an increase of males and females, there are millions of them, and if I am faithful all the time, and continue right along with brother Brigham, we will go to brother Joseph and say, ‘Here we are brother Joseph; we are here ourselves are we not, with none of the property we possessed in our probationary state, not even the rings on our fingers?’ He will say to us, ‘Come along, my boys, we will give you a good suit of clothes. Where are your wives?’ ‘They are back yonder; they would not follow us.’ ‘Never mind,’ says Joseph, ‘here are thousands, have all you want.’ Perhaps some do not believe that, but I am just simple enough to believe it.”
Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, February 1, 1857.
Reported by G. D. Watt.
Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 209
jod.mrm.org/4/207

Apparently Heber C. Kimball is referring to the Celestial Kingdom where there are millions of males and females still being born. Who the parents might be he does not explain. But it would seem that they should still be spirits and it seems they haven’t gone through their mortal probation, so how they could become wives to Heber C. Kimbal and Brigham Young is a mystery. But that is the reason that Mormons today are not advised to read the Journal of Discourses.

There is a very interesting and pivotal issue in Mormon theology that does have a bearing on the question of how long it takes a person to become a God in the Celestial Kingdom. I don’t know if you have ever thought about this, but strangely enough the issue is in relation to the receipts of the Aaronic Priesthood and Melchizedek Priesthood by Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Supposedly John the Baptist appeared to Joseph Smith on May, 15 1829 and conferred the Aaronic Priesthood on both of them. Sometime later, Peter, James and John appeared to them and conferred the Melchizedek Priesthood on them.

In the narratives expressed by both Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery is a very interesting problem. In his account, Joseph Smith says that John the Baptist was a “messenger,” “The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament…”
Pearl of Great Price, “Joseph Smith – History,” ch. 1. V. 72.

Oliver Cowdery said that John the Baptist was an “angel,” “Twas the voice of an angel from glory. . .” Pearl of Great Price, “Joseph Smith – History,” ch.1, v. 75 addendum from: “Messenger and Advocate,” vol. 1 (October 1834), pp. 14–16.

There is no official narrative or date given regarding the appearance of Peter, James and John other than statements that they did appear and conferred the Melchizedek Priesthood on Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Their names are given but no explanation as to their official capacity, i.e. angel, messenger, etc. Supposedly they were sent from heaven to do the job. The narratives of those two events have massive problems in relation to the validity of the Priesthood claimed to be possessed by the Mormon Church today.

It had been 1700 years since the deaths of the four visitors, but none were referred to as exalted gods. Oliver specifically stated that John the Baptist was and angel, so he could not have been a god. How could it be that four of the most important men in the Scripture, who were closely associated with Jesus, had not yet received their godhood? Jesus said that John the Baptist was greater than any man that had ever been born (Matthew 11:11) and the three apostles had been the closest to Jesus.

If it takes more than 1700 years for those four men to become gods, how long does it take for the everyday garden variety Mormon to become a god? Apparently those four had not qualified, so the standard being applied by God the Father must be stricter in the Celestial Kingdom than on earth. Human beings are said to be able to attain to the Celestial Kingdom (and godhood) in a very short lifetime, but the appearance of those four men reveals that actual attainment to godhood is a much more lengthy process.

Now the real problem found in the receipts of the Priesthood is that Joseph Smith created the story several years after the establishment of the Church in order to give himself the appearance of having more power and authority to grant to others. At the time Joseph Smith created the story he was still using his traditional Christian concept of heaven and had not yet invented the Three Levels of Heaven and exaltation to godhood in the Celestial Kingdom. The Three Levels of Heaven are not found in the Book of Mormon and reveal that the concept developed after the Book of Mormon was completed and printed. If the Book of Mormon is said to contain the “fullness of the gospel” and represents the gospel found and taught in the early Christian church then the later addition of the Three Levels of Heaven, the Celestial Kingdom and exaltation to godhood in that kingdom are doctrines fabricated by Joseph Smith. The persons in the Book of Mormon would not have had any knowledge or conception of that type of heaven or exaltation to godhood.

Since Joseph Smith created the story after the Church had been founded and before he changed his concept of heaven, then it is no wonder that the heavenly visitors were not Gods. But he later claimed that his new definitions were true, so they should have been Gods or else it really does take a long time after exaltation to become a God for real. Creating new doctrines after the fact that contradict earlier doctrines was nothing new for Joseph Smith.

** And lastly, 4) Do they take their exalted children with them? Or do they stay behind and help Elohim with Planet Earth? (Thus breaking up this perfect celestial family.)

I think that the presumption of Church members since the imposition of the concept of attainment to godhood has been that exaltation and godhood were synonymous events. I know that is not a settled issue in the Church, but there does not seem to be any official pronouncement that there is another period of progression to eventual godhood after exaltation. However, there are said to be three levels in the Celestial Kingdom, that are undefined, but may represent three levels of progression – the third level being godhood.

What is known is that godhood does happen in the Celestial Kingdom but also that there can be individuals in the Celestial Kingdom who are not gods, so exaltation may not include godhood at the same time.

“Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.”
Joseph Smith, “Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843,” Doctrine and Covenants, section 132, vv. 15-17

Another issue that has different views in the Church is the question of whether there is the possibility that persons can improve their position in the heavenly realm, i.e. move from the Telestial Kingdom to the Terrestrial Kingdom or from the Terrestrial Kingdom to the Celestial Kingdom. There is the teaching that Mormon missionaries, apparently exalted Mormons, go to the lower two kingdoms in order to preach the Mormon Gospel giving those persons a second chance to believe. That is why proxy baptism for the dead exists, because if they believe they need to be baptized but that cannot be done in heaven, only on earth.
The argument is, what would be the reason for a person to believe if they remain in the same lower kingdom? Belief should accomplish something and that should be elevation to a higher level.

The question of whether the exalted Gods take their children with them or leave them behind is predicated on when and if the persons in the Celestial Kingdom procreate children. If the exalted couples do not immediately become Gods but it takes “X” number of years to do so, can they procreate children before becoming Gods? Or, are they restricted as to procreation until they become Gods and do they have children while still in the Celestial Kingdom before going to their own planet? Or, do they leave those children behind?
Since this is one of Joseph Smith’s fictional stories, the answers are not really available since he did not finish the book. However, there are some issues that are very problematic:

(1) How big is God the Father’s planet if it is the Celestial Kingdom?
God the Father and his wives have been procreating the spirits of all human beings for an unknown length of time. Were they all procreated as a complete group before God the Father started sending them to earth or have they been procreating continuously? Well God the Father must be made of super refined steel if he can keep up with the birth rate on this planet which is about 4.3 births per second. God must be moving really fast.

I think the presumption is that God the Father has been procreating children for billions or trillions of years which would necessitate a very large planet to hold all of his children. I think the current estimate is that there have existed approximately 110 billion people on the earth until the current time. If the Celestial Kingdom is God the Father’s planet Kolob and exalted Mormons are procreating spirit children there then the planet must be really huge. If it takes those same Mormons thousands of years to attain their Godhood, then the numbers of spirit children being born would be astronomical. This does not seem like a good plan.

(2) If the above is true and the Gods leave those children behind, what happens to them? They are orphans. Yes, the family would be broken. How could they ever return to their parents? Where do they go through their mortal probation and who sends them? If the Gods are procreating these children in the Celestial Kingdom for thousands or “X” number of years, can it be presumed that the earth will still be here? Is God the Father presumed to be their celestial babysitter? To whom do they give worship and pray? Is it God the Father who is their grandfather or their Father God whom they may not even know? Did Jesus die for their sins or is it the new Jesus on the parent’s planet who dies for their sins?

In the Eternal Progression, each new God has a planet just like God the Father. Spirit children are born there. The Father God calls a great convocation and solicits volunteers to be the Savior. The Jesus and Lucifer on that planet submit their plans. The Father chooses Jesus and Lucifer rebels. There is a great war in heaven and one-third of the angels side with Lucifer. Jesus and God win the war. Lucifer and the rebellious angels are cast out of heaven. Lucifer becomes Satan and the angels become demons. God the Father and select sons, including the Joseph Smith on that planet, organize an earth. The Father sends an Adam and Eve to that earth and they are infused with the temporal nature of that earth and assume temporal bodies and become human beings. Adam and Eve “transgress” the command of God and fall upward in their attempt to become Gods. God punishes them even though they were attempting to understand and pursue the precepts of the Eternal Progression. As a result of their “transgression” they understand the meaning of good and evil. Prior to that understanding they were unable to procreate children even though God commanded them to do so. Now they have the ability to procreate the temporal bodies of babies into which God the Father can begin sending the other spirit babies who are actually the brothers and sisters of Adam and Eve. The Eternal Progression begins on that earth, an eternal law that has existed for the infinity of time past and preceded the existence of any man or God. Those children follow the Eternal Gospel, qualify for their exaltation and the process begins again for them and all of their posterity.

This whole process has been going on from the infinity of eternity past and will continue into the infinity of eternity future. Mormonism is the most polytheistic religion on the planet, postulating an infinitude of gods without beginning or end.

Everything is so confusing because Joseph Smith was creating his own religion as he went along. He began with what he thought he knew about Christianity and used that to write the Book of Mormon, but his understanding was deeply flawed. It did not matter to him because he was gaining followers because of his charismatic personality. Then he redefined all of the Christian theological concepts and terminology
that he thought he understood to be just the opposite of what they actually were. Much of that went into the Book of Mormon and much of it went into the confusing nonsense of the fabricated “translation” of the Book of Abraham.

Joseph Smith’s new definitions and theology were not enough for him because they were too confining and did not differentiate him far enough away from his traditional roots. So, he began adding and subtracting from his new and confusing “theology” by means of his revelations. He was not only creating a new religious system for his followers, he was creating a new theocratic social system and also satisfying his own egotistical needs and justifying his own aberrant conduct by means of those same “revelations.” Joseph Smith was using his new God as his “right hand man” by claiming everything he presented was from God.

“I combat the errors of ages; I meet the violence of mobs; I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority; I cut the gordian knot of powers, and I solve mathematical problems of universities, with truth-diamond truth; and God is my ‘right hand man.’"
Joseph Smith, The History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 78

Truly, Joseph Smith thought of God as his “right hand man” because his third definition of God was that God was a man. In point of fact Joseph’s new God conducts himself very much like Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith’s new God creates a lie, tells another to speak the lie and then for them to tell another to speak the lie. Joseph Smith’s new God is incestuous as well, having literal sexual relations with his daughter Mary in order to procreate the temporal body of Jesus.

“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.”
Joseph Smith, April 2, 1843, Doctrine & Covenants 130:22

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret.”
Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3, 1844

The Celestial Kingdom is one of the most hodge-podge collections of improbabilities that a person can imagine. But like I noted in my first post, if the requirements of the Mormon Gospel are necessary to accomplish in order to go to the Celestial Kingdom then no Mormon will ever go there, because the standard is impossible to attain. The Celestial Kingdom is the only one of the three levels of heaven where it will be impossible for families to be together. It is the place where families will go in order to be destroyed, not preserved. But the Celestial Kingdom is only one of Joseph Smith’s stories that sprang out of his mind and does not actually exist. In the Mormon Church there is so much work, time and money being spent by so many dedicated people in the attempt to qualify and go to a fantasy world that does not exist. Very sad.

An infinite number of gods, each creating worlds without number.
Yup. That makes perfect sense.

You can teletransport to anyone that you're sealed to. So that means that you can visit with members of your birth family anytime you want and also visit with whatever family you married into, as well as members of the extended families of both...BUT only to those who were found worthy to be members of "ETERNAL" families.

I think the doctrine of teletransportation goes far (pun intended) toward explaining how it all works. But I feel bad that I had to make it all up by myself. When you think of how much tithing people pay to the Church and its leaders, it's kind of irritating to see how little effort the leaders put into making up doctrine. They've been shrugging their shoulders and saying "we don't know much about it" for about 100 years now. Bunch of lazy butts! At least Joseph Smith and Brigham Young pretended to pull new and profound doctrines out of their butts like every other month. But the modern leaders can't be bothered to even fake it.

Wally Prince Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can teletransport to anyone that you're sealed
> to. So that means that you can visit with members
> of your birth family anytime you want and also
> visit with whatever family you married into, as
> well as members of the extended families of
> both...BUT only to those who were found worthy to
> be members of "ETERNAL" families.

You might be on to something, Wally. Instead of saying, "It will all make sense in the afterlife," they could have said, "This is spiritual phenomenon which transcends and surpasses the laws of physics as we understand them in conventional scientific terms." Similarly, they could say, "There are cosmic connections in family relationships that human family organization is a mere shadow of..."

Now THAT would make some sense.
>
They've been
> shrugging their shoulders and saying "we don't
> know much about it" for about 100 years now. Bunch
> of lazy butts! ... But
> the modern leaders can't be bothered to even fake
> it.

An hypothesis: Smith, being a conman, was adept at making up stories he sensed people could, or wanted to, believe. BY was a tyrant and used myth(s) to bolster his authority. But the 20th & 21st Century leaders have been, increasingly, businessmen who focused more on the elaborate administration of a large corporation. As younger men, they developed skills at meeting performance goals to the neglect of the underlying psychology and religiosity of a movement.

I'm still curious to know if anybody has any teaching about the transition from Elohim's CK to "worlds without end."

This is what I'd say if I were the prophet: "Just as human, earthly existence is a testing and training ground for us to develop our worthiness -- think of it as the skillset of righteousness--if you make it to the 3rd Ring of the CK, Elohim will personally, lovingly develop you for your own realms of majesty. We're talking about eternities here--note the plural--don't even try to think of this in terms of Earth years."

Now if a never-Mo can come up with that, why can't the living prophet of the One True Church? Maybe his pen's battery died.

I've made jokes about getting your planet, and then your brother-in-law who you really can't stand gets the planet RIGHT NEXT DOOR! Celestial BBQ's are horrible with that blowhard bragging about the flood HE just made to wipe out the sinners on his planet, and how he won't need a savior because the remaining people are his favorite kids and they're perfect.


But snowowl's points are great: While apologists might say that everyone will have eternity to go and visit their quadrillions of relatives, I suspect most TBM's picture the Heartsell™ pictures of happy families all dressed in white having some kind Celestial FHE; but how will they all figure it out when Mom and Dad start their own planet and a billion other kids--and what's worse, how will they feel when those kids start to rebel, first in Heaven, and later on the new planet, and they resort to killing them off with floods or fire and brimstone from the sky, and then later kill off their favorite son to atone for the sins of all the survivors who sinned again anyway after the horrible life-lessons of all that flooding and brimstoning?

Or, the Church™ just says it' all metaphorical and throws the actual words of JS and BY & Co. out the temple window....

Life in the Celestial Kingdom with my grandma... I couldn't think of anything more cruel or hellish than being stuck with grandma for eternity. This would be the same grandma that locked my mom in closets and beat her with hair brushes for not sitting at the dinner table correctly while grandpa just sat and watched. Grandma Billy wasn't allowed to watch us or be alone with us
as kids for good reasons... I need excommunication quick! Any suggestions?

Yeah, there are lots of relatives I would not want to live with in the CK!

Not defend Mormonism's doctrines, but maybe celestial exaltation gives one the ability to be everywhere at all times, even with a physical body.

Or maybe "being with Heavenly Father" actually means being WITHIN Heavenly Father -- where our molecular matter and our consciousness are reabsorbed into Him. All those godlike properties we supposedly get are God's. Maybe that's why we can't be "with" Him if we're not perfect.

Yeah, maybe. Or more likely, it's just stupid.

(I particularly like the "why we've got to be perfect" theory. How ironic that the more Mormon-perfect a person is the more deplorable they are in real life (looking at you Bednar), or they've got some skeletons deep in the closet)

But on second thought, the absorbed by God-consciousness theory is rather Buddhist or Hindu adjacent. In other words, it's an idea that didn't come from Mormonism but came from other theories currently floating around--I doubt JS was concerning himself with what became of our "molecular matter" since he had no idea what that was. Why give Mormonism credit for the ideas you're coming up with to excuse their un-thought-out nonsense?

If there is no conflict in 2 bodies and 3 spirits inhabiting one supreme mind I don't see any other thing following from that a conflict worth worrying about.

Each couple will have their own universe. Once a year, sometime around summer solstice, you will get together with your extended family and snap a photo to post of facebook. That place has not currently revealed to the brethren or it is not currently emphasized. On winter solstice, you will send out an email to your extended family's universes, bragging about how much your Jesus has accomplished that year, how many spirit children you have created, and how many planets are habitable for human life. This is the true order of things. Amen.

blueskyutah2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Each couple will have their own universe. Once a
> year, sometime around summer solstice, you will
> get together with your extended family and snap a
> photo to post of facebook.

Without losing a hair of your head the Kolobian version of Facebook will be very cousin It-ish.

Just wondering if anybody has further thoughts. Yes, doctrine-wise (pun very unintended), it is so ridiculous. My particular interest is what the average Mormon in the pew thinks about all this--if he dares to.

Very special thanks to Snowowl for such serious, detailed, and insightful analysis.